Muslim propaganda event at my school

[AbeOman]

It is his claim that Muslims are unwilling to discuss the Trinity and accept it as a truth in dialogue.

According to Marco Politi, the Vatican expert for the Italian daily La Repubblica: “Certainly he closes the door to an idea which was very dear to John Paul II - the idea that Christians, Jews and Muslims have the same God and have to pray together to the same God.”
clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2007/10/vatican-rebuffs-muslim-outreach-quran.html

I agree with you and thanks so much for posting that long and detailed article, though my most basic argument of the same “Worshiping the same God” will be based on this verse from the Bible “Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth” (John 4:22-24)

That is from Catholic point of view of my understanding and honestly I don’t see much difference what the Quran teaches though the it lies the emphasis on the “Oneness” of God and discarding the Trinity, here I beleive is the biggest difference.

Thanks again,

 

[Valke2]

It can also be argued that Jews, Protestants and Orthodox Christians also do not worship the same God we do.

I spoke to my GOd today. He assured me we are worshipping the same being.

 

[exoflare]

You are correct that the word “propaganda” is in itself neutral, however it is quite obvious that the original poster meant it in a negative light, after all if anyone ever posted here that the Catholics answers program was a “propaganda” organization then we would have much people here screaming up a storm.

If Catholics proselytized the same way Muslims did, the way I outlined in the first two posts, it would be reasonable to call it “propaganda”. BUT… I think it’s very easy to see the word “propaganda” in my thread title and jump to the (purely emotional) conclusion that it MUST be unwarranted.

 

[Montalban]

look let’s settle this once and for all you don’t like Islam or Muslims that is your problem, live with it, just leave me out of it. in other words, I like to forum and have made friends and would like to stick around so please for my sake, don’t insult me…meaning don’t insult my religion, why don’t you learn from the few Muslims on this site who will never insult Catholism or Christianity because that is un Islamic.

If you can’t answer questions and wish to offer supposition (as to motives) that’s up to you.

I thought I could debate with you but it’s almost impossible and everyone of us will eventually carry or bear his own cross (from the bible) so let’s not get into any situations. OK

Probably your mistake is that in ‘debate’ you don’t actually choose to address evidence presented

This may be something you’d like to address in future.

 

[exoflare]

**Come off it, you know I like you but you just remind me one of the classical Neocon lines and it makes you just sound exactly like one of them… **

If you’re going to reply, please keep your replies substantial. You’ve done nothing here but attempt to use name-calling as a diversion, rather than actually pointing out some real issue with the argument itself.

Strangely enough, this is one of the very “propaganda” tactics I mentioned right from the outset.

 

[Montalban]

If you’re going to reply, please keep your replies substantial. You’ve done nothing here but attempt to use name-calling as a diversion, rather than actually pointing out some real issue with the argument itself.

Strangely enough, this is one of the very “propaganda” tactics I mentioned right from the outset.

He keeps replying to say he’s not going to reply!

 

[exoflare]

I know, for stuff like that it’s best to just point out the obvious diversion and let them squawk all they want about it from that point on. They won’t be fooling anyone.

 

[exoflare]

More supposition. You’ve been away a couple of months and that’s the best you can come up with.

And when pressed for answers you go away again.

You should have just put him on your iggy list like I did. Seriously, what’s the worst that could happen? I would only bother responding to his arguments if I thought anyone out there was gullible enough to actually swallow them.

 

[exoflare]

I cannot emphasize it enough… I am so SICK of people mentioning this Cathechism passage as a red herring, without putting much thought into what it actually says.

So here, let’s take a bit of a deeper look at the actual words here, than “It talked about Islam and said only good things!! OMG!!”

My comments in bold

Instead of judging before you attend, why not go and see what it is like? Let us not forget the Catholic Church’s teaching on Islam:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims;

At first it looks like this is saying Muslims have some special place in the plan of salvation… in reality, EVERYONE has a place in the plan of salvation (should they choose to accept it - surprise, not everybody does) and this part of the Catechism just chose to specifically mention the Muslims. Note what the passage does NOT state: that Muslims are following the correct path by staying on their current course in Islam.

these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

They “profess” all right - but notice, though, how no mention is made on whether or not they are actually CORRECT in this profession. This was not a mere mistake. And yes, as it says, they do worship God… but again, that’s not even the issue in question.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems.

As we are supposed to with EVERYONE ELSE - with dignity as human beings. Notice how it states only the “Muslims” (people) and not the religious ideology itself (Islam).

They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men;

Like I mentioned above - true, but completely irrelevant to our question at hand.

they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees,

Yep…

just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.

Still no mention of whether or not the Church says any of the teachings of Islam are actually correct…

Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet.

Okaay…

*They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. *

Are these “devotions” and “prayers” completely grounded in truth, or do they find their main origins in the teachings of a false prophet? Stragely, we still don’t hear any judgement on that. Probably because the writers value their lives, but I digress…

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

Nice dream, but not at all realistic, IMO. Oh yeah, still no word on whether the religion of Islam contains any shred of truth whatsoever. So much for all of that.

From Nostra Aetate, Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, Proclaimed by Pope Paul VI and a document of the Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican.

 

[latin_rite]

1. The God of the Old Testament is no different than the God of the New Testament. They are inseperable, anything else is heresy in Christianity Catholicism in particular.
2. IF somehow you did seperate the two would Judaism be much more worth your time preaching against? Seriously read the Qu’ran, there’s really nothing that bad in it (as compared to the Bible, there is plenty I disagree with).

You say that you have read both the old and the new testaments. And that The God in it made you sick. Then you say that the god in the quran doesn’t. But isn’t the God of the old and new testaments, the same as god in the quran? So really according to muslims. The God that did those things that disgusted you so much. Is the same God. Or are you saying that the god that muslims worship isn’t the same God of abraham etc?

 

[Montalban]

It can also be argued that Jews, Protestants and Orthodox Christians also do not worship the same God we do.

Thanks for the truism

 

[Pius_X]

The Pope does not believe Muslims worship the same god. So if your numero uno does not believe, don’t expect others to do so.

Rodrigo, you ignored my previous link which had a Cardinal stating that the Pope held Muslims in esteem.

Regardless of the Pope’s views on this matter, we must look to the current Catechism (Which the current Pope published a condensed version of- if he did not beleive it, why would he republish it?) We are governed by official church documents, not the Pope’s opinion.

 

[Pius_X]

So here, let’s take a bit of a deeper look at the actual words here, than “It talked about Islam and said only good things!! OMG!!”

Or perhaps we should take a bit of a deeper look at the actual words other than, “It talked about Islam and said good things, but never said they were one hundred percent correct or subscribe to neo conservative idealogy. OMG!!”

“Are these “devotions” and “prayers” completely grounded in truth, or do they find their main origins in the teachings of a false prophet? Stragely, we still don’t hear any judgement on that. Probably because the writers value their lives, but I digress…”

It also never says they false. Since it is shown in a positive light, we can not assume anything negative.

“Nice dream, but not at all realistic, IMO.”

Thankfully, your opinions (which you freeley admit that this is merely your personal opinion) do not hold more weight than a document of an Ecumenical Council.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Rodrigo, you ignored my previous link which had a Cardinal stating that the Pope held Muslims in esteem.

No I didn’t. I responded to it by pointing out his later views. What Cardinal Bertone said was in 2006 - when he was trying to hose down the Byzantine emperor controversy. Bertone is a diplomat - he was trying to stop people getting killed, probably.

What is instructive is the Vatican rebuffing the letter for ‘dialogue’ by 138 Muslim leaders - citing irreconcileable differences in the concept of God.
Pius X:

Regardless of the Pope’s views on this matter, we must look to the current Catechism (Which the current Pope published a condensed version of- if he did not beleive it, why would he republish it?) We are governed by official church documents, not the Pope’s opinion.

You want to be guided - so be it. I’m saying that even the Pope doesn’t believe it - so I don’t feel the slightest inclination to give it any credence.

 

[exoflare]

Thankfully, your opinions (which you freeley admit that this is merely your personal opinion) do not hold more weight than a document of an Ecumenical Council.

True enough. But my opinions don’t contradict anything in those documents or Ecumenical Councils in the first place, so it’s really a moot point.

 

[exoflare]

It also never says they false. Since it is shown in a positive light, we can not assume anything negative.

We shouldn’t assume ANYTHING period - contrary to your wishes, positive assumptions don’t get a special free pass in this case.

 

[exoflare]

Or perhaps we should take a bit of a deeper look at the actual words other than, “It talked about Islam and said good things, but never said they were one hundred percent correct or subscribe to neo conservative idealogy. OMG!!”

I don’t know what a “neo conservative” is and really I don’t care. You’re the first one to even bring it up.

How is it a problem when I agree with everything the document says, but I don’t want to project onto it things that it doesn’t say? I thought that to avoid jumping the gun like that was just common sense, but if not can you please tell us all what is so terrible about it?