Muslims and "Circular Reasoning"

[Nepenthe]

inJESUS:

a miracle is something believed by all, not a subjective one.

Uh, what? Care to name just one ‘miracle’ that everyone believes in?

 

[inJESUS]

And Judaism refers to no external sources at all. The very foundation of your faiths is not backed up by any previous scripture – it is ‘previous scripture’, but has nothing to verify it.

In the end, this is the central problem with revealed religions. No accountability.

very, very interesting point.
In my opinion, Jesus proves the old scriptures to be correct, and hence the existence of the Author of these books. The odds of someone in history fulfilling these scriptures and the hundreds prophecies proves that these books were not written randomly. All these books, all these authors, all this harmony is not the result of a wide imagination.

 

[Booklover]

"Then we inspired you (O Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, monotheism; never was he an idol-worshiper." [16:123]

There is only One God who created one race of human beings, and communicated to them one message: submission to the will of God—known in Arabic as Islam. That message was conveyed to the first human beings on this earth, and reaffirmed by all of the prophets of God who came after them, down through the ages.

In the years after they were sent by God to their respective people, the Message that the Prophets taught gradually became lost and eventually the people went back to wrong and abhorrent practices such as idol-worship and associating partners with their Creator.

It is therefore no surprise then that at the time of Muhammad (pbuh), the pagan Arabs were worshiping idols in the Kaa’ba, despite them being the likely descendants of Abraham (pbuh) through his son, Ishmael (pbuh).

The essence of the message of Islam is that humankind should worship only One God by obeying His commandments, and should avoid worshiping God’s creation in any way, shape or form.

Jesus Christ, born of the Virgin Mary, performed miracles and invited the Israelites to the same message of submission (Islam), as did all of the prophets who preceded him. He was not God, nor was he the ‘Son of God’, but was the Messiah, an illustrious prophet of God. Jesus did not invite people to worship himself; rather, he called them to worship God, and he himself worshiped God. He confirmed the laws of the Torah which Prophet Moses taught; he lived by them, and instructed his disciples to follow them to the finest detail. Before his departure, he informed his followers of the last prophet, Muhammad of Arabia (pbuh), who would come after him, and instructed them to observe his teachings.

In the generations after Jesus’ departure from this world, his teachings were distorted and he was elevated to the status of God. Six centuries later, with the coming of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the truth about Jesus Christ was finally retold and preserved eternally in the last book of divine revelation, the Qur’an. Furthermore, the laws of Moses, which Jesus followed, were revived in their pure and unadulterated form, and implemented in the divinely prescribed way of life known as Islam.

Consequently, the reality of the prophets, their uniform message, and the way of life which they followed, can only be found preserved in the religion of Islam, the only religion prescribed by God for man. Furthermore, only Muslims today actually follow Jesus and his true teachings. Their way of life is much more in tune with the way of life of Jesus than any of the modern day “Christians”. Love and respect of Jesus Christ is an article of faith in Islam. Allah stressed the importance of belief in Jesus in numerous places in the Qur’an. For example, in Chapter an-Nisaa (4):159, He said:

} وَ إِنْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا {

“And all of the people of the scripture must believe in him [Jesus] before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them,”

If we were giving prizes for pride and arrogance, you Muslims would win the cup outright.To claim that you’re the only ones who follow Jesus properly shows how inflated your little egos are!

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

Uh, what? Care to name just one ‘miracle’ that everyone believes in?

if 100 people witness a dead raised to life, can they deny a miracle happened?

if you read the Quran to 100 non-Muslims, will they all agree it’s a miracle?

 

[inJESUS]

The full explanation is in the thread that I have posted the link to.

Valke2:

I’m not going to waste my time on this. dozens of discrepancies have been discussed on these threads alone. I’m sure you would disagree. But this only confirms that your original premises, that there is a way to prove the Quran, is nonsense.

In other words, if only you see it correct and others see it wrong means the challenge have been met, if we can consider it a serious challenge. This, my brother, is a very subjective challenge that i, a human, know its flaws, let alone an all-knowing deity.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Yet God first came to the Jews and only the Jews, right? It’s in your own texts

Very true, and I think there is a very good and specific reason for that. The Gospel verses say so quite explicitly in both the OT and NT when Christ Himslef says He was only sent to the Jews.

I think we should just agree to disagree on this

Without an example I suppose so.

I have no problem accepting that the gospels contain some factual truth, I have no impediment to believing that a preacher and moralist named Yeshua was collecting followers in Judea in the early first century; I draw the line at accepting his resurrection and divinity. I can also accept that Heracles was an early king in Argos, as did Eusebius and Jerome; I draw the line somewhere before we get into him wrestling Kerberos.

Well, there is enough justification to accept Catholic reason and logic without suspending belief.

 

[Booklover]

The real difference between Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and all other so-called “prophets” who came after him is the ultimate proof of his Prophet-hood that he brought to humankind i.e. the timeless miracle which is the Qur’an.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
[

How to test the truth of a religion?](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=144539)

Why do keep posting the same nonsense? Do you think that if you keep on repeating this stuff over and over we’ll finally come to believe it?

A book filled with hatred and intolerance does not qualify as a “timeless miracle”!

Does the Quran Incite Violence?

a. Jews and Christians are, per se, the epitome of evil to Islamic thinking. Pagans are also evil, but somewhat less insulting to Allah, since the Jews and Christians received prophecy and “rejected” it.

1. 
   *]One of many such verses of hate: “Those who reject (Truth) (Islam), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.” Quran 098.006
   b. Therefore Jews and Christians are offensive to Allah. The worse between them is the Jew. The world will not be restored to Allah’s preferences until all Jews are defeated and entirely eradicated.
   1. 
      *]One of many such verses of hate: “Say: ‘shall I point out to you something much worse than this (referring to the previous verses), as judged by the treatment it received from Allah? Those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath (Jews), those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!’” Quran 5.060
      c. Muslims believe that those who resist conversion to Islam and the establishment of the prominence of Islamic global domination are Islam’s enemies who can never be trusted or treated as equals.
      1. 
         *]One of many such verses of hate: “O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends (or protectors),- offering them (your) love, even though they have rejected the Truth that has come to you, and have (on the contrary) driven out the Prophet and yourselves (from your homes), (simply) because ye believe in Allah your Lord! If ye have come out to strive in My Way and to seek My Good Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love (and friendship) with them: for I know full well all that ye conceal and all that ye reveal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path.” Quran 60.001
         d. Allah calls on Muslims (believers) to use their corporeal power to murder Jews, Christians, and people of other religions and to destroy their nations, cities and institutions, until they sue for peace and either become Muslims or pay for the privilege of being ruled by a world Islamic order.
         1. 
            *]One of many such verses of hate: Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
            Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah’s Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O ‘Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’ "
            
            One of many such verses of hate: Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:
            Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"
            news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1453
            
            Vickie

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The full explanation is in the thread that I have posted the link to.

Yes, I’ve seen that before.
For thing the Quran claims the Jews say Ezra (Uzair) is the Son of God, whereas neither they or their writings say any such thing.

The Quran says Iblis is an angel and then that he is a jinn. 18:50
You can see more contradictions in
answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

 

[inJESUS]

Yes, I’ve seen that before.
For thing the Quran claims the Jews say Ezra (Uzair) is the Son of God, whereas neither they or their writings say any such thing.

The Quran says Iblis is an angel and then that he is a jinn. 18:50
You can see more contradictions in
answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

a something strikes me in the Quran is that it says Sarah laughed before hearing the good news of her having Isaac when the Bible clearly says she laughed because of it that’s why Isaac means laughter

 

[Mirdath]

very, very interesting point.
In my opinion, Jesus proves the old scriptures to be correct, and hence the existence of the Author of these books. The odds of someone in history fulfilling these scriptures and the hundreds prophecies proves that these books were not written randomly. All these books, all these authors, all this harmony is not the result of a wide imagination.

Later sources do not prove the verity of earlier – generally speaking, it’s the other way around. And prophecy is a strange beast, and works best when it’s couched in very general terms.

One prophecy I saw somewhere on these boards earlier today said something on the order of ‘he will rejoice and call God his father’. Sure, Jesus did that. So do a couple billion Christians.

A general prophecy is easy to make and easy to fulfill. It’s big business even today: horoscopes, fortune cookies (minus one I got a while back that said ‘Some fortune cookies contain no fortune’ :banghead: ), zodiac placemats. Many people trust in such prophecies, not because they’re accurate assessments of their futures, but because they’re phrased so vaguely it’s hard to act in a way that doesn’t fit!

Jesus certainly fulfilled many, it’s true. He was the right person in the right place at the right time. That doesn’t make him God. And even if Jesus was divine, that doesn’t make the Bible inerrant.

 

[Booklover]

In the end, this is the central problem with revealed religions. No accountability.

See link for whole article.

The Bible as Historical Truth
Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as *merely a historical *book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Because of his Resurrection we have reason to take seriously his claims concerning the Church, including its authority to teach in his name.

This Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired

Vickie

 

[hamba2han]

Objectivity is the key in examining the Qur’an in order to ascertain it’s veracity and inimitability.

Solely referring to anti-Islam websites like answering-islam.org is not really a recommended method of being objective when examining the Qur’an… especially when every single one of their “refutations” has been answered at www.answering-christianity.com

 

[Mirdath]

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

Lewis’ Trilemma restated, omitting one leg (the original is ‘lunatic, liar, or Lord’ or ‘mad, bad, or God’ depending on whether you prefer alliteration or rhyme). The Trilemma is incomplete, ignoring entirely the tendency of people (such as the apostles) to get caught up in myth – but let’s not get into all that.

Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit.

Not so much hoax as myth (and people do die for myths) – and in any case, the Muslim belief is that God pulled the switch without the apostles having anything to do with it.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as *merely a historical *book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

True.

We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Because of his Resurrection we have reason to take seriously his claims concerning the Church, including its authority to teach in his name.

We have no reason to believe in the divinity of Jesus; even the resurrection implies no such thing, for God could have worked it on a mere human being.

This Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired.

Circular argument, since authority has not been truly established. Let’s look at the next section where they take that into consideration:

Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church’s infallibility and the Church’s infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. That indeed would be a circular argument! What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history.

It is generally fairly reliable on documented historical fact. Sure.

From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded.

We conclude that a Church was founded. Nothing about infallibility – there is no proof that Jesus’ authority is sufficient to guarantee that.

And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired.

No dice.

This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired.

Not a restatement of the initial finding, certainly! But that wasn’t the question! The question was ‘is the Bible inspired and inerrant?’

 

[inJESUS]

Jesus certainly fulfilled many, it’s true. He was the right person in the right place at the right time. That doesn’t make him God. And even if Jesus was divine, that doesn’t make the Bible inerrant.

nobody said it makes Him God. What i talked about is the percentage of someone fulfilling prophecies written by different people throughout thousands of years. This is not a coincidence nor the fruits of wide imagination and we are not talking about general prophecies but prophecies that are beyond the interference of the person in question like his birth, birthplace,ecc.

 

[Booklover]

Objectivity is the key in examining the Qur’an in order to ascertain it’s veracity and inimitability.

Solely referring to anti-Islam websites like answering-islam.org is not really a recommended method of being objective when examining the Qur’an… especially when every single one of their “refutations” has been answered at www.answering-christianity.com

What objectivity? That because Muhammad was “illiterate” he couldn’t possibly have authored the Quran, and therefore it could only be from God?

All I have to do is read all the verses preaching hatred and intolerance to convince me that the Quran cannot be from God. The God I believe in loves everyone! He is not the petty tyrant of the Quran who hates half of his creations.

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

Objectivity is the key in examining the Qur’an in order to ascertain it’s veracity and inimitability.

Solely referring to anti-Islam websites like answering-islam.org is not really a recommended method of being objective when examining the Qur’an… especially when every single one of their “refutations” has been answered at www.answering-christianity.com

so when an objective scholar says the Quran is not miraculous, what would you answer?

 

[pro_universal]

What objectivity? That because Muhammad was “illiterate” he couldn’t possibly have authored the Quran, and therefore it could only be from God?

All I have to do is read all the verses preaching hatred and intolerance to convince me that the Quran cannot be from God. The God I believe in loves everyone! He is not the petty tyrant of the Quran who hates half of his creations.

Vickie

Do the verses in the Old Testament that command killing all the nonbelievers, women and children, make you believe that the Old Testament is not from God?

 

[Verisimilitude]

He is not the petty tyrant of the Quran who hates half of his creations.

Vickie

Half? Being a bit generous there aren’t you?

 

[hamba2han]

so when an objective scholar says the Quran is not miraculous, what would you answer?

Can you name just one “objective scholar” who says that the Qur’an is not miraculous?

In any case, the Qur’an itself answers this question when in many places, it challenges the people to produce a Surrah like one of its Surrahs. It appears that the Christian missionaries who call the challenge irrelevant or an utterly subjective criterion are pretty much unaware of how the Arabic poetry and prose compares with the Qur’an.

The following verses of the Qur’an deal with this challenge:

If the Mankind and the Jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another.
(Al-Qur’an 17:88)

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.
(Al-Qur’an 2:23-24)

Ever since the Qur’an was revealed, fourteen centuries ago, no one has been able to produce a single chapter like the chapters of the Qur’an in their beauty, eloquence, splendor, wise legislation, true information, true prophecy, and other perfect attributes.

The smallest chapter in the Qur’an (Chapter 108) is composed of only ten words, yet no one has ever been able to meet this challenge, then or today. Some of the disbelieving Arabs who were enemies of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) tried to meet this challenge to prove that Muhammad (pbuh) was not a true prophet, but they failed to do so.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Do the verses in the Old Testament that command killing all the nonbelievers, women and children, make you believe that the Old Testament is not from God?

The justification of it is Gods to answer, but I can think of a reason it could be considered required as some things are to serve a higher, righteous purpose. Gold must be heated to be purified; so might a people be prepared by God. Do you care to guess what I think the result of that purification process to a chosen people?

Why and what do you believe of it…or God?