Muslims - Catechism paragraph 841

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First, forgive me because I’m not officially Catholic, but I’m a Christian who no longer accepts the teachings and multiple interpretations found in Protestantism, and I’ve come to believe in the validity and authority of the Catholic Church.

Please help me. In the message boards of a separate internet website, I’ve encountered a Protestant fundamentalist who is asking me to comment about a paragraph in the Catholic Catechism which speaks about Muslims. It is the following:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

He claims the paragraph states that Muslims share the same fate as Christians, implying that because Muslims worship the same God as Christians, they don’t need to accept Jesus as Lord and their Savior in order to go to Heaven. I have no idea what to say in response to him. Can you please give me some advice about how to answer his question? Thanks!
 
onthenarrowpath said:
First, forgive me because I’m not officially Catholic, but I’m a Christian who no longer accepts the teachings and multiple interpretations found in Protestantism, and I’ve come to believe in the validity and authority of the Catholic Church.

Please help me. In the message boards of a separate internet website, I’ve encountered a Protestant fundamentalist who is asking me to comment about a paragraph in the Catholic Catechism which speaks about Muslims. It is the following:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

He claims the paragraph states that Muslims share the same fate as Christians, implying that because Muslims worship the same God as Christians, they don’t need to accept Jesus as Lord and their Savior in order to go to Heaven. I have no idea what to say in response to him. Can you please give me some advice about how to answer his question? Thanks!
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catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea4.asp

Meditate and study upon these, then when you have a firm grasp, reply.

I hope this helps.

God Bless.

Chris.
 
This passage cites Lumen Gentium #16. However, it would be wrong to conclude that this means that Muslims don’t need to have Christ. Lumen Gentium 14 states:

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

This section is dealing with people who do not know Christ through no fault of their own, and have no way of knowing Christ will not be held to blame for what they do not know. We do not believe Islam saves however.

You should refer your friend to passages further down in the Catechism:
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”
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844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.
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845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.”
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According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.
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I hope this helps
 
Yes, you have both helped a lot. I will pass on what you have shared with me. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it.
 
onthenarrowpath said:
He claims the paragraph states that Muslims share the same fate as Christians, implying that because Muslims worship the same God as Christians, they don’t need to accept Jesus as Lord and their Savior in order to go to Heaven. I have no idea what to say in response to him. Can you please give me some advice about how to answer his question? Thanks!
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It is unfortunate that this idea found its way into the catechism because its not true.
There is no salvation for Muslims, or anyone who rejects Jesus.

Two opposing ideas cannot both be true. God cannot both want non-believers to be killed, and not want non-believers to be killed. Either we must love our neighbour, or kill them as infidels. We cannot say that both are true and both are what God wants. One is true and one is a lie. One is from God and the other from satan.
 
Lisa44 said:
It is unfortunate that this idea found its way into the catechism because its not true.
There is no salvation for Muslims, or anyone who rejects Jesus.

Two opposing ideas cannot both be true. God cannot both want non-believers to be killed, and not want non-believers to be killed. Either we must love our neighbour, or kill them as infidels. We cannot say that both are true and both are what God wants. One is true and one is a lie. One is from God and the other from satan.
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It didn’t find its way into the Catechism, because it is not what was taught by the Catechism. A recognition that Muslims believe they hold the faith of Abraham, and believe God will judge us on the last day is not the same thing as saying Islam is valid in and of itself.
 
onthenarrowpath said:
It is the following:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

He claims the paragraph states that Muslims share the same fate as Christians, implying that because Muslims worship the same God as Christians, they don’t need to accept Jesus as Lord and their Savior in order to go to Heaven. I have no idea what to say in response to him. Can you please give me some advice about how to answer his question? Thanks!
Click to expand...
The Church in her wisdom has said only what truthfully can be said; ‘these profess to hold’ gives no indication of agreement that they follow the faith of Abraham in truth, but acknowledges points of agreement (imo) as a means for them to use as a bridge to understanding the truth.

I also think naming them specifically as the Catechism does should be taken as a warning to Catholic/Christians to be aware of that ideology as much as it might be taken as a place of diplomatic honor.
 
Zoroastrians worship one god too, shouldn’t they be included in the plan of salvation then by this logic?
 
Crimson_Seraph said:
Zoroastrians worship one god too, shouldn’t they be included in the plan of salvation then by this logic?
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Yes, according to the source from which the Catechism has drawn:
Lumen Gentium 16:
Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.
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The key point is to recognize that any individual encounter with the divine is necessarily an encounter with Christ: the Logos “enlightens every man” (Jn 1:9). Peter Kreeft puts it this way: “No one can know God except through Christ (Jn 1:18); but pagans know God (Acts 17:28, Rom 2:14-16); therefore pagans know Christ.”

There’s a distinction between professing Christianity and knowing Christ, and it’s through this distinction that those who don’t profess Christianity can be (but aren’t necessarily) saved.
 
Crimson_Seraph said:
Zoroastrians worship one god too, shouldn’t they be included in the plan of salvation then by this logic?
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What GJx86 says is correct. However, there is a problem with your question. Zoroastrians worship one god, but they do not worship the One God that Christians, Jews and Muslims worship.
 
I, too, am perplexed about this part of the catechism. The statement, “and together with us they adore the one, merciful God,” is especially troubling. We Christians, of course, have no fellowship whatsoever with Muslims in terms of worship. I did read Jimmy Akin’s piece, “Brass Tacks, The Catechism on Islam,” July-August 2002. The article attempts to put the catechism’s statement on Islam in the best possible light; still, I think it falls far short of a satisfactory reply to those of us who are disturbed by paragraph 841. I believe a better response to paragraph 841 is CARM’s article, “Is the Catholic Catechism’s view on the Muslim god wrong?” CARM’s position regarding paragraph 841 is that “This cannot be true.” I would concur.

If I were ever to convert to catholicism (which is unlikely), I don’t think I’d be able to adopt the Vatican II version of it. It appears that since Vatican II the Catholic Church is making overtures to unite all the world’s religions under the umbrella of one worldwide church, the Novus Ordo church. The traditionalist, pre-Vatican II catholic church (the only one I would ever consider joining, if I decided to become catholic) would also be problematic for me, since I could never envision a eucharistic life of communion under only one species. This is just not apostolic (cf. 1 Cor. 10:16).
 
DavWan said:
This passage cites Lumen Gentium #16. However, it would be wrong to conclude that this means that Muslims don’t need to have Christ. Lumen Gentium 14 states:

This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

This section is dealing with people who do not know Christ through no fault of their own, and have no way of knowing Christ will not be held to blame for what they do not know. We do not believe Islam saves however.

You should refer your friend to passages further down in the Catechism:

I hope this helps
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This is where I would have also directed him.
Like the Jews who preceded us, the Muslims likewise trace their history to Abraham. The difference is that the Muslims trace their heritage through Ismail rather than Isaac.
It is currently Eid Al Adha. Muslims celebrate Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his only son in total submission to God. Islam means submission to God. It is during this time that many make Haj, or pilgrimage to Mecca. A major difference in Muslim teaching is that Abraham was willing to sacrifice Ismail, while as Christians we hold (along with Jews) that it was Isaac that Abraham was about to sacrifice. God praised Abraham for his obedience. Abraham in turn sacrificed the ram that God provided for the holocaust.

CCC846…all salvation comes from Christ the head through the Church which is His Body.

CCC847 affirms the Church’s teaching regarding the Baptism of Desire for those “who, nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through their conscience–those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

CCC848…the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.
 
“CCC847 affirms the Church’s teaching regarding the Baptism of Desire for those ‘who, nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through their conscience–those too may achieve eternal salvation.’”

St. Paul says in Romans 10 regarding the Jews (NAB):

“I testify with regard to them that they have zeal for God, but it is not discerning. For, in their unawareness of the righteousness that comes from God and their attempt to establish their own (righteousness), they did not submit to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for the justification of everyone who has faith.”

I would submit that sincere Muslims share the same fate as the sincere Jews that St. Paul mentions here, who have not submitted to the righteousness of God and thus have not been justified by faith. If they continue in this unbelief, they will not be saved, no matter how sincere their heart is.

Paragraph 841 is therefore not true. It contradicts the Scripture.
 
onthenarrowpath said:
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

He claims the paragraph states that Muslims share the same fate as Christians, implying that because Muslims worship the same God as Christians, they don’t need to accept Jesus as Lord and their Savior in order to go to Heaven.
Click to expand...
We have the same problem pulling a single section out of the catechism and drawing conclusions from it as we have pulling a single verse out of the Bible and drawing conclusions.

All the catechism does in these sections is acknowledge what truth we can find in the belief systems of non-Catholics.

841 does not say Muslims will be saved by being Muslim or anything close to it.

I’m sure your friend would equally object to section 846 which pretty clearly refutes what he claims about 841 **

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that****all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own**, do not know Christ and his Church:** Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 " “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

Though the Church must acknowledge the truth that God may choose to save some who through no fault of their own are unaware of the Gospel message, that in no way leads us to conclude that the Church somehow embraces universalism. If you wanted to fairly accuse the Church of anything it would be exactly the opposite.

Chuck
 
clmowry said:
We have the same problem pulling a single section out of the catechism and drawing conclusions from it as we have pulling a single verse out of the Bible and drawing conclusions.

All the catechism does in these sections is acknowledge what truth we can find in the belief systems of non-Catholics.

841 does not say Muslims will be saved by being Muslim or anything close to it.

I’m sure your friend would equally object to section 846 which pretty clearly refutes what he claims about 841 **

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that****all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own**, do not know Christ and his Church:** Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 " “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please Him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

Though the Church must acknowledge the truth that God may choose to save some who through no fault of their own are unaware of the Gospel message, that in no way leads us to conclude that the Church somehow embraces universalism. If you wanted to fairly accuse the Church of anything it would be exactly the opposite.

Chuck
The bottom line is that salvation is from God. It is not something we achieve on our own.
“I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through me. And nobody comes to me except the Father draw him.”
As humans, we do not know how God is drawing a person to himself. As members of His body, our lives bear witness to the salvation to which all are called.
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It’s unfortunate that paragraph 841 is worded the way it is, being open to so many differing interpretations. Perhaps we need another magisterium to interpret what the magisterium has written here in the catechism…😉

I still find it quite disturbing that the catechism states that Muslims and Catholics adore the same God. Catholics, you know this is not true. Catholics worship and adore the Holy Trinity. Muslims worship and adore an entirely different god, which is no god at all.

Are there any statements in pre-Vatican II catechisms that Catholics and Muslims adore the same God?
 
This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, “He is our peace who hath made both one.”
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Pope Gregory VII to al-Nazir, King of Mauritania. The year? 1076.
 
This is a fascinating quote, Nooj. Thank you for pointing it out.

Imagine: A pope stating, “we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore him as the creator and ruler of this world.”

But is this truly Catholic doctrine? I know Catholics and Muslims worship using vastly different forms. Even a superficial glance would indicate that whom they worship is different.

I wonder in what context this statement by Pope Gregory VII was made? Was it like JPII’s kissing of the Koran?

If Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, why is Pope Benedict urging the release of a Christian woman in Pakistan who has been sentenced to death for “blasphemy”–insulting the Prophet Muhammad? I thought Christians and Muslims “adored” the same God?
 
(Edited to remove quote of deleted post.)
How does the form of worship change the object (God) of worship, if at all.

I submit that God is not changed because individuals, and groups, determine to describe Him differently or worship Him differently.
 
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