Muslims and Christ Divinity

[True_Faith50]

Thats exactly the verse. Do you accept the the son shares the same name as the father?

You see this word “Trinity” is not in the Bible. Imagine a foundation of faith, the foundation of Christianity the trinity you know that’s what they are trying to tell us, we say God is one, they say yes God is one but 3 in1.

The word Trinity is not in the bible, the word “Bible” is not in the Bible its amazing the word “Bible” is no where in the Bible any Bible hasn’t got inside, is on the outside. Who put it there? You put it there. How did you get this word Bible? They got it from the greek word “Biblos” Biblos mean book and they put it Bible. Holy Bible means Holy Book.

You see we have the word “Trinity” in the Quran! Amazing the Christians beliefs you haven’t got it but Quran has it. "Trinity is in the Quran. Amazing isn’t!

You believe it but in your book it doesn’t exist and we don’t believe it but its in the Quran. You know what it says!
Quran 5:73
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

The clearest verse on the trinity is the First Epistle of John Chapter 5 Verse 7 (King James Version)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That is the clearest statement on the Holy Trinity. But I say you know its not in my bible. So what do you mean its not in my Bible? Its in King James Version, its in the Roman Catholic Version is there.

But now its thrown out by 32 scholars of highest eminent back by 50 operating denomination, they produce the bible Revise Standard version (RSV) which goes to the most ancient manuscripts. Nearest to Jesus and in those manuscript the verse trinity was not there. This is an interpolation, a fabrication and as such Christian Scholars of the highest eminent back by 50 operating denomination they threw it out without any ceremony.

So, that’s how good your Trinity is, you got the word Trinity which is not there in any Bible. Little wonder Allah says
Quran 2:79
So woe to those who write the “scripture” with their own hands, then say, “This is from Allah ,” in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

 

[dronald]

You see this word “Trinity” is not in the Bible. Imagine a foundation of faith, the foundation of Christianity the trinity you know that’s what they are trying to tell us, we say God is one, they say yes God is one but 3 in1.

The word Trinity is not in the bible, the word “Bible” is not in the Bible its amazing the word “Bible” is no where in the Bible any Bible hasn’t got inside, is on the outside. Who put it there? You put it there. How did you get this word Bible? They got it from the greek word “Biblos” Biblos mean book and they put it Bible. Holy Bible means Holy Book.

You see we have the word “Trinity” in the Quran! Amazing the Christians beliefs you haven’t got it but Quran has it. "Trinity is in the Quran. Amazing isn’t!

You believe it but in your book it doesn’t exist and we don’t believe it but its in the Quran. You know what it says!
Quran 5:73
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

The clearest verse on the trinity is the First Epistle of John Chapter 5 Verse 7 (King James Version)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That is the clearest statement on the Holy Trinity. But I say you know its not in my bible. So what do you mean its not in my Bible? Its in King James Version, its in the Roman Catholic Version is there.

But now its thrown out by 32 scholars of highest eminent back by 50 operating denomination, they produce the bible Revise Standard version (RSV) which goes to the most ancient manuscripts. Nearest to Jesus and in those manuscript the verse trinity was not there. This is an interpolation, a fabrication and as such Christian Scholars of the highest eminent back by 50 operating denomination they threw it out without any ceremony.

So, that’s how good your Trinity is, you got the word Trinity which is not there in any Bible. Little wonder Allah says
Quran 2:79
So woe to those who write the “scripture” with their own hands, then say, “This is from Allah ,” in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

The word, “Trinity” is closer to the time of Jesus than the Shahada and the Tawhid is to Muhammad. Also, “Trinity” is not in the Qur’an, the number “Three” is.

 

[PRmerger]

You see this word “Trinity” is not in the Bible.

Perhaps if you were on a non-Catholic forum that argument would stump the Christians there.

However, as you are on a Catholic forum, you ought to know that we do not profess that everything we believe must be found “in the Bible”.

Thus, your statement above is simply answered by Catholics with, “You are correct. Trinity is not in the Bible. So why does that matter?”

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

You see this word “Trinity” is not in the Bible. Imagine a foundation of faith, the foundation of Christianity the trinity you know that’s what they are trying to tell us, we say God is one, they say yes God is one but 3 in1.

The word Trinity is not in the bible, the word “Bible” is not in the Bible its amazing the word “Bible” is no where in the Bible any Bible hasn’t got inside, is on the outside. Who put it there? You put it there. How did you get this word Bible? They got it from the greek word “Biblos” Biblos mean book and they put it Bible. Holy Bible means Holy Book.

You see we have the word “Trinity” in the Quran! Amazing the Christians beliefs you haven’t got it but Quran has it. "Trinity is in the Quran. Amazing isn’t!

You believe it but in your book it doesn’t exist and we don’t believe it but its in the Quran. You know what it says!
Quran 5:73
They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

The clearest verse on the trinity is the First Epistle of John Chapter 5 Verse 7 (King James Version)
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

That is the clearest statement on the Holy Trinity. But I say you know its not in my bible. So what do you mean its not in my Bible? Its in King James Version, its in the Roman Catholic Version is there.

But now its thrown out by 32 scholars of highest eminent back by 50 operating denomination, they produce the bible Revise Standard version (RSV) which goes to the most ancient manuscripts. Nearest to Jesus and in those manuscript the verse trinity was not there. This is an interpolation, a fabrication and as such Christian Scholars of the highest eminent back by 50 operating denomination they threw it out without any ceremony.

So, that’s how good your Trinity is, you got the word Trinity which is not there in any Bible. Little wonder Allah says
Quran 2:79
So woe to those who write the “scripture” with their own hands, then say, “This is from Allah ,” in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

If I had to reject every term not found in the bible I would find myself very limited. The Trinity has never been defended on the basis that the word is in the bible, so thats a critique to a point no one has raised. Rather the concept of trinity has been found in the bible when we try to interpret it as a whole and that is where the defence of the trinity comes from. It would help if you tried to understand Christian before you attempt to undo 2000 years of theology ( a theology I am barely acquainted with and so I must wonder where that leaves you).

Now you quote a verse in which we all know (those of us who know even the smallest thing about textual criticism) was not in our earliest greek manuscripts. As far as im aware its a late medievil insertion into the latin tradition with some very late greek manuscripts containing much further down the path. How prey tell did the council of Nicea and constantinople define its doctrine without this verse which you say is the only verse in the bible that purports a trinity. How did Saint Basil argue for the trinity? How did Saint Athanasius? How did Gregory of Naziansus and all the patristics argue for the trinity? How did they define a doctrine which was not explicitely defined in scripture? This is perhaps an area of study you should enter into if you want to be so bold as to condemn Christianity for inventing things out of whole cloth and inventing the trinity out of nothing and having no basis for it.

The biggest problem I have is not with your Philestine points against Christianity but rather the smug and arrogant attitude in which you think you know more than me. That you can say hte things you are saying as if I have never heard them and that to me is insulting. Can you come up with anything better?

My initial question has been unanswered, does Jesus have the same name as God the father in the gospels? Answer the question for me and I will ask a few more questions just to help you understand where I am coming from.

 

[dronald]

If I had to reject every term not found in the bible I would find myself very limited. The Trinity has never been defended on the basis that the word is in the bible, so thats a critique to a point no one has raised. Rather the concept of trinity has been found in the bible when we try to interpret it as a whole and that is where the defence of the trinity comes from. It would help if you tried to understand Christian before you attempt to undo 2000 years of theology ( a theology I am barely acquainted with and so I must wonder where that leaves you).

Now you quote a verse in which we all know (those of us who know even the smallest thing about textual criticism) was not in our earliest greek manuscripts. As far as im aware its a late medievil insertion into the latin tradition with some very late greek manuscripts containing much further down the path. How prey tell did the council of Nicea and constantinople define its doctrine without this verse which you say is the only verse in the bible that purports a trinity. How did Saint Basil argue for the trinity? How did Saint Athanasius? How did Gregory of Naziansus and all the patristics argue for the trinity? How did they define a doctrine which was not explicitely defined in scripture? This is perhaps an area of study you should enter into if you want to be so bold as to condemn Christianity for inventing things out of whole cloth and inventing the trinity out of nothing and having no basis for it.

The biggest problem I have is not with your Philestine points against Christianity but rather the smug and arrogant attitude in which you think you know more than me. That you can say hte things you are saying as if I have never heard them and that to me is insulting. Can you come up with anything better?

My initial question has been unanswered, does Jesus have the same name as God the father in the gospels? Answer the question for me and I will ask a few more questions just to help you understand where I am coming from.

I wouldn’t get too offended; Ignorance does not = arrogance. Based on his post history he’s probably been on some anti-Christian website, you know the ones: Christianity is a pagan invention, etc, etc.

Fact is, when a new Muslim joins these forums then expect to repeat yourself. They all come from the same misguided groups with their own twisting of Scripture. I have read many arguments against Christianity by Muslims and even though these are by far the worst you can’t get upset.

 

[dronald]

Perhaps if you were on a non-Catholic forum that argument would stump the Christians there.

No, it wouldn’t. In fact it’s an redundant one that’s laughable, ask William Lane Craig.

 

[PRmerger]

No, it wouldn’t. In fact it’s an redundant one that’s laughable, ask William Lane Craig.

The Muslims, like the JWs, have a valid argument in that they are quite correct when they say, “If you were on a desert island and a Bible were dropped into your lap, you would never glean the concept of a Trinitarian God from its pages.”

They are absolutely correct in that.

It is only when we have the lens of Tradition to direct our gaze that we can distill the concept of the Trinity from its pages.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I wouldn’t get too offended; Ignorance does not = arrogance. Based on his post history he’s probably been on some anti-Christian website, you know the ones: Christianity is a pagan invention, etc, etc.

Fact is, when a new Muslim joins these forums then expect to repeat yourself. They all come from the same misguided groups with their own twisting of Scripture. I have read many arguments against Christianity by Muslims and even though these are by far the worst you can’t get upset.

Can’t help but be offended at these awful arguments. I however invite the muslim to read those patristics and learn just why Christians believe in the trinity.

 

[dronald]

The Muslims, like the JWs, have a valid argument in that they are quite correct when they say, “If you were on a desert island and a Bible were dropped into your lap, you would never glean the concept of a Trinitarian God from its pages.”

They are absolutely correct in that.

It is only when we have the lens of Tradition to direct our gaze that we can distill the concept of the Trinity from its pages.

Yes PR, you have made that abundantly clear in your discussions with Protestants. It’s a terrible argument, but it’s one you’re sticking with.

I prefer to believe the Trinity can be found in the Bible, and wow, can it ever.

Can’t help but be offended at these awful arguments. I however invite the muslim to read those patristics and learn just why Christians believe in the trinity.

There’s no reason to reject the Trinity. Jesus was either blaspheming or telling the truth, but He certainly wasn’t claiming to be just another Prophet.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes PR, you have made that abundantly clear in your discussions with Protestants. It’s a terrible argument, but it’s one you’re sticking with.

How is it a terrible argument?

I prefer to believe the Trinity can be found in the Bible, and wow, can it ever.

You only say that because you have the lens of Tradition to direct your gaze.

Someone else, who reads the Bible from cover to cover, who has never been told, “There is one God in 3 persons, a consubstantial trinity, in which the Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God,” would never glean that from its pages.

 

[Kliska]

Yes PR, you have made that abundantly clear in your discussions with Protestants. It’s a terrible argument, but it’s one you’re sticking with.

I prefer to believe the Trinity can be found in the Bible, and wow, can it ever.

Amen and Amen. It is an easy thing to show it from scripture. The Father = God, the Son = God, and The Spirit = God. There is only one God. QED. Another avenue is The Father, The Word/Wisdom/Logos of God, and The Spirit of God. It’s not hard.

Jesus was either blaspheming or telling the truth, but He certainly wasn’t claiming to be just another Prophet.

Yep, Jesus was either a nut, a fraud, or the Son of God.

 

[PRmerger]

Yep, Jesus was either a nut, a fraud, or the Son of God.

Amen!

 

[PRmerger]

Amen and Amen. It is an easy thing to show it from scripture.

Firstly, it is ONLY because the CC, which already received the dogma of the Trinity from the Apostles, chose the books which proclaimed the Trinity, that you can “show it from Scripture”.

Secondly, you can get into some really good Scripture quoting wars with Unitarians, JWs, Christadelphians, Mormons, and other folks who use your paradigm to independently read the Scriptures…and they will all tell you that there is no Trinity in the Scripture.

That’s why you need a final arbiter of everyone’s interpretations of Scripture.

 

[dronald]

Firstly, it is ONLY because the CC, which already received the dogma of the Trinity from the Apostles, chose the books which proclaimed the Trinity, that you can “show it from Scripture”.

Secondly, you can get into some really good Scripture quoting wars with Unitarians, JWs, Christadelphians, Mormons, and other folks who use your paradigm to independently read the Scriptures…and they will all tell you that there is no Trinity in the Scripture.

That’s why you need a final arbiter of everyone’s interpretations of Scripture.

What you’ve done though is brought your redundant argument that you use in every thread into a discussion with Muslims. Why would a Muslim ever agree with you or find your argument compelling? And if you don’t care then why would you practice your apologetics in this thread?

Whether or not you believe a statement is true doesn’t mean it’s helpful for you to say. We’re discussing Christ’s divinity in a thread with Muslims and you’ve basically thrown a wedge in the entire discussion by saying, “the Trinity can’t be found in the Bible.”

You’ve now added that the Church interpreted the Bible well and therefore we have the Trinity. You’ve also added that Protestants use the Catholic interpretation and that’s how we got it too. Great, leave it out of here, we’re discussing with Muslims and you’re making things worse.

 

[PRmerger]

What you’ve done though is brought your redundant argument that you use in every thread into a discussion with Muslims.

There is only One Truth, ronald. As such, each and every time I profess a truth it is, indeed, “redundant” in that it ought to be nothing new.

I suppose you could also tell your teacher, “When you say 2 + 2 = 4, that is redundant. Please never repeat that again.”

But that would be an odd objection, don’t you think, ronald?

 

[dronald]

There is only One Truth, ronald. As such, each and every time I profess a truth it is, indeed, “redundant” in that it ought to be nothing new.

I suppose you could also tell your teacher, “When you say 2 + 2 = 4, that is redundant. Please never repeat that again.”

But that would be an odd objection, don’t you think, ronald?

Yes, but I’m not going to go spouting “2+2=4” to infants. It means nothing to them, and you’re wasting your time.

 

[PRmerger]

Why would a Muslim ever agree with you or find your argument compelling? And if you don’t care then why would you practice your apologetics in this thread?

Oh, I do care very much that a Muslim find my argument compelling.

I’m not sure where your comment comes from.

Whether or not you believe a statement is true doesn’t mean it’s helpful for you to say. We’re discussing Christ’s divinity in a thread with Muslims and you’ve basically thrown a wedge in the entire discussion by saying, “the Trinity can’t be found in the Bible.”

It can only be found with the lens of the CC.

That is incontrovertible.

And it is limned by the fact that if you ask a Unitarian, JW, Christadelphian if he sees the Trinity in the Bible…

he will tell you…



And that is why you need the CC to settle the matter.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, but I’m not going to go spouting “2+2=4” to infants. It means nothing to them, and you’re wasting your time.

Ah, so your criticism is not that my arguments are redundant.

It is that they are too sophisticated for the readers here.

Is that a better synopsis of your objection?

 

[dronald]

Oh, I do care very much that a Muslim find my argument compelling.

I’m not sure where your comment comes from.

It can only be found with the lens of the CC.

That is incontrovertible.

And it is limned by the fact that if you ask a Unitarian, JW, Christadelphian if he sees the Trinity in the Bible…

he will tell you…

http://media.tumblr.com/c0569ea4b1d95d1133a9d9c861572681/tumblr_inline_mhf45fEQkh1qz4rgp.gif

And that is why you need the CC to settle the matter.

Because it’s a poor argument for Muslims.

Look, I’m not even here to say you’re wrong because that’s not the point of this thread, my point is that you’re not being helpful.

Let’s say I want to prove to an Atheist that abortion is wrong, I don’t simply say to him “it’s wrong because the Church says so and that’s it.” Although it would be true, it’s not the right argument to use.

So again, you’ve thrown a wedge in the conversation by saying that the Trinity cannot be found in the Bible.

 

[dronald]

Ah, so your criticism is not that my arguments are redundant.

It is that they are too sophisticated for the readers here.

Is that a better synopsis of your objection?

Yes, that too. Have you been reading the Islamic objections?