Muslims, can you answer these questions?

[Booklover]

I really have no desire to participate in a thread which starts with such obvious ill-intent but I just like to suggest that those who are studying the ahadith so earnestly to try and find the answer to this question:

These are supposedly statements made by Muhammad! IIf you also find them embarrasing, why do you continue to believe in him?

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Why is the form and structure of the language used in the ahadith so different from that of the Qur’an?

**

After all, aren’t the words found in both written in Arabic and originated from the lips of the same man?

Are you trying to claim now that the hadiths are not to be trusted?

According to answering-christianity.com:
1- Only the Noble Quran is the Divine Revelation directly from Allah Almighty. The Hadiths are rather inspirations by Allah Almighty and His Angel(s) to the Prophet, which mostly and mainly covered social laws and issues.

Check out this link:
answering-christianity.com/sunrise_sunset_hadiths.htm

This hadîth is found in Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3199, 7424). Its text, as related by Abû Dharr al-Ghifârî, is as follows:The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to me: “O Abû Dharr! Do you know where the Sun goes when it sets?”I said: “Allah and His Messenger know best.”He said: “It goes until it prostrates beneath the Throne. Then it seeks permission and permission is granted to it. Soon it will prostrate and it will not be accepted from it, and seek permission and will not be granted permission. It will be said to it: ‘Go back where you came from.’ Then it will rise from its setting place. This is Allah’s statement: ‘And the Sun runs on to its place of settlement. That is the determination of the Mighty the Knowing. Sûrah YâSîn: 38]’.”

His reply:
So the Prophet wasn’t really trying to prove a scientific theory here, even though his statements above don’t make much scientific sense as far as our astronomists today would be concerned, because of the sun going underneath the throne of Allah Almighty and prostrating to Him and seeking His permission, etc… But, nonetheless, his statements above are not in HOSTILITY with science either, because no where did the Prophet, for instance, say that the sun goes through a hole on earth (as the Hindu scriptures say), nor did he say that the sun goes UNDER THE EARTH! He said that the sun goes underneath the throne of Allah Almighty, prostrates to Him and seeks His permission, which again proves my point about the Prophet wasn’t trying to say a scientific statement more than he was trying to really Glorify and Praise Allah Almighty as much as possible through his metaphoric speech. The clear-cut proof regarding his speech being metaphoric is the fact that he said that the sun prostrates to Allah Almighty, which is obviously different from how we, humans, prostrate to the Almighty GOD.

Does anyone else find this reply as ludicrous as I do? Or this?

“The Prophet, as we clearly an indisputably saw in the Noble Verses above, was given limited and little knowledge, and thus, we can’t expect sophisticated statements from him, because he didn’t know everything nor was he capable of giving anything sophisticated as far as science is concerned.”

And yet they claim that the Quran is full of scientific miracles! Talk about circular reasoning! When they can’t come up with a real answer, they come up with this!

Vickie

 

[se_goat]

“masjid” does not necessarily mean a mosque, but you knew that because you study Arabic. In fact, in that same sura it is used to refer to Solomon’s Temple. There are different interpretations of this, some believe it to be a “masjid in heaven” (“masjid” means place of prostration) and others see it as the Temple Mount. Some don’t even see it as a physical journey, but a dream of Mohammed’s.

sorry the quote feature is not working, but point taken

Also, if there were no palm trees then Palm Sunday would be a farce as well. But that appears not to be the case.

Having palm fronds is different from growing palm trees!

“I really have no desire to participate in a thread which starts with such obvious ill-intent but I just like to suggest that those who are studying the ahadith so earnestly to try and find the answer to this question: etc.”

those sound like the words of someone who cant defend the crazy statements made by the prophet of islam!

BTW - I am not starting this thread with ill-will, and am eager to hear responses because I am curious myself.

 

[Vaclav]

Oh, do you believe that absurdities deserve the same respect that profound teachings do?

I believe that a neutral third party could look at Christianity and Islam and see “absurdities” in both then invite all his friends over and play a game where they laugh at both religions.

Respect is not the same as belief. I am a Catholic so I do not believe in Islam, but I can respect those who do all the same.

Having palm fronds is different from growing palm trees!

Did you read the article where Israeli scientists are restoring the Jerusalem date palm? They do have palms in Jerusalem today, they are just imported from California. I don’t know when the native date palm stopped growing there, but it was growing for quite some time, at least until the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, which would place it after 73 AD, well after the birth of Christ.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
What did you actually discuss? I’m extremely interested in hearing about it.
Many aspects of Catholicism and Islam from Mary and Jesus to abortion and Israel. Your question is too broad to answer in one post.

That’s true. It was a very broad question. But you have to start somewhere, don’t you.

So,… to be specific,… what about Mary did you discuss with them?

But you have no desire to learn anything really, do you? All you wish to do is mock and ridicule.

Actually, to “mock” or “ridicule” islam is not what I do, or what I’m interested in. What I’m interested in is having someone who really KNOWS islam inform me of why I should believe that islam is from God when it specifically denies the very basis of my religion.

I say islam is nonsense because, to me, it is indeed nonsense.

…but I’d like to know why it’s NOT nonsense to those who believe in it.

I’m not out to prove to anyone that their religion is rubish. I’m out to see how they react when I tell them my beliefs as it pertains to their beliefs.

Most moslems don’t know “beans” about their religion, other than that they should “be nice” and “not do bad things”, and that Mamet is their god’s prophet.

Of course, the exact same thing could (should!) be said about so very many Christians…!

I’m perfectly OK with being called “in error” in relation to islamic principles, but it’s very hard to find a moslem who will allow me to call them “in error” in relation to Christianity.

That is one of our greatest problems right now. We have no understanding of the people in Iraq and without any sufficient understanding, we cannot possibly make any progress.

We have a very good understanding of the people of Iraq, to take one example of an “islamic” people we have difficulties with.

The problem in Iraq is that to do what REALLY needs to be done would be seen as “intolerable” to everyone involved, islamic and pseudo-Christian alike.

What really needs to be done is to seal off the country, let the internal factions kill each other off such that there is ONE “winner”, and if that winner won’t abide by “Christian principles” of civil conduct, anihilate them and start the process over again.

See what I mean by “not tolerable”…?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Vaclav]

I’m not out to prove to anyone that their religion is rubish. I’m out to see how they react when I tell them my beliefs as it pertains to their beliefs.

Most moslems don’t know “beans” about their religion, other than that they should “be nice” and “not do bad things”, and that Mamet is their god’s prophet.

I cannot help you there. I took a course on pre-15th Century Islam at university (only about a decade ago ) but I cannot speak as someone who is a true believer in the faith. I am a Catholic and you don’t need me to recite the Nicene Creed here.

On the other hand, surely one can show respect towards the beliefs of others. I don’t believe that is so difficult.

I say islam is nonsense because, to me, it is indeed nonsense.

Yet, there are points where we have common ground. We worship the same God (well, I’m assuming you are Christian). As a Catholic, we both believe that Mary is without sin. We both believe that Jesus is without sin. We have some of the same social views.

Of course there are differences, but that is obvious. What is to be gained by hotly arguing about those? I could understand discussing them in a decent debate, but to do that requires understanding both faiths and you already admit that you don’t care about doing that.

So,… to be specific,… what about Mary did you discuss with them?

With him, I didn’t have many opportunities to speak with his wife. Who, by the way, is a white American. We discussed the differing aspects of Mary in both our faiths, but also how Catholicism and Islam both view her as sinless, while Protestantism views her as having sin.

See what I mean by “not tolerable”…?

No. I see a rather simplistic “solution” to a complex matter.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
I’m not out to prove to anyone that their religion is rubish. I’m out to see how they react when I tell them my beliefs as it pertains to their beliefs.

Most moslems don’t know “beans” about their religion, other than that they should “be nice” and “not do bad things”, and that Mamet is their god’s prophet.
I cannot help you there. I took a course on pre-15th Century Islam at university (only about a decade ago ) but I cannot speak as someone who is a true believer in the faith. I am a Catholic and you don’t need me to recite the Nicene Creed here.

On the other hand, surely one can show respect towards the beliefs of others. I don’t believe that is so difficult.

I show respect toward individual people. They are VERY seldom actually evil.

I respect that they HAVE, and hold, the beliefs they do, but I don’t need to respect their actual beliefs, and if they can’t handle that fact then we can come to an agreement to not talk about that subject or, more interestingly, agree to talk about it but to not get “heated” and angry about our disagreements.

Quote:
I say islam is nonsense because, to me, it is indeed nonsense.
Yet, there are points where we have common ground. We worship the same God (well, I’m assuming you are Christian).

We’ll have to disagree about the moslem god being God, proper.

Actually, I do believe that moslems believe in our God, but they do so in spite of their religion.

The god that their religion presents to them is not God, but since moslems (generally) are “good people” and not “strict theologists” they are in the same “state” as any primitive people who don’t understand the real God, and are liable only to do their best to follow natural law.

It’s the “leaders” of islam who prop up the mask of islam’s god (idol) who will answer for their actions.

As a Catholic, we both believe that Mary is without sin. We both believe that Jesus is without sin. We have some of the same social views.

Do you also mutually believe that blue isn’t green, and that sharp isn’t dull?

Of course there are differences, but that is obvious. What is to be gained by hotly arguing about those? I could understand discussing them in a decent debate, but to do that requires understanding both faiths and you already admit that you don’t care about doing that.

I don’t like “hot” debate. I like finding out, at the deepest level possible, where we fundamentally disagree, and finding out specifically why we disagree, and then figuring out a way that we can live together cheerfully, fully knowing that we have those explicit differences.

My problem with moslems is that they don’t like to get the heart of the matter, because they seem to think that having explicit agreed upon differences means they’ve “LOST”, when it means no such thing.

Quote:
So,… to be specific,… what about Mary did you discuss with them?
With him, I didn’t have many opportunities to speak with his wife. Who, by the way, is a white American. We discussed the differing aspects of Mary in both our faiths, but also how Catholicism and Islam both view her as sinless, while Protestantism views her as having sin.

That’s interesting.

Quote:
See what I mean by “not tolerable”…?
No. I see a rather simplistic “solution” to a complex matter.

That would be correct…! And,… Yes you DO see how that would be intolerable…! Come on,… be honest…!

My point is that neither “side” should need to feel defensive about their beliefs, and the only way to “live together” is to first make explicit where we disagree, so that we can avoid stepping on each others toes.

Now,… it would be nice if I felt like I could discuss our “mutual incompatibilities” in a nice safe online forum, or even person to person, but I don’t feel comfortable doing so due to fear of moslem violence.

What is a solution to this?

Who is more “typically” violent in reaction to “discussions” of this type?

Let the more typically violent start the discussion.

(( Yes,… that’s cowardly. I freely admit that. I shall “do time” for my transgression, I’m sure… ))

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Montalban]

For some reason I dont believe the above quotes are real. I wouldnt be surprised if 75% of that was either made up by se_goat or he cut and pasted them.

Why not challenge for references rather than put forward your own opinions that might be found to be completely unfounded?

 

[Montalban]

Interesting aside

Also, if there were no palm trees then Palm Sunday would be a farce as well. But that appears not to be the case.

There are many types of palm tree.

 

[Montalban]

Mohammed’s Isra to Masjid al-Aqsa is impossible, seeing as there was no mosque in Jerusalem at that time.

This is silghtly wrong.

In the Sura Muhammed says he went to ‘the furthest Mosque’ (which means 'al Aqsa Mosque). It does not say where this mosque is.

Now years later the Moslems built a mosque in Jerusalem and called it the al Aqsa Mosque. Now Moslems make the mistake of assuming that Muhammed must have travelled to that mosque in Jerusalem. You’ve simply repeated their mistaken assumption that they’re one and the same mosque

 

[Montalban]

On the contrary, I had a very good friend and co-worker who is a Muslim. We would often have very reasonable discussions on faith and not a cross word was said. He and his wife very much had a love of their neighbour, no matter what faith they were, and he was always receptive to questions of faith, as was I.

Invite him over to this forum then. I believe the statement made, albeit a generalisation is true of the Moslems encountered on this forum.

It is characterizations like the one above that absolutely do not help to further communication between our faiths.

Moslems aren’t supposed to have dialogue between faiths, anyway. They present Islam. You submit. It’s that easy.

 

[Montalban]

I believe that a neutral third party could look at Christianity and Islam and see “absurdities” in both then invite all his friends over and play a game where they laugh at both religions.

And this proves nothing. Thanks for the truism.

 

[se_goat]

I think that this is one of the rare times that opposing voices on the forms have nothing to say because their point is so wrong it cannot be argued further.

I would like to declare victory.

zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/euro_medi_ren/Dendermonde2.jpg

In case you cant see, that link is of a classical sclupture that shows the angels trampling over Mohammed and the Koran.

Anyway, as a wrap up, I would be interested to know any Islamic forums so I can take my questions there.

 

[famdigy]

1. In Sura 19 (Maryam) the birth of Jesus was said to occur under a palm tree. There are no palm trees in Bethlehem/Jerusalem area. It regularly recieves snow.

you believe in the miracilous birth of christ, how is a palm tree any more miracilous than his birth?

1. Mohammed’s Isra to Masjid al-Aqsa is impossible, seeing as there was no mosque in Jerusalem at that time.

the arabic word masjid, means a place of prayer. and the Prophet used to say “the earth (bare ground or sand) has been made for me place of prayer (masjidan)…” Therefore a mosque is not required, because praying on the bare earth is sufficent to call that place a masjid

1. Human life was said to begin with a “blood clot”. I know this one has been gone over before, but fact remains, life does not begin with a blood clot.

I suppose we should accept that becuase you said so.

1. There are many, many, many wacky Hadith. There are so many that my friends and I regularly hold “Hadith Parties” in which we read the Hadith and laugh at some of its absurdities. Here are several of the funnier ones.

yes there are many wacky hadith. Some muslims accept the hadiths at face value while others use common sence and reasoning and the Quran as a criterion to accepting / rejecting any hadith.

I hope this answered your questions

 

[Montalban]

I think that this is one of the rare times that opposing voices on the forms have nothing to say because their point is so wrong it cannot be argued further.

Indeed there were many flaws in the OP.

I would like to declare victory.

All hail!

:bowdown:

 

[Vaclav]

I would like to declare victory.

I answered your questions (and I’m not even Muslim).

you believe in the miracilous birth of christ, how is a palm tree any more miracilous than his birth?

There are palm trees in Jerusalem today and there were then.

Therefore a mosque is not required, because praying on the bare earth is sufficent to call that place a masjid

Exactly. And in fact, the Temple of Solomon is referred to previously in the same Sura as a “masjid” so occasionally the word is also used in reference to a monotheistic site of worship.

There are numerous Islamic jurists who study the law and accept or reject specific Hadith based on authenticity.

One problem Christians have is that they expect Islam to be organised in the same way as many Christian religions (which is an odd expectation for Protestants), but it is not. There is no central hierarchy of all Islam.

And this proves nothing.

On the contrary Montalban, it proves that anyone can pick at single passages of religious texts and claim that a religion has “wacky rules.” It takes more understanding than mere glances to see that a religion goes beyond such juvenile comparisons as have been made of Islam in this thread.

Moslems aren’t supposed to have dialogue between faiths, anyway. They present Islam. You submit. It’s that easy.

Historically Muslims have had quite a bit of dialogue between Jews and Christians. The portraying of all of Islam as you have is a ludicrous generalisation.