Muslims – Question about Janah

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Please look up the Crusades.
There’s nothing wrong with a just war. A just war is not an act of terrorism.
Also, make sure to look up the National Liberation Front of Tripura, Anders Behring Breivik, the Lord’s Resistance Army, Army of God, Scott Roeder, Eric Robert Rudolph and Hutaree.
Thanks for that; I haven’t heard of these groups/individuals before. I did a quick Google on them, some of these are guilty as charged while others are allegedly directly linked to Christian fundamentalism.

One group is when one too many but their causes are radically different to Islam e.g. Army of God is for the cause of anti-abortionists not a war against non-Christians.

From what I can see, not one of these you listed are Catholic groups whereas Al Qaeda and others alike are part of the largest Islamic denomination – Sunni.
 
There’s nothing wrong with a just war. A just war is not an act of terrorism.
Apparently too many Muslims have forgotten that the Crusades were defensive move and also it was only around end of 19th century talk of the Crusades reared its ugly head again by misinformation and exaggerations (ie Voltaire, Gibbon, and Sir Walter Scott ) and now (last say 15 years) after the nonsense spewed by Osama bin Laden about the “Crusades”.

MJ
 
Do not be so naive as to believe that these terrorists are motivated by the Qur’an or the Hadith. They are motivated by the false promises of their Imams. I personally come from a country where such terrorists are bred. I remember once sitting in a mosque for a sermon where the Imam explicitly commanded everyone who cared to listen NOT to learn the meaning of the Qur’an, study the context of its Verses or do any such research but only focus on the pronunciation. Imagine, being told to read the Bible in Hebrew and only taught the correct pronunciation.

All these terrorists, followers of these Imams, are illiterate, even when it comes to speaking their own language, let alone Classical Arabic of 600 AD. They have no access to books, internet, etc. They are orphans raised and trained by the Imams from birth. The Imams take the Verses out of context and then charge these people under them to war. These men under them do not know any better. To them, these Imams are images of gods and they do their will, not the Will of Allah.

P.S. The Al-Qaeda and the Taliban have prosecuted Muslims too, for decades. They follow the Wahabbi school of thought and deem any Muslims not following the Wahabbi philosophy of Islam as disbelievers and kill them. The media just doesn’t show it to you because it doesn’t concern them. Hundreds have so far died in Iran, India, Bangladesh and Pakistan but the media cares little when Muslims kill Muslims. It is when the crime is done against a non-Muslim that the media bats an eye.

I’ll explain the Wahabbi philosophy of Islam in a minute. It’s gonna be long but if you care to know then please wait and I’ll answer. First, I must offer my morning prayer.
The 9-11 terrorists were not illiterate. They had tertiary education, professionals and IT savvy.
 
I can give you a longer reply later as I am on my phone out of town right now, but surah 9:29 does not specify that it’s only for those in an Islamic state. Rather, it’s quite clear that it is for non muslims and it’s a future event for Muslims to impose on others.

Look at the word “until” Fight them until they pay a tax and feel subdued.
9:29 Fight those who do not believe in God or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what God and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

I don’t know where you’re getting this from: “Rather, it’s quite clear that it is for non muslims and it’s a future event for Muslims to impose on others.”

Nowhere does it claim to be speaking of a future event. Once again, to understand these Verses you have to look at the historical context of the revelation: When was the Verse sent down, what were circumstances surrounding it, etc.

This Verse was sent down when the Muslims had become a majority in Medina thus Medina had become an Islamic state. The Christians and Jews of Medina at this time signed a treaty to either pay the jizyah or participate in war with the Muslims should they be attacked by the Meccans. They didn’t choose to do the latter so the former was applied upon them: they had to pay the jizyah. However, one day, when a Disciple went to a Jew to ask him to pay the jizyah, he was killed by the Jew. So the revelation came that the Muslims of that period had to “[fight them] until they [those who do not believe in God or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what God and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture] give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.”

If such a situation occurs again where an Islamic state is established but the non-Muslims violently revolt against it by killing the Muslim delegates then yes, Muslims are required to fight them back till they are subdued and willingly pay the jizyah and conform by the laws of Islam in that state (stop eating pork, drinking alcohol, committing public indecency, etc).
 
The 9-11 terrorists were not illiterate. They had tertiary education, professionals and IT savvy.
But brainwashed when it comes to matters of theology. This is a very intricate subject. Do you really think you could have held a conversation such as this with a terrorist?
 
There’s nothing wrong with a just war. A just war is not an act of terrorism.
There was nothing just about the Crusades.
Thanks for that; I haven’t heard of these groups/individuals before. I did a quick Google on them, some of these are guilty as charged while others are allegedly directly linked to Christian fundamentalism.

One group is when one too many but their causes are radically different to Islam e.g. Army of God is for the cause of anti-abortionists not a war against non-Christians.
It doesn’t matter who they are/were fighting. Their fight was based on a Christian belief and they were Christians. No matter who they were targeting, they were involved in acts of terrorism based on doctrines of Christianity. Now, I do understand that this goes against the teachings of Jesus. Or perhaps it doesn’t? Whose word do we take for it – yours or theirs?
 
From what I can see, not one of these you listed are Catholic groups whereas Al Qaeda and others alike are part of the largest Islamic denomination – Sunni.
And yet they do not abide by the teachings of the Sunnah. They kill Sunnis in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh claiming their way is the right way. This is the Salafi school of thought based on Wahabbi philosophy. The Wahabbis are literalists shunning any contextual interpretation of the Qur’an or the Hadith like we have been taught to do. Instead, they take everything literally, word-for-word, and act upon it.
 
why Muhammad cursed us on his death bed in Aisha’s lap.
“'A’isha and Abdullah reported: As the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was about to breathe his last, he drew his sheet upon his face and when he felt uneasy, he uncovered his face and said in that very state: Let there be curse upon the Jews and the Christians that they have taken the graves of their apostles as places of worship. He in fact warned (his men) against what they (the Jews and the Christians) did (so they wouldn’t do it).” – Sahih Muslim 1082

“Narrated 'Aisha: Allah’s Apostle in his fatal illness said, ‘Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians, for they built the places of worship at the graves of their prophets.’ And if that had not been the case, then the Prophet’s grave would have been made prominent before the people. So (the Prophet) was afraid that his grave might be taken as a place for worship.” – Sahih Bukhari 2.23.472

In Islam, to pray to anyone other than God is against the first Pillar and first Commandment. In these Hadith, Muhammad (peace be upon him) was talking about how the graves of saints and prophets were taken as places of worship where the Christians and Jews went for pilgrimage believing the dead saints and prophets would intercede on their behalf to God. Muhammad (peace be upon him) preached strictly against this and warned us not to do it.
 
There was nothing just about the Crusades.
Then by your own standard there was nothing just regarding the Muslims that captured Jerusalem to which the crusaders responded to. Either way they do not fall under the definition of terrorism.
It doesn’t matter who they are/were fighting. Their fight was based on a Christian belief and they were Christians. No matter who they were targeting, they were involved in acts of terrorism based on doctrines of Christianity. Now, I do understand that this goes against the teachings of Jesus. Or perhaps it doesn’t? Whose word do we take for it – yours or theirs?
As I pointed out none of them were Catholics.
 
As I pointed out none of them were Catholics.
But they were Christians. We are speaking of Christian and Islamic ideals here. As a non-Christian, how am I to know which sect or view of Christianity is telling the truth? Isn’t that the card most non-Muslims pull out against Islam?
 
But they were Christians. We are speaking of Christian and Islamic ideals here. As a non-Christian, how am I to know which sect or view of Christianity is telling the truth? Isn’t that the card most non-Muslims pull out against Islam?
Nope, you did not point out any Catholic terrorists. I pointed out terrorists from the Sunni, the largest Muslim denomination.

My point is there are just too many Muslim attacks to be isolated or extremist. Muhammad is your perfect role model and yet even he led military campaigns. Why should not his followers continue his work of conquest?

Moab Hassan Yousef a convert to Christianity and son of Hamas leader Sheikh Hassan Yousef said “modern” Muslims (such as yourself) are the worst. They claim Islam is a religion of peace, these sort of people are either deceivers or have been deceived themselves. Who should I trust him or you?
 
9:29 Fight those who do not believe in God or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what God and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

I don’t know where you’re getting this from: “Rather, it’s quite clear that it is for non muslims and it’s a future event for Muslims to impose on others.”

Nowhere does it claim to be speaking of a future event. Once again, to understand these Verses you have to look at the historical context of the revelation: When was the Verse sent down, what were circumstances surrounding it, etc.

This Verse was sent down when the Muslims had become a majority in Medina thus Medina had become an Islamic state. The Christians and Jews of Medina at this time signed a treaty to either pay the jizyah or participate in war with the Muslims should they be attacked by the Meccans. They didn’t choose to do the latter so the former was applied upon them: they had to pay the jizyah. However, one day, when a Disciple went to a Jew to ask him to pay the jizyah, he was killed by the Jew. So the revelation came that the Muslims of that period had to “[fight them] until they [those who do not believe in God or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what God and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture] give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.”

If such a situation occurs again where an Islamic state is established but the non-Muslims violently revolt against it by killing the Muslim delegates then yes, Muslims are required to fight them back till they are subdued and willingly pay the jizyah and conform by the laws of Islam in that state (stop eating pork, drinking alcohol, committing public indecency, etc).
I do think it’s strange that Allah didn’t realize that Muslims would take these passages out of context after he proclaims that the Qur’an is eternal, as in it predates mankind. I wish Allah could have clarified that every passage in the Qur’an is historical rather than eternal, it would have solved many of the worlds problems today.

You’re under the interpretation that Surah 9:29 is historical which is great, again I wish all Muslims held this view. Unfortunately nothing is given in Surah 9:29 that can cause one to assume that it is historical.

Allah states that the Qur’an is very easy to understand, and yet he gives us divine revelations that seem to imply that Christians and Jews should be fought until they pay the Jizyah but yet what Allah really meant was to only fight the people who live in Islamic states if they’re harming you, until you pay the Jizyah.

If one was given Surah 9 it would inspire hate, thereby making the Qur’an not easy to understand at all.

You’ve also managed to clarify to me that when Allah says that Christians and Jews are the, “worst of creatures” he only meant certain Christians and Jews during that time. Once again, taking away the eternal reliability of the Qur’an and trying to make it historical. Even if it was true in this case it’s still Allah calling Christians and Jews the worst of creatures for rejecting Islam during that time. I read the article and I don’t find it convincing that Allah can make a blanket statement like, “Christians are the worst of creatures” and mean, “Some Christians during the period that I gave this revelation are the worst of creatures.” Are you noticing a pattern in your claims of historicity?

And I guess I’ll throw this one out there too: Why did Muhammad say “I have been ordered to fight the people until they testify that there is no god except Allah, and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah”?
 
And yet they do not abide by the teachings of the Sunnah. They kill Sunnis in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh claiming their way is the right way. This is the Salafi school of thought based on Wahabbi philosophy. The Wahabbis are literalists shunning any contextual interpretation of the Qur’an or the Hadith like we have been taught to do. Instead, they take everything literally, word-for-word, and act upon it.
No offence my friend, I’m sure you’re a nice person, but the day I believe Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion is the day Muslims will allow Christians to build a church in Mecca…
 
No offence my friend, I’m sure you’re a nice person, but the day I believe Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion is the day Muslims will allow Christians to build a church in Mecca…
Mecca? Try Saudi Arabia.

Muhammad’s words: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims” (Sahih Muslim 4366).

Or try criticizing Muhammad in Pakistan foxnews.com/world/2013/03/10/hundreds-christians-clash-with-pakistani-police-after-homes-burned-by-muslim/

Or try preaching Christianity in Iran dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2269086/Saeed-Abedini-U-S-pastor-sentenced-8-years-Iranian-prison-preaching-Christianity-homes.html

I could go on, but it’s worthless. Islam is not peaceful, it’s the Muslims in the West that are peaceful. I just never want them to have a majority… not here.
 
But brainwashed when it comes to matters of theology. This is a very intricate subject. Do you really think you could have held a conversation such as this with a terrorist?
Speaking of brain washed Osama talked about the Crusades as if Muslims lost.

What do you really know about the Crusades? Please give some details because you may be believing it was the naughty belligerent Catholics who provocated.

Let me inform you it was irresponsible Westerners (anti Catholics like Voltaire) who exaggerated and manipulated historical facts for example as if the Catholic church was going for material gain which is nonsense.

MJ
 
But brainwashed when it comes to matters of theology. This is a very intricate subject. Do you really think you could have held a conversation such as this with a terrorist?
Granted anybody can be brainwashed but your earlier post that I responded to was false in saying that those Muslims were illiterate. The 9-11 perpetrators were obviously not.

It is interesting to note that both Christianity and Islam have end times theology but nevertheless vary greatly in what each means respectively by this. Christian anti-Christ in Islam counterpart is surprisingly not the ad-Dajjal but more likely the al-Mahdi.

Here is a good read al-mahdi.atspace.com/compare.html. Perhaps you can understand the mind of the terrorists better from this.
 
the day I believe Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion is the day Muslims will allow Christians to build a church in Mecca…
I was thinking, my dad left me quite a large amount of money as inheritance and I have little use for it… perhaps, I should build a mosque in Vatican City; name it Masjid Al-Ferdousi maybe?
 
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