Muslim who needs answers???

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swariffin said:
In other words, it is true that in Islam, religion and politic are one.
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**swariffin, I had explained that the mission of all prophets of God was spiritual only, no politics. That was moses and Jesus and Muhammad’s mission. No politics.

There is a difference between a politician and a statesman. A politician works for his vote bank. A statesman works for the nation, not for himself.

swariffin, it is true that some muslim fundamentalists are teaching the lessons of politics in Islam. But that is not correct. Now we see all muslim religious leaders sunk deep in politics. That is all bad. They teach totalitarianism which includes political activity. That is not good and correct. That is why all Muslims are suffering.

Politics is wordly. Spiritual desire is Godly.**
 
planten said:
**swariffin, I had explained that the mission of all prophets of God was spiritual only, no politics. That was moses and Jesus and Muhammad’s mission. No politics.

There is a difference between a politician and a statesman. A politician works for his vote bank. A statesman works for the nation, not for himself.

swariffin, it is true that some muslim fundamentalists are teaching the lessons of politics in Islam. But that is not correct. Now we see all muslim religious leaders sunk deep in politics. That is all bad. They teach totalitarianism which includes political activity. That is not good and correct. That is why all Muslims are suffering.

Politics is wordly. Spiritual desire is Godly.**
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Please explain your posting #136?
 
Reuben_J said:
You mean you would really stone a person to death without any witnesses to confirm the crime?

Goodness, what great law you have! :rolleyes:
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**Reuben J, I did not say that there will be no trial. But the mode of trial for an adulerer will be different to the trial of a rapist.

Adultry is a willing act of both parties. rape is not so.
And the punishment should likewise be different.**
 
**J C, we are having friendly discussion here about the rights of women in Islam (i.e. the religion). So we must look into the religions and not any societies. islam is very much in the field with some rights for the ladies, even though only half share compared to male members.

We see some laws about it in Judaism too. Even though only for the male first. If there is no male then share will go to ladies. In the case of male members too, it may all go to the eldest son. I hope I am not misunderstanding.

I have not seen even a word about the share of ladies in inheritance according to the bibleNT. So we assume that bibleNT has ignored the rights of the ladies. Therefore, can we please drop this discussion now?**
 
eichenb2 said:
I would recommend Dinesh D’Souza’s book “What’s So Great about Christianity”. It deals with some of these very issues. It is a good read for a Christian or a Muslim. I suppose he intended to show that Christianity was far and away the answer to the new atheists. Surprisingly, though, I thought that particular part of the book was the least convincing. The best part of the book, in my opinion, was when he addressed the necessary link between religion and morality. I have to agree with what was previously mentioned. Many peoples from various parts of the world, with various faith traditions have made some wise laws. I say that wisdom is a human heritage, thank God.
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**True and good views. But here, some people are discussing a particular religion i.e. islam with an intention to downplay its laws.

I hope you are not an atheist. With all due respect, I may remind that God made man. Man did not make God.
The one who created knows what is best for the creation. The designer knows all about the nature of the product, what is best for him/her. You are suggesting that the product (man/woman) can make their own laws.

That is good thing to do. No harm. At least an effort in some direction. But the same effort could be expended in understanding the laws that were given by the Creator God. That would save some time and trouble.

There is a body and a spirit. Both need support. It is possible that the person himself/herself could become a victim of self desires and may legislate bad laws. May legislate laws good for own people but bad for rest of population.**
 
inJESUS said:
when Muhammad abrogated his laws every now and then and was accused of changing his mind , Muslims will tell you the wisdom is “adaptation”. Mind you, we are talking about adaptation within only 23 years which made Muhammad change many laws. How much adaptation is needed after hundreds and thousands of years? yet Allah stopped adapting based on 7th century mentality and this is what makes Islam rather backward despite its door of Ijtihad which was closed.
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planten said:
**Reuben J, I did not say that there will be no trial. But the mode of trial for an adulerer will be different to the trial of a rapist.

Adultry is a willing act of both parties. rape is not so.
And the punishment should likewise be different.**
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So you agree with the statement that rape case does not need witnesses?
 
planten said:
**J C, we are having friendly discussion here about the rights of women in Islam (i.e. the religion). So we must look into the religions and not any societies. islam is very much in the field with some rights for the ladies, even though only half share compared to male members.
**
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In short, Islam does not believe in equality of the sexes and this principle is being reflected in its laws. Can it be said then that women are less than human?
 
Reuben_J said:
So you agree with the statement that rape case does not need witnesses?
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I hope Planten does have the integrity to acknowledge this fact. According to Maliki school of law, rape is a type of Zina (Adultery or Fornication). Zina proven by 3 means.
  1. Confession made once unless it is withdrawn in any form whatsoever (mutlaqan) or (the convict) runs away (after confessing) even if during punishment
  2. Testimony (of four witnesses to the act). The hadd will not be set aside (even) if four women testify to the woman’s virginity (after the fact)
  3. Pregnancy in an unmarried woman, or a slave woman whose owner does not affirm (having had intercourse with her.) No claim of rape (made by her) is to be accepted without corroborating proof!" (See Minahul Jaleel, Sharh 'ala Mukhtasar Sidi Khaleel by Shaykh Muhammad 'Ulaysh, Vol 9, pp 255-9)
Basically, the baby in the womb of the woman who was raped is seen a proof that Zina took place. The rapists, on the other hand, would be asked (under oath) if they did this. If they swear under oath, that they did not rape the woman, and no other witness can graphically support the women’s story, then she is punished and the rapists are freed. Islamic Law would allow her to have and nurse her baby and if she came back…stone her to death. Muslims so frequently say that honor Mary and believe the Virgen Birth. Thank God that The Blessed Virgen Mother was not raised under Muhammad’s rule. Muslims would have stoned her :eek:
 
** Rape is like attacking and beating a person. It is not adultery.

Some good example of such things is given in the bibleOT. There is the need to see where the incident happened i.e. in the city or in wilderness. Did the lady cry for help or not. Then the elders will decide the case on merit.**
 
planten said:
** Rape is like attacking and beating a person. It is not adultery.

Some good example of such things is given in the bibleOT. There is the need to see where the incident happened i.e. in the city or in wilderness. Did the lady cry for help or not. Then the elders will decide the case on merit.**
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Did you even read any of the previous posts??? These issues have all been addressed!!! :confused:
As for your statement about rape, I have included the definition from a Webster’s dictionary.

rape1   /reɪp/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [reyp] Pronunciation
noun, verb, raped, raping.
–noun
  1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.
  2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.
  3. statutory rape.
  4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
  5. Archaic. the act of seizing and carrying off by force.
 
planten said:
** Rape is like attacking and beating a person. It is not adultery.

Some good example of such things is given in the bibleOT. There is the need to see where the incident happened i.e. in the city or in wilderness. Did the lady cry for help or not. Then the elders will decide the case on merit.**
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Also, adultery is having intercourse outside of marriage, done by a marriage person. Likewise, fornication is intercourse outside of marriage, by an unmarried person. So, for example, if a married person raped a unmarried person, it would be rape by an adulterer. If an unmarried person raped another unmarried person, it would be fornication for both.

So…Rape can be Adultery…this not rocket science!!!
 
planten said:
**Reuben J, I did not say that there will be no trial. But the mode of trial for an adulerer will be different to the trial of a rapist.

Adultry is a willing act of both parties. rape is not so.
And the punishment should likewise be different.**
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Rather like the girl was stoned to death in Somalia last month. If she really agreed to it was was she kicking and screaming? The barbarians even shot a child in the sheer excitement of the day. She was raped and stoned for it. Barbaric is the only word for that and how any Muslim can claim that is right is a barbarian too.
 
Walid said:
Hi everyone,
Code: 
 I am a born Muslim, and they are many essential points in Islam that I reject . I am reading  Robert Spencer, Dat Ye'or and Walid Shoebat and I always check the sources since I am Arabic.
But I am still confused because in the opposite side I am confronted to the miracles of the Qu’ran that are generally pretty convincing like the expansion of the univers. "We have created the sky and by our power we extend(expand) it’ (Coran, 51 : 47)
Code: 
That indeed, confirmed in the beginning of the 20th c by the Russian physicist Alexander Friedman and  the Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaître.

 So please if you are knowlegeable and you have clear answers about this specific subject reply precisely with references                                       
                                                                            Thanks
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Read this website and it will clear up your questions
gilead.ws/answeringislam.html
 
eichenb2 said:
Also, adultery is having intercourse outside of marriage, done by a marriage person. Likewise, fornication is intercourse outside of marriage, by an unmarried person. So, for example, if a married person raped a unmarried person, it would be rape by an adulterer. If an unmarried person raped another unmarried person, it would be fornication for both.

So…Rape can be Adultery…this not rocket science!!!
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**Would you please differentiate between Rape and adultery or put both of those crimes on same footing? Would you consider that there is some difference between a (willing) case of fornication and a case of rape by un-married persons? Would you put those two acts also on same footing?

Your post is something like the belief of the muslim clergy who want to define different punishments for the married and unmarried persons.
**
 
planten said:
**Would you please differentiate between Rape and adultery or put both of those crimes on same footing? Would you consider that there is some difference between a (willing) case of fornication and a case of rape by un-married persons? Would you put those two acts also on same footing?

Your post is something like the belief of the muslim clergy who want to define different punishments for the married and unmarried persons.
**
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Why does it seem like you are, purposely, confusing the discussion??? Your initial point was that rape is not the same as adultery. I have explained that. Rape is NOT ONLY like beating somebody up!!! Please read my previous post. In Islamic law, a man who owns a slave girl can have intercourse with her, even if she does not want to. He can force himself on her. In the US, as in other Western countries, this is considered rape.
 
planten said:
…I had explained that the mission of all prophets of God was spiritual only, no politics. That was moses and Jesus and Muhammad’s mission. No politics.
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No politics? Then please explain “The Promise of the Stone and the Tree”.
 
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