"Muslims are not like christians who accept insult to their religion"

[TOP]

You need to read the forum rules-there is nothing arbitrary about the rules. I am not uspet with Ahmed-I am not the one who reoported him, But IMO he crossed the line and he is now paying the price.

I reported him as this: Ban for indirect threats.

 

[Subrosa]

There is someone who has a point of view that some are ignoring…

Mt 5:43-48

Jesus said to his disciples:
“You have heard that it was said,
You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.
But I say to you, love your enemies
and pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be children of your heavenly Father,
for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good,
and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have?
Do not the tax collectors do the same?
And if you greet your brothers only,
what is unusual about that?
Do not the pagans do the same?
So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

I think it is relevent.
Sub

 

[Onesimus]

There is someone who has a point of view that some are ignoring…

… I think it is relevent.
Sub

I don’t think it’s being ignored. I think Christendom has, in large measure, concluded the passage you cite is not to be scrupulously applied.

It all comes down to Shakespeare’s famous question: is it better to suffer the slings and arrow of outrageous fortune, or by opposing, end them?

History shows us all those “Muslim” lands in the middle east USED to be Christian lands, and it is only in those lands that successfully repelled Islam that Christianity flourished, developed, and blessed the world. So much so that even today, when Islam is spooling up it’s war machine, it has to use the tools of the patron West to even present a credible threat.

Do you believe the Lord was commanding pacifism in the passage you cited?

 

[BelFarfalla]

There is someone who has a point of view that some are ignoring… Mt 5:43-48

I think it is relevent.
Sub

There is someone who has a point of view that some are ignoring… Mt 5:43-48

I don’t think anyone is ignoring the ‘love your enemy’ thing.
Loving ones enemy in the manner intended is of grave importance. However, this does not preclude people from self defense. It is of extreme importance that we stand up to those who threaten us with violence to try to get us to shut up and to intimidate us into accepting their religion and way as superior to ours.

Don’t for get that in places like the Middle East and North Africa Islam as almost totally destroyed Christianity and all other religions using the tactics of apartheid, discrimination, intimidation, terror and outright genocide of those populations. That any Christians still exist in that part of the world is nothing short of a miracle. During the days from the time of Muhammad trough the ottoman empire there were regular genocides held against Christians and Jews in which hundreds of thousands were slaughtered at a time. Other times thousands were taken and sold as slaves. This served to keep the remaining non-Muslims populations scared and subservient. They remain so today.

I’ve seen this form of ‘discipline’ in action when as a child I watch as Muslims slaughtered dozens of Christians. You’d better believe it put the fear of Islam in the Christian community. Made every one shut up and not speak out.

Our fiend here is a Muslim from Egypt. He has condoned the use of violence against one of the oldest Christian parishes on earth because they dared to show a video about a Muslim converting to Islam. Are you aware of the persecution that threatens Christians in Egypt? They are mostly Coptics. The local authorities do little to nothing while thousands of Coptic girls a year are kidnapped, forcefully converted to Islam and forced to marry a Muslim. Once these girls are ‘Muslims’ they are kept as prisoners in their forced marriage and not allowed to even see their families again. In recent years alone Coptic have been murdered by gangs of Muslims while the police watch and do nothing. Their lands are stolen, etc.

And you want us to say nothing to a Muslim from that country who makes jokes about this persecutions and even threatens us here if we speak unfavorably about Islam and Muhammad? I believe that in letting our friend here know that the Christian world is not a weak as he seems to think we are will help our fellow Christians in Egypt. Maybe the next time he condones such violence he will check his hateful thoughts.

Challenging his beliefs on this is the most loving thing we can all do for him.

 

[Subrosa]

I don’t think it’s being ignored. I think Christendom has, in large measure, concluded the passage you cite is not to be scrupulously applied.

It all comes down to Shakespeare’s famous question: is it better to suffer the slings and arrow of outrageous fortune, or by opposing, end them?

History shows us all those “Muslim” lands in the middle east USED to be Christian lands, and it is only in those lands that successfully repelled Islam that Christianity flourished, developed, and blessed the world. So much so that even today, when Islam is spooling up it’s war machine, it has to use the tools of the patron West to even present a credible threat.

What we speak of is simply this metaphorically - Is the glass half full or half empty? I can admit that what you say is true. But, with the fact that it is true what do we do with it? We have at hand an opportunity with an actual muslim who lives in Egypt - one of the lands you speak of. We can now show him what real christianity is about using the biblical passage I cite above as a guide.

We can show him that Islam spread into Egypt by use of military force. We can show him that Islam, at least some part of it, is disrespectful to other religions. We can show him that the disrespect is causing harm to Islam on a worldwide scale.

The lesson is as it has always been - respect is earned, not demanded.

Do you believe the Lord was commanding pacifism in the passage you cited?

I am no pacifist, nor do I believe that anything in the bible teaches pacifism. What the passage contains is a way of stepping back and showing an adversary that HE can be compassionate by providing an example of compassion.

We can be the example by not slamming the door in his face.

A second chance is profitable is all the passage is saying.

Subrosa

 

[BelFarfalla]

The other issue in this thread that has barely been address is our relative passivity in the face of insult. I believe that at least the first crusade was quite justified and correct. Perhaps another crusade is sorely needed but I don’t know who would prosecute it. We have no Catholic empire.

In any event I do wonder if we shouldn’t stand up with a more open verbal witness than we often offer.

CDL

You are right that the issue of what we as Christians can and should be doing in the face of insult has not been addressed sufficiently on this thread.

I do not believe that there is room for violence when we have not been physically attacked. However I do believe that we need to voice our objection loudly and clearly.

For example in the case of the article in the first post of this thread. I think that the Christian world was way to passive in response to the attack on the Church and the nun in Egypt. The Copts are our spiritual brothers/sisters. They cannot protest or speak out for fear of their lives. But we can. An attack of that magnitude on the Egyptian Copts is an insult to all Christians… we should back them up. I wonder how the Muslims of Egypt would have reacted if hundreds of thousands of Western Chritians (especially Catholics) would have marched peacefully world wide. It would have let the Muslims know that we are serious about them respecting their coptic citizens.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

There you have it folks he would become violent.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sometimes chose to forgive those who had insulted him, and sometimes he ordered that they should be executed, if that served a greater purpose. But now his forgiveness is impossible because he is dead, so the execution of the one who insults him remains the right of Allaah, His Messenger and the believers, and the one who deserves to be executed cannot be let off, so the punishment must be carried out.

In connection with which:​

Britain’s knighthood to the author Salman Rushdie contributes to insulting Islam and may lead to terrorism, a Pakistani minister has said.

Such actions are the root cause of terrorism, Religious Affairs Minister Ejaz-ul-Haq told parliament.
The minister later said he had not meant to condone or incite terrorism but stress its origins.

Pakistan’s parliament has condemned the knighthood. Iran says it shows “Islamophobia” among British officials.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6763119.stm

 

[BelFarfalla]

In connection with which:​

Britain’s knighthood to the author Salman Rushdie contributes to insulting Islam and may lead to terrorism, a Pakistani minister has said.
Such actions are the root cause of terrorism, Religious Affairs Minister Ejaz-ul-Haq told parliament.
The minister later said he had not meant to condone or incite terrorism but stress its origins.
Pakistan’s parliament has condemned the knighthood. Iran says it shows “Islamophobia” among British officials.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6763119.stm

What leads to terrorism is the terrorists being murderous. Nothing else.

Years ago I worked in the intelligence field in a European country. What I found was that the terrorists and agitators all had one thing in common no matter what their political bent was… they all had criminal records.

These people were terrorists looking for cause… They often switched sides and causes like some people change outfits. Not oppressed people seeking liberation.

They were basically angry criminals looking to legalize their desire to harm and kill people. Islamic terrorism is a home for these types of crazies.

If Islam went totally peaceful tomorrow, these thugs would just look for another reason to express their anger and blood lust.

 

[paarsurrey]

They were basically angry criminals looking to legalize their desire to harm and kill people. Islamic terrorism is a home for these types of crazies.
If Islam went totally peaceful tomorrow, these thugs would just look for another reason to express their anger and blood lust.

Hi
They only try to hide under cover of Islam but they fail; they are evidently exposed.
Thanks

The first forty years i.e. before Muhammad was appointed ProphetMessenger by GodAllahYHWH has been offered as a reasonable argument/challenge in Quran before Infidels-of-Mecca, and they could not deny its truthfulness.

 

[quantumDeus]

Originally Posted by BelFarfalla
They were basically angry criminals looking to legalize their desire to harm and kill people. Islamic terrorism is a home for these types of crazies.
If Islam went totally peaceful tomorrow, these thugs would just look for another reason to express their anger and blood lust.

They could not deny its truthfulness because of the threat of the sword. Those who spoke out (particularly in the early Meccan years) tended to end up dead. This is not only recorded in the Qu’ran, but also corroborated by the ahadith.

This is furthered by secular history and archaeological evidence: Islam was from its beginning a religion spread by the sword. Today, many use that example (and in their view rightly assert), that the perfect model is Mohammed, and thus if he could use violence: either through war or assassination, then they can too.

As for belfarfalla’s contention that if Islam went peaceful, I would point out that it cannot. To attempt to implement change in Islam is seen as apostasy, and thus punishable by death. Islam, regrettably, has built within it a Catch 22 that prevents it from advancing out of 7th century mentalities.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

What leads to terrorism is the terrorists being murderous. Nothing else.

Years ago I worked in the intelligence field in a European country. What I found was that the terrorists and agitators all had one thing in common no matter what their political bent was… they all had criminal records.

These people were terrorists looking for cause… They often switched sides and causes like some people change outfits. Not oppressed people seeking liberation.

They were basically angry criminals looking to legalize their desire to harm and kill people. Islamic terrorism is a home for these types of crazies.

If Islam went totally peaceful tomorrow, these thugs would just look for another reason to express their anger and blood lust.

This is the message I keep hearing from Muslim students in my Comparative Religion classes. I hope you are right. I wish that not so many Imams would preach so much violence, however. That would help me believe more strongly in your point.

CDL

 

[quantumDeus]

This is the message I keep hearing from Muslim students in my Comparative Religion classes. I hope you are right. I wish that not so many Imams would preach so much violence, however. That would help me believe more strongly in your point.

CDL

I agree, observable fact in Islam outside of the US and perhaps the UK, shows us that immams, mullahs and ayatollahs go to great lengths to stir up the masses. Such agitation leads to the killing of Christian (generally Catholic) religious in places like Turkey, Egypt and East Timor.

What has perpetuated tolerance in the West of such hatred and anger is the Western media’s incessant promotion of “the actions of a few.”

Few, as I have stated elsewhere, is a relativistic word and is generally perceived as non-threatening. But more concretely, what does “few” represent among some 1.4 billion Muslims worldwide. Many estimates place as many as 15% of Muslims as sympathetic to extremist views, with another 40-50% of Muslims anti-West for political as well as religious reasons, and are at least ambivalent toward their extremist brothers.

So, let’s look at “few” with concrete numbers: Some 160 million Muslims endorse the propogation of violence to achieve the ends of Islam, another 600-800 million are at least sympathetic enough to avert their eyes to the means of achieving the end.

I don’t know about anyone else, but 760-960 million does not constitute “a few.”

 

[chet]

There you have it folks he would become violent.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sometimes chose to forgive those who had insulted him, and sometimes he ordered that they should be executed, if that served a greater purpose. But now his forgiveness is impossible because he is dead, so the execution of the one who insults him remains the right of Allaah, His Messenger and the believers, and the one who deserves to be executed cannot be let off, so the punishment must be carried out.

In Matthew 5:44-45 Jesus Said,

"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Jesus Said in Luke 6:27-29

"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.“Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.”

Love is not a feeling,love is an action of the will.We may not like someone, but we love them. Sometimes it is the hardest thing that we do, but it is what Jesus taught us to do.For God is Love!

 

[chet]

Luke 23:33-35 The Crucifixion

When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing " And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.”

 

[QuietTimes]

In Matthew 5:44-45 Jesus Said, Jesus Said in Luke 6:27-29Love is not a feeling,love is an action of the will.We may not like someone, but we love them. Sometimes it is the hardest thing that we do, but it is what Jesus taught us to do.For God is Love!

I agree with you 100%

 

[chet]

I agree with you 100%

Thanks!!! QuietTimes.

 

[QuietTimes]

IMHO muslims could use some true love.:grouphug: