Muslims battle against translation of i am

  • Thread starter Thread starter Defender1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Isn’t it true that in the Quran it states that Jesus was not crucified but looked like he was? But why would this whole “exercise” need to happen in the first place? :confused:

Unless Jesus actually said that he was God. Right?🤷

MJ
It is a teaching that it was not a Jesus but another , many preach Judas was crucified again no proof on their part .
 
There’s a big difference between saying:

John 9:9 Some said, “It is he”; others said, “No, but he is like him.” He said, “I am the man.

and saying:

[58] Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was**, ****I am.**”

For a man to say that He existed before Abraham who lived thousands of years ago and at the same time use the name I AM is completely different than someone saying “I am the man” even if the Greek word is the same.

Also, there is a passage in John that people seem to forget. First of all, how do we know that Jesus claimed to be God? We can know by seeing what the Jews thought he claimed. Even though Jesus didn’t say “I am GOD” does not mean that He didn’t claim to be God in a Jewish way. We have to understand Judaic context in 1st Century AD in order to know that Jesus did and said many things that point to Him claiming to be Divine. So the question is, did the Jews think He claimed to be God? Well, yes…

John10:
[32] Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?”
[33] The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God."
[34] Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, I said, you are gods'? [35] If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken), [36] do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, You are blaspheming,’ because I said, `I am the Son of God’?
[37] If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
[38] but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
[39] Again they tried to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands.

Also, there are many instances where Jesus uses the name I AM in a divine context. Someone can say “I AM going to the store” and it wouldn’t mean that they’re claiming to be God. But let’s see how Jesus uses the I AM in a couple of place:

Matthew 14
[23] And after he had dismissed the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray. When evening came, he was there alone,
[24] but the boat by this time was many furlongs distant from the land, beaten by the waves; for the wind was against them.
[25] And in the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea.
[26] But when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were terrified, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear.
[27] But immediately he spoke to them, saying, “Take heart, it is I; have no fear.
[28] And Peter answered him, “Lord, if it is you, bid me come to you on the water.”
[29] He said, “Come.” So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus;
[30] but when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out, “Lord, save me.”
[31] Jesus immediately reached out his hand and caught him, saying to him, “O man of little faith, why did you doubt?”
[32] And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.
[33] And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

First of all, the words translated as “it is I” are the same words in Greek that are translated as “I AM” in the other I AM passages. The Greek word is Ego Emi. So the passage can also be translated as “I AM, do not be afraid.” So when you see someone walking on the water and screaming out “I AM” it is a different I AM then if someone were to say “I AM going to the store…” It all depends on the context. Notice in verse 33, they pay Him homage which even further shows that Jesus is claiming to be divine and the Apostles were starting to understand it that way. Why else would they pay Him homage and worship?

Another passage where the meaning of the I AM is not just an “I am going to the store” type of meaning is:

John 8:
[24] I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I am he."

Again, “I AM HE” is EGO EMI in the Greek which is the same as the other I AMs. The context is key. The literal translation in the Greek would read “I told you that you would die in your sins, for you will die in your sins unless you believe that I AM.”

These are found throughout the Gospels but here is one more:

[2] Now Judas, who betrayed him, also knew the place; for Jesus often met there with his disciples.
[3] So Judas, procuring a band of soldiers and some officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, went there with lanterns and torches and weapons.
[4] Then Jesus, knowing all that was to befall him, came forward and said to them, “Whom do you seek?”
[5] They answered him, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus said to them, “I am he.” Judas, who betrayed him, was standing with them.
[6] When he said to them, “I am he,they drew back and fell to the ground.
[7] Again he asked them, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus of Nazareth.”
[8] Jesus answered, “I told you that I am he; so, if you seek me, let these men go.”

Same thing again: “I am he” is really “I AM” in the Greek (ego emi). When He tells them “I AM” they fall on the floor. Do you see the context and the difference between someone saying “I AM going to the store” and the way Jesus uses the “I AM”? It is completely different even if the Greek word is the same. The Greek word in the Septuagent that is used in Exodus 3 when God says He is the “I AM” is the same Greek word that is used by Jesus when He uses the I AM in these ways.

Hope that helps. God bless you. 🙂
THank you for these fine points
 
Hi there -

I was going to compare Exo 3.14 to John 8.58 for you - but I realized that the original Exodus was written in Hebrew while John was written in Greek.

So, since I could not compare apples to apples, I went to an all Greek Bible and here are the results.

Exodus 3.14
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς μωυσῆν **ἐγώ εἰμι **ὁ ὤν καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ισραηλ ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς

John 8.58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ἰησοῦς· ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ** ἐγὼ εἰμί.**

I’ll try to study some more for you, but I think it’s pointless talking about this to muslims.
THis is really useful thank you
 
It is a teaching that it was not a Jesus but another , many preach Judas was crucified again no proof on their part .
Yes, Im aware of Judas being believed (by Islamists) to have replaced Jesus. But the question still stands why a crucifixion?

Does the Quran state what the crucifixion was for? There has to be a reason. 🤷

MJ
 
Yes, Im aware of Judas being believed (by Islamists) to have replaced Jesus. But the question still stands why a crucifixion?

Does the Quran state what the crucifixion was for? There has to be a reason. 🤷

MJ
They claim "Crucify him they did not " I will have to go a back into my notes to see what the sura says .They base alot of their teaching on tradition of what they teach .
 
They claim "Crucify him they did not " I will have to go a back into my notes to see what the sura says .They base alot of their teaching on tradition of what they teach .
Pls go ahead and check your notes. Noted about tradition. But if the Quran states “Crucify him they did not” more description is needed. Tks.

MJ
 
I quoted many verses confirming Christ was GOd but no matter what I quote they will misinterpret it and quote something else that they misinterpret . They have been taught that no matter what the Christian says , he or she is wrong. I was hoping that someone here would be able to tell me about the translations of I AM
Yeah in my experience it is very hard to evangelize to Muslims, when confronted about the Koran and some contradictions, they dismiss it because only Arabic translations of the Koran are valid in Islam. Be aware of that, also they go on about what they hear from other Muslims about the Bible, but few pick it up to read.
 
cmje.org/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php
*
004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. *

I know Christians have tried to argue that this is just saying the Jews did not kill Jesus. Guilty- I go as far to say it is because of each of us sinners that Jesus was crucified-we killed Jesus.

And yes we agree GOD did:

*004.158
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
PICKTHAL: But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise. *

Muslims flat out deny the crucifixion.

**I ask to what end would allah fake Jesus’ crucifixion?

Think of the trauma this allah put on Jesus’ Disciples, HIS precious mother, followers for no reason.

Just think this allah’s deception is what created Christianity when Jesus was seen walking around 3 days later!!! What a goof OR deceiving god this allah of Islam is!!!**
 
I have already been in these methods before . The I AM argument is important but even though if there was a translation issue , verse 56 when Christ confirms himself being around when Abraham was on earth would knock the trans issue out would it not?
Most certainly
 
It’s funny how translations work. I’m not fluent in Greek, but I can read it and understand most of it, but Biblical Greek is something else.

I decided to take each word & break it down, just as it is written in John 8.58

εἶπεν = said

αὐτοῖς = to them

Ἰησοῦς, = Jesus,

Ἀμὴν = Amen

ἀμὴν = Amen

λέγω = I say

ὑμῖν, = to you

πρὶν = before

Ἀβραὰμ = Abraham

γενέσθαι = born

]ἐγὼ = I

εἰμί = am

I did not copy this from anywhere - I’m still testing out my studies in Greek… 😛
👍 amazing sister in Christ!, why did you decide to study Greek? is that language used nowadays anywhere except in Greece and the Christians scriptures?
 
👍 amazing sister in Christ!, why did you decide to study Greek? is that language used nowadays anywhere except in Greece and the Christians scriptures?
I’ve been studying Greek since I was little - my parents felt that I should know another language other than English…

Besides Greek, I also studied Spanish which I did not excel in and I also studied Russian, which I failed miserably… :o
 
By the way Sam - totally of topic but wanted to let you know that I missed you oh so much on here…

Last time we saw you was right when Ramadan stated…

Good to have you back my dear Brother in Christ…

As always… best regards & sending you big hugs…

Pam
 
By the way Sam - totally of topic but wanted to let you know that I missed you oh so much on here…

Last time we saw you was right when Ramadan stated…

Good to have you back my dear Brother in Christ…

As always… best regards & sending you big hugs…

Pam
Thank you sister in Christ, I was visiting Jesus churches around the world as we had many holidays during and after Ramadan, I visited Catholic and non-catholic churches, but I was disappointed by the dresses people wearing when attending masses in those churches, I know it’s summer but people shouldn’t go there as if they were going to the beach…, but overall I was spiritually happy to be close to the Most High when inside those Churches.
 
Now , I have been In debates with Muslims time and time again .The subject is Christ being GOD . I quoted from John 8:56-58 Where Christ confirms that he is “I AM” and I made the connection between that verse and EXODUS 3:14 Where GOD tells Moses to tell them that "I AM " sent him. This stubbed them for a moment , because their Quran tells them that those who speak against them and their book lie and they believe so , so whatever angle they can push to get their points across , they will . I am not a big studier of the Greek language . A middle eastern Muslim came back to me with an explanation . He said that the translation is different and does not translate to I AM.They also confirmed that neither verses translate to I AM. I came back with more points such as john 8:56 when Christ speaks of Abraham rejoicing to see his day and when he did was glad .Meaning that Abraham saw him . They came back with John 9:9 when the beggar confirms that I am . (notice I am and not I AM because the beggar was confirming who he himself was)CHrist and GOds I Am was included in a statement they were making .It seems as though they read from Muslim commentary and not the actual verses . YEt John 9:9 they claimed is the same exact translation as I AM in John 8:58 . AS you can see they are pricking at straws BUT DOES ANYONE KNOW ABOUT THE TRANSLATIONS OF I AM ?
The Jewish Bible was first revelation of God in writing. The Catholic Bible (including the New Testament Writings) is the second revelation of God. The beauty about these two are that the Catholic Bible does not remove anything from the Hebrew Bible when it cannonizes its own. It only adds some books to the Old Testament which the Hebrew Bible considered apocryphal and adds the New Testament. So the Catholics who came later do not contradict what God revealed to the Jews. It only adds more revelation. This is in line with the concept of progression of Revelation by God. He reveals himself slowly and progressively to humankind so that humankind may understand him.

Now comes the Muslim faith in about the latter part of the 5 century AD and earlier part of 6 the century AD. This faith teaches that both the Jewish Bible and the Catholic Bible are corrupted and only what their Koran says is true. This makes God a liar. So the very idea of having a debate with the Muslims itself is futile. It looks like even if God himself would come and tell them that the Christian Bible and the Jewish Bible was correct, they would tell him on his face that no it is wrong since it does not match with the Koran. Considering this, Isn’t it waste of time and energy to have such debates with Muslims?

Also they will not believe in Jesus as God, because He calls himself God and calls God his Father so clearly introducing another person in God. But why do they not believe in the God of the Jews? Did not the Jewish faith proceed from Abraham and they profess that their faith is also from Abraham? In that case what was the need for a new religion. Could not they have continued worshipping the God of Abraham.

God introduced his name as ‘I AM’ in the Jewish Bible. Jesus calls himself “I AM” so he is equating himself with God. The Jews who heard him had him crucified for that because they thought he was blaspheming for calling himself “I AM”. And yet if Jesus was not telling the truth then why would he call death upon himself by just saying that he is “I AM” when he knew what the Jews would do if he said that? He then must be a mad man who did not know the implication of what he said. If he is a mad man then why is the Muslim faith calling him a prophet and saying that he did not die but ascended into heaven without dying? The Muslim faith brings in a lot of contradictions which the Jewish and the Catholic Faith do not. Anyone who understand little bit of human logic can easily come to the conclusion what a delusion the Muslim faith is.
 
👍 amazing sister in Christ!, why did you decide to study Greek? is that language used nowadays anywhere except in Greece and the Christians scriptures?
You are a brave person!! You live in Saudi Arabia & I supposed that you are an apostate of Islam right?And I am amazed that you are still alive. hey buddy, do you live in Saudi or you are Just from Saudi and live in one of the western countries?

Just asking! because as far I know the penalty of apostasy in SA is death! or are you a hidden Christian? I mean your religious view made me a bit confused. Soul Christian and Flesh Muslim!!Would you explain me please?I heard that, to become a protestant Christian, Baptism by water is not necessary like Catholics.
 
You are a brave person!! You live in Saudi Arabia & I supposed that you are an apostate of Islam right?And I am amazed that you are still alive. hey buddy, do you live in Saudi or you are Just from Saudi and live in one of the western countries? Just asking! because as far I know the penalty of apostasy in SA is death! or are you a hidden Christian? I mean your religious view made me a bit confused. Soul Christian and Flesh Muslim!!Would you explain me please?I heard that, to become a protestant Christian, Baptism by water is not necessary like Catholics.
Hi Rain_Bow

You can read all about Sam from his avatar page:

Here is his link - He explains it all on there…:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3560529&postcount=1
 
Hey, okk Pam thanks. I will check it right now :).
R_B…

It’s a long thread and an old one as well.

Please do not reply to the thread…

The Mod’s on here do not want old threads bought forth…
 
R_B…

It’s a long thread and an old one as well.

Please do not reply to the thread…

The Mod’s on here do not want old threads bought forth…
Pam the Moderator 😛
Ill email you tomorrow about our plans, finally have some news…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top