Muslims and Universalists, what do you think of these verses?

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Moses was not a magician :confused:,
indeed, he was affected by their magic
His miracle was from god while the magic is from devil !
Whoe - can you please use “black” font - the color you chose is hard to read for us “old timers”…
 
well
if someone came to me and said to me he believe in same God i do , i will ask him about his God , if he told me that his God is the same God of mohammed and all prophets , he is the God who created us and created the heavins and the earth . he is one God and have no parteners beside him
hence i will accept that he worship the same God
by the way i have no problem to consider bahai to be believers in the same God

if they told me that they have a holy book which i should to follow , then i find it contradicts mine in some issues
i will think a moment that as long as both of us worship the same God , then God can’t contradicts himself , i will guess that one of those contradiction issues is from God and the other not from God

i will compare both of them honestly to find out which of them more reliable , more clear and more convinced and nearst to the truth , if it was the new relegion i will accept it , if not i will deny it
Thank you for your answer, although I have a few questions - not to jump subjects, but to clarify your answer so I can better understand your position.
  1. You stated that if he has a holy book that contradicts yours (but will still assume you both worship the same God), you therefore assume that “one of those contradiction issues is from God and the other not from God.” Are you saying that God will intentionally teach a contradiction among His followers? I just want to make sure and not jump to a conclusion.
  2. You stated “i will compare both of them honestly to find out which of them more reliable, more clear and more convinced and nearest to the truth.” What standard would you use? Obviously if you are saying there is a specific “truth” out there, then there has to be a standard by which that truth is set. What standard do you put in place for the truth? For example: your Quran, his holy book, etc.
 
Thank you for your answer, although I have a few questions - not to jump subjects, but to clarify your answer so I can better understand your position.
  1. You stated that if he has a holy book that contradicts yours (but will still assume you both worship the same God), you therefore assume that “one of those contradiction issues is from God and the other not from God.” Are you saying that God will intentionally teach a contradiction among His followers? I just want to make sure and not jump to a conclusion.
no , i saying that one is from God and one alleged to be from God while it’s not
  1. You stated “i will compare both of them honestly to find out which of them more reliable, more clear and more convinced and nearest to the truth.” What standard would you use? Obviously if you are saying there is a specific “truth” out there, then there has to be a standard by which that truth is set. What standard do you put in place for the truth? For example: your Quran, his holy book, etc.
quran gave me this standard which i can use with any book be said from God

4- 8
2Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than God , they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

do you remember when i said i can proof the fallacy of their relegion from their own beliefs not from mine .
you responded me saying
If your mindset is to “prove everyone wrong” without using your own religion as a standard, nor to even set your own religion by the same standards, then I think you are revealing that the only mindset in defending Islam is to attack everyone else.

i hope that my point is more clear now , it’s not about proving every one wrong , rather it’s about testing everyone’s claims
" lies have no feet"
 
no , i saying that one is from God and one alleged to be from God while it’s not
Ah, thank you, I was a bit worried there.
quran gave me this standard which i can use with any book be said from God

4- 8
2Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than God , they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

do you remember when i said i can proof the fallacy of their relegion from their own beliefs not from mine .
you responded me saying
If your mindset is to “prove everyone wrong” without using your own religion as a standard, nor to even set your own religion by the same standards, then I think you are revealing that the only mindset in defending Islam is to attack everyone else.

i hope that my point is more clear now , it’s not about proving every one wrong , rather it’s about testing everyone’s claims
" lies have no feet"
And what standard do you use for that claim? I think you answered that with the first part of this section: the Quran (S. 4:8). Otherwise, there is no spiritual standard for truth for a Muslim to follow. Am I correct, then, that the Quran would be your standard against someone claiming to have come from a religion in line with Islam? Just to make sure.
 
Ah, thank you, I was a bit worried there.

And what standard do you use for that claim? I think you answered that with the first part of this section: the Quran (S. 4:8). Otherwise, there is no spiritual standard for truth for a Muslim to follow. Am I correct, then, that the Quran would be your standard against someone claiming to have come from a religion in line with Islam? Just to make sure.
no
the verse said
And if it were from any other than God , they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

if bahai’s holy book is from any other than God , i will find in it many a discepancy .

as for example

Luke 24
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
**46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, **
47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 You are witnesses of these things.

Where in the Old Testament do you have that?! Show me one Old Testament verse that prophesized about Jesus’ third day resurrection?
 
no
the verse said
And if it were from any other than God , they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

if bahai’s holy book is from any other than God , i will find in it many a discepancy .

as for example…
All right, elwill, you’re doing it again, you’re jumping subjects back to Christianity. But the modes you’re using can be used by anyone - atheist, agnostic, pagan, etc. But you are none of these. You are Muslim. Therefore, you have to admit that you’re rule of faith is the Quran, and I would expect it to be your standard of truth especially when you are dealing with people who are claiming to be of your same faith.

Therefore, can you deny that the Quran is the standard of truth of which you would set anyone who claimed to come before you?
 
no , i can’t deny
Ah, thank you. 🙂

Now, just to extend it a bit, let’s go back to my scenario. Let’s say you go to the guy who is claiming to be in line with Mohammad and the Quran. Let’s say you confront him about the discrepancies between what the Quran says and what his holy book says. He replies, “No, see, your prophet never wrote any of that,” or even, “No, the companions of the prophets changed the Quran,” or even, “No, later generations of Muslims corrupted the Quran.” Would you follow his religion and take him at his word, or would you still hold the Quran as the infallible source of truth and try to argue that the contradictions of a later revelation are unique only to that supposed revelation?
 
Ah, thank you. 🙂

Now, just to extend it a bit, let’s go back to my scenario. Let’s say you go to the guy who is claiming to be in line with Mohammad and the Quran. Let’s say you confront him about the discrepancies between what the Quran says and what his holy book says. He replies, “No, see, your prophet never wrote any of that,” or even, “No, the companions of the prophets changed the Quran,” or even, “No, later generations of Muslims corrupted the Quran.”** Would you follow his religion and take him at his word, or would you still hold the Quran as the infallible source of truth and try to argue that the contradictions of a later revelation are unique only to that supposed revelation**?
it will depends on long discussion about his claim that quran was corrupted , if he convinced me i will follow him
 
it will depends on long discussion about his claim that quran was corrupted , if he convinced me i will follow him
But the basis of his faith is that we should assume the Quran was corrupted because his religion tells him so, and part of his evidence is the contradictions between his own holy book and yours. How would you respond to that?
 
But the basis of his faith is that we should assume the Quran was corrupted because his religion tells him so, and part of his evidence is the contradictions between his own holy book and yours. How would you respond to that?
assuming that the quran was corrupted because his relegion tells him so without any other factual verifications will be called blind faith .
such kind of faith is useless if you used it in debates
 
assuming that the quran was corrupted because his relegion tells him so without any other factual verifications will be called blind faith .
such kind of faith is useless if you used it in debates
Very true, but it won’t be the only part of his argument, simply the inspiration for it. He will surely go beyond that belief to seek out any evidence the Quran is corrupt. He’ll quote liberal Muslim scholars to you, he’ll quote non-Muslim scholars who deny the divine authority of the Quran, he’ll quote to you supposed contradictions, he’ll go to early Muslim heresies, and many more to try to convince you that HIS revelation is the more accurate one. All this even if the sources he are using do not agree lead to the conclusion he is trying to make you come to.

Knowing that his argumentation is coming from the mindset that his prophet and holy book told him the Quran is corrupt, and he is now arguing from this presupposition, how would you ultimately respond to all the argumentation he is trying to put forth?
 
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