Muslims Around the World Speak Out Against Terrorist Attacks in Paris

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TheAtheist said:
This shouldn’t be too surprising to you.

The majority of these militant groups emanate from nations that are for all intents and purposes - failed states.

The Russians seem to think that the only way to govern places like Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria is through the “Strong-Man” model of government - but of course Putin would encourage that model given his own history. But they do so in the belief that it would be the only way to repress all of these militant groups.

There is a host of issues implicit in what your saying - the largest one being if a person who happens to be Muslim identifies themselves as a member of the political polity which they reside in.

This is where I should congratulate the Americans - as they lead the way in terms of integration of foreigners with differing cultural/ethnic/social/religious backgrounds… hence the reason why they as a Western nation are a much smaller contributor of people joining the ranks of the groups like ISIS.

Contrast this with the Europeans…and the Russians…

One of the primary issues happens to be what level of integration has occurred between the immigrant population and the their host country.

France is notorious for having these issues in terms of the the migrant population that are Muslim even BEFORE this current wave of refugees.

You can find 3rd generation Tunisians/Algerians/Moroccans, et al. who while having been born and raised in France with French as their primary language STILL feel shut out of the society which they supposedly belong to.

So if they can’t identify with the people around them, may draw their sense of Self from another type of community…

…and this is where the problems arise given the options presented to them.
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I’d like to point out that the continent of Africa has, for several centuries, been the number one place in the world for states that consistently have a status of “fragile” or “failing.” These failing states have sometimes affected Muslims, but just as often they have affected states with little to no Muslim presence, so there are many opportunities for meaningful comparison.

And I notice that over these centuries and across a wide variety of religious groups that have been affected by this instability, this seems to be a pretty reliable formula.

“Failed state” plus “Non Muslims” equals internal and external displacement along with the horrible mistreatment of certain people-groups.

“Failed state” plus “Muslims” equals all of the above, along with the establishment of a terror network that can carry out attacks well beyond the borders of the failed state, and most likely some meaningful investment from a multi-millionaire Muslim who wants to make Death to America possible. Again, this is usually done without any known support from an actual state.

I basically agree with the rest of what you said, and thanks for the compliment to America. I will also add that the US has largely succeeded in being a secular society that is not overly friendly to any one form of religion while being, for the most part, reasonably friendly to religion in general. France is one big example where this has not been the case for the past century or so, maybe more. It’s very secular, but in a way that frequently makes religion- in the abstract- an enemy of the state. These ongoing attacks certainly do not help the issue, but in general, France would do well to try and be a secular society that has a better overall relationship between the state and religion on the whole.
 
Son_of_Niall said:
Iran’s President Condemns Paris Terrorist Attacks

en.abna24.com/service/iran/archive/2015/11/14/719836/story.html
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Whilst I am totally against any form of violence to resolve this problem, I find it hard to believe ANY MUSLIM LEADER from any country denouncing this sort of thing, when they are systematically, and institutionally OPPRESSING and PERSECUTING Baha’is and other minority religious groups IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

The Iranian president has no standing on the issue of terrorism.
His country terrorises Baha’is every day.

.
 
Let’s put political correctness aside, in light of this most recent attack.

I am glad there are some Muslims willing to speak out. But it isn’t enough. It isn’t nearly enough. If Muslims really feel these guys are wrong, they need to be the dominate force, worldwide, in stopping the violence and on the front lines leading the charge. Lip service doesn’t impress me.

There is no longer any doubt that ISIS has established what they consider a caliphate and are trying to violently project their will on the rest of the world. They are calling Muslims to the caliphate. I think we have monkeyed around long enough. If a person goes to Syria or Iraq, without a specific mission to fight these extremists, or to support victims, they should not be allowed back into their home country (because of the risk of terrorism).

This article is a real eye-opener:

theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
 
Catholic_farmer said:
Let’s put political correctness aside, in light of this most recent attack.

I am glad there are some Muslims willing to speak out. But it isn’t enough. It isn’t nearly enough. If Muslims really feel these guys are wrong, they need to be the dominate force, worldwide, in stopping the violence and on the front lines leading the charge. Lip service doesn’t impress me.

There is no longer any doubt that ISIS has established what they consider a caliphate and are trying to violently project their will on the rest of the world. They are calling Muslims to the caliphate. I think we have monkeyed around long enough. If a person goes to Syria or Iraq, without a specific mission to fight these extremists, or to support victims, they should not be allowed back into their home country (because of the risk of terrorism).

This article is a real eye-opener:

theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
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I agree 100% with your post. we have monkeyed around long enough!
I saw a link to this article on another thread. Everyone needs to read it.
 
chero23 said:
And I completely agree with you.

Having said, no Middle East country has come out denouncing these attacks. You well know they know we’re the terrorists are in their backyard, why haven’t they done arrests?
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Iran’s condemnation has already been quoted in this thread.
 
Picky_Picky said:
Iran’s condemnation has already been quoted in this thread.
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This does not apply. Iran, Syria and other countries are only fighting ISIS because it threatens their existing governments. Or, in the case of Turkey and other countries, because they have killed their people. If, worldwide, Muslims led the fight against ISIS, on moral grounds (because they murdered innocent people) that would be different.

However, what I see, are Muslims in comfy countries saying publicly, “Oh, what a shame”, but no action is being taken to stop ISIS. If radicalized Muslims are working their way to the caliphate, why aren’t more regular Muslims taking up the fight against ISIS and heading that way as well? They should be leading the charge to defend the countries that have nurtured and supported them and their freedom to practice their religion. Instead, they are just making nice statements and continuing on with business as usual. In fact, many are secretly supporting ISIS or other, opposing terrorist groups. If any of them say, “This is wrong and this is what we are doing to stop ISIS”, then, they will have my attention. Pretty words will not stop the murder of Christians, nor other minorities. There has been no general call to rise up against genocide or ethnic cleansing, as Christians have done in the past, even for those of other religions.

For example, throughout history, when Christians behaved badly, it was other Christians who stopped them. Muslims are behaving badly now. Where are all the Muslims rising up to stop them?

Don’t try to placate me with empty words. Actions will tell me who you are.
 
Catholic_farmer said:
This does not apply. Iran, Syria and other countries are only fighting ISIS because it threatens their existing governments. Or, in the case of Turkey and other countries, because they have killed their people. If, worldwide, Muslims led the fight against ISIS, on moral grounds (because they murdered innocent people) that would be different.

However, what I see, are Muslims in comfy countries saying publicly, “Oh, what a shame”, but no action is being taken to stop ISIS. If radicalized Muslims are working their way to the caliphate, why aren’t more regular Muslims taking up the fight against ISIS and heading that way as well? They should be leading the charge to defend the countries that have nurtured and supported them and their freedom to practice their religion. Instead, they are just making nice statements and continuing on with business as usual. In fact, many are secretly supporting ISIS or other, opposing terrorist groups. If any of them say, “This is wrong and this is what we are doing to stop ISIS”, then, they will have my attention. Pretty words will not stop the murder of Christians, nor other minorities. There has been no general call to rise up against genocide or ethnic cleansing, as Christians have done in the past, even for those of other religions.

For example, throughout history, when Christians behaved badly, it was other Christians who stopped them. Muslims are behaving badly now. Where are all the Muslims rising up to stop them?

Don’t try to placate me with empty words. Actions will tell me who you are.
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OK so condemnation by Middle Eastern states doesn’t count because . . . they are Middle Eastern states. And condemnation by Muslims in the comfy West doesn’t count because . . . they are in the comfy West.

Tough world. Meanwhile those on the ground fighting ISIS are . . . those on the ground fighting ISIS.
 
Picky_Picky said:
OK so condemnation by Middle Eastern states doesn’t count because . . . they are Middle Eastern states. And condemnation by Muslims in the comfy West doesn’t count because . . . they are in the comfy West.

Tough world. Meanwhile those on the ground fighting ISIS are . . . those on the ground fighting ISIS.
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Let me explain this in another way.

I read about some Muslims condemning the actions, but here’s the issue. It just isn’t enough. It isn’t nearly enough. Places like Iran? Well, any independent group that takes over cities within a sovereign state is considered a threat to the existing government. No brainer why they would object. Nor, is it surprising that other Middle Eastern countries, such as Saudi Arabia or Turkey, with interests in Syria and Iraq, would object. It’s politics, not religion.

If, instead, I saw widespread outrage from Muslims at the beheading of innocent people or religious minorities. If I saw widespread objections to the terrorist attacks and a vigorous response. If, worldwide, Muslims led the fight against ISIS, on moral grounds (because they murdered innocent people) that would be different. If I saw Muslims rising up against these groups to redefine their faith as “non-violent” (which is actually not logically possible, based on their texts), I might be impressed. Otherwise, this is just lip service.

However, what I see, are Muslims in comfy countries saying publicly, “Oh, what a shame”, but no action is being taken to stop ISIS. In fact, most of these “condemnations” are so carefully worded as to indicate support for ISIS, if not for the act of terrorism. If radicalized Muslims are working their way to the caliphate, why aren’t more regular Muslims taking up the fight against ISIS and heading that way as well? They should be leading the charge to defend the countries that have nurtured and supported them and their freedom to practice their religion. Leading the charge to prove what their religion stands for. Instead, they are just making nice statements and continuing on with business as usual. In fact, many are secretly supporting ISIS or other, opposing terrorist groups. If any of them say, “This is wrong and this is what we are doing to stop ISIS”, then, they will have my attention. There has been no general call to rise up against genocide or ethnic cleansing, as Christians have done in the past, even for those of other religions. This is an important point.

For example, throughout history, when Christians behaved badly, it was other Christians who stopped them. Bosnia? Serbia? Germany? (though you could hardly label Hitler and Nazis as “Christian”). Countless African nations, where personal vendettas and corruption blinded those in power.

Muslims are behaving badly now. Where are all the Muslims rising up to stop them?

To the Muslim community, don’t try to placate me with empty words. Actions will tell me who you are and what you stand for. Lack of action tells me you are compliant or in agreement with the newly declared caliphate.
 
Catholic_farmer said:
Let me explain this in another way.

I read about some Muslims condemning the actions, but here’s the issue. It just isn’t enough. It isn’t nearly enough. Places like Iran? Well, any independent group that takes over cities within a sovereign state is considered a threat to the existing government. No brainer why they would object. Nor, is it surprising that other Middle Eastern countries, such as Saudi Arabia or Turkey, with interests in Syria and Iraq, would object. It’s politics, not religion.

If, instead, I saw widespread outrage from Muslims at the beheading of innocent people or religious minorities. If I saw widespread objections to the terrorist attacks and a vigorous response. If, worldwide, Muslims led the fight against ISIS, on moral grounds (because they murdered innocent people) that would be different. If I saw Muslims rising up against these groups to redefine their faith as “non-violent” (which is actually not logically possible, based on their texts), I might be impressed. Otherwise, this is just lip service.

However, what I see, are Muslims in comfy countries saying publicly, “Oh, what a shame”, but no action is being taken to stop ISIS. In fact, most of these “condemnations” are so carefully worded as to indicate support for ISIS, if not for the act of terrorism. If radicalized Muslims are working their way to the caliphate, why aren’t more regular Muslims taking up the fight against ISIS and heading that way as well? They should be leading the charge to defend the countries that have nurtured and supported them and their freedom to practice their religion. Leading the charge to prove what their religion stands for. Instead, they are just making nice statements and continuing on with business as usual. In fact, many are secretly supporting ISIS or other, opposing terrorist groups. If any of them say, “This is wrong and this is what we are doing to stop ISIS”, then, they will have my attention. There has been no general call to rise up against genocide or ethnic cleansing, as Christians have done in the past, even for those of other religions. This is an important point.

For example, throughout history, when Christians behaved badly, it was other Christians who stopped them. Bosnia? Serbia? Germany? (though you could hardly label Hitler and Nazis as “Christian”). Countless African nations, where personal vendettas and corruption blinded those in power.

Muslims are behaving badly now. Where are all the Muslims rising up to stop them?

To the Muslim community, don’t try to placate me with empty words. Actions will tell me who you are and what you stand for. Lack of action tells me you are compliant or in agreement with the newly declared caliphate.
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OK, so I’m a Muslim in Bradford, Yorkshire (well, no I’m not, but for the sake of argument I am). I express horror at the outrage in Paris. And now you expect me to leave my family and go fight them? Why? I have no responsibility for their actions. I am an imam in Paris. I go to the scene of the atrocities and I pray. And then, for goodness’ sake, I sing the Marseillaise. And now you expect me to leave my family and go fight them? Why?

Muslims have no more responsibility for the actions of Isis than you have as a Christian for the actions of the Lord’s Resistance Army.
 
Actually, collectively, they do. Look up how Muslims are supposed to view the caliphate.

Is that Muslim in England or the Imam in Paris speaking out only now? Where were they when the first innocent people were killed? Where are words and action taken to support the religious minorities under persecution? Where is the money donated to support refugees? What about the attacks in Africa? The burning of churches in Indonesia? The brutal killing of military members in England? The bombings in England? The bombing in Spain? Why haven’t they spoken out against genocide and ethnic cleansing? Why aren’t they out there denying the caliphate publicly? And what words did that Imam use? Where they condemning the ideology behind the actions? Or, just expressing sorrow for the people who died? There is a difference. I see only lip service and nothing actually done to declare the actions of ISIS and other terrorist groups immoral. I have never heard any Muslim publicly deny the caliphate. I have never heard the terms ‘genocide’ or ‘ethnic cleansing’ used by Muslims to describe the atrocities committed by ISIS or other terrorists (even for past actions, such as in Turkey).

Your actions define who you are. Muslims have defined themselves by their inaction.
 
There are gross generalizations, I admit, but if you understand what a caliphate is, then you’ll understand why it is so important for it to be denied and condemned by all Muslims with a conscience. A caliphate is the political and religious authority of all Muslims. By allowing it to exist unchallenged, they are complacent.

I still believe in the goodness of humans, regardless of religion, and I hope that Muslims will have enough of the violence at some point, and stand with all humans to defend the innocent against senseless slaughter. A few Muslims cannot speak for all, unless the majority allow it.

We Christians are certainly not free from blame. We tolerate far too much, even in our own countries. We know better, but it’s easier to do nothing. We have also been slow to respond to ethnic cleansing and genocide in the past.
 
Catholic_farmer said:
Actually, collectively, they do. Look up how Muslims are supposed to view the caliphate.

Is that Muslim in England or the Imam in Paris speaking out only now? Where were they when the first innocent people were killed? Where are words and action taken to support the religious minorities under persecution? Where is the money donated to support refugees? What about the attacks in Africa? The burning of churches in Indonesia? The brutal killing of military members in England? The bombings in England? The bombing in Spain? Why haven’t they spoken out against genocide and ethnic cleansing? Why aren’t they out there denying the caliphate publicly? And what words did that Imam use? Where they condemning the ideology behind the actions? Or, just expressing sorrow for the people who died? There is a difference. I see only lip service and nothing actually done to declare the actions of ISIS and other terrorist groups immoral. I have never heard any Muslim publicly deny the caliphate. I have never heard the terms ‘genocide’ or ‘ethnic cleansing’ used by Muslims to describe the atrocities committed by ISIS or other terrorists (even for past actions, such as in Turkey).

Your actions define who you are. Muslims have defined themselves by their inaction.
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Or perhaps you haven’t been listening. Meanwhile, how noisy have you been in condemnation of the Lord’s Resistance Army? Off to Africa, are you?
 
Picky_Picky said:
Or perhaps you haven’t been listening. Meanwhile, how noisy have you been in condemnation of the Lord’s Resistance Army? Off to Africa, are you?
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I’ve been there, actually. I did nine years of service in the military.

What have you done?
 
Jharek, forgive any impertinent intrusiveness, but are you perhaps Irish?
 
Catholic_farmer said:
I’ve been there, actually. I did nine years of service in the military.

What have you done?
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That is unanswerable. I apologise. My service militarily against terror has been solely through my son, and that was nasty enough.
 
I am not asking for much. I am asking the majority of Muslims to publicly deny the ISIS self-declared caliphate. (This is not a small area. I read that it’s located in part of both Iraq and Syria and is as big s the UK). Deny the authority of the self-declared political and religious center and authority of Islam. If they also sent many more of their sons and daughters to defend the countries that have sheltered them, that would be good, too.
 
Picky Picky…

What do you think of the Eastern Orthodox who have their land seized and Islam forced on them to the point the second generations could not survive under dhimmitude?..I have much pain for the Christians in Constantinople and the sacrilege of the Hagia Sophia…the same now for the Serbian Orthodox cathedral and churches in Kosovo, transferred through the hands of Bill Clinton.

I mean to say, and I understand where you are, God bless you…but there are places of Muslim domination of Christian religious sites…the wounds so deep and still hurting…and it is said we all carry the sins of our nations, and I would also add, of our religions.

I am finding out that Edgordan of Turkey wants to restore the caliphate and make Ankara the new headquarters…a new 1000 room palace for himself with new, separate buildings for other Muslim leaders of different lands.

And now in North London, a very militant Muslim group is now seeking Muslim show of force to struggle for the islamic state of England.

Again, I am adding here that we are all going to be stereotyped and involved whether we like it or not.
 
Nevertheless…I worked in a very poor country, and there was alot of anti capitalist talk in the air, very powerful…but nevertheless, saw actions and opinions of mine that were insensitive and selfish…and carrying the brunt of them…I went to confession…and was healed.
 
Stick with the OP please. The ethnic origins of posters is not what is being discussed.
 
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