Muslims - Catechism paragraph 841

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How does the form of worship change the object (God) of worship, if at all.

I submit that God is not changed because individuals, and groups, determine to describe Him differently or worship Him differently.
Thank you.
Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the same God, the God of Abraham. Each of us has a different understanding of who God is.
The story that comes to mind at the moment is that of the blind men who tried to describe an elephant. Each described the elephant differently based on what he felt–the tail, the leg, the ear, the trunk.

As Christians we accept that God has revealed himself in the Son through whom we have redemption. It is only in Christianity that we find God described as a Triune God.
“…but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.” [1 Cor. 1:23-25]
 
Do Jews understand God as the Trinity? No so does that mean they do not worship the same God?

Do we worship the God of Abraham or not? The matter is simple, if you say no then our entire faith is in vain and Jesus Christ our Lord was nothing but a farce.

If we do then, as the Catechism states, those who profess to hold the faith in the God of Abraham, by definition worship the same God.
 
I too have a huge–huge—problem with this statement, as well as other statements from Paul VI, as especially JPII kissing that evil book, the Quran, and Benedict XVI visiting mosques and praying there with Muslims as if mosques–where people are specifically instructed to deny Jesus Christ and blaspheme the Holy Trinity—are somehow special places that lead people to our Lord. Islam doesn’t lead people to God: it drags souls to hell. Christ specifically instructed us to love our neighbors as ourselves for the love of Him: letting people stagger in the darkness of a false, demonic religion is NOT love, and it is not truth. We must help these people, not encourage them.

I know that popes are mere men, and they can sin, and JPII sinned when he kissed the Quran, and Benedict XVI sinned by participating the worship practices of a false religion that denies our Lord. I also know that the pope is protected from error by the Holy Ghost when defining matters on faith and morals in a solemn way binding for the whole Church. Muslims do not worship the same God as Catholics, and they certainly do not worship the “same God” who will judge us on the last day: we know for a fact that our judge is Jesus, yet the entire Islamic cult rejects Jesus Christ, calls him a liar, totally rejects the Trinity, expressly tells people NOT to worship Jesus or the Holy Trinity. Many Catholics don’t know that the Quran, which Muslims claim is the word of “Allah”, even specifically states that Christians will be dragged to hell to be tortured and burned on the last day, and that “Allah” will taunt us “where are my partners now?” That is, where is Jesus and the Holy Ghost now? What a reprehensible cult. Mohammad mocked our Lord even worse than the centurions who crucified Him. He was a horrible man.

Oh, it is just so troubling that V2 would even pretend to praise the demonic cult this evil man concocted and forced on people. This is in the Quran, the so-called “holy” book of this cult, but that which is in the “holy” Sunnah and Hadiths is even worse. Mohammad was a psychopathic murderer who had 15 wives, one of which was just nine years old when he “consummated” the “marriage,” (to the shock of his own followers), a man who instructed someone to cut of the clitoris of one his wives, and a total complete heretic: holy Archangel Gabriel was not talking to him, despite his evil man’s arrogant claims—satan was talking to him. It is just so, so troubling for me that a pope would even think about kissing that evil, evil book, the Quran, or lavishing praise on Islam when it is pulling so many millions of souls to hell. I think of all the martyrs who were tortured to death by Muslims for not compromising one bit, and not kissing that evil book for “submitting” to that evil cult. Praise these saints and martyrs, who converted people from Islam even with their own blood unto the point of death itself. How JPII could even pray for Blessed St John the Baptist to “protect Islam” is completely beyond me. I pray for St Michael to smash the devil’s head and send him back to hell with all his lies and false religions, including Islam. It is just not right: we hurt our Lord by even thinking these things, and the popes should not be acting like this.

I pray for the conversion of all people, the Muslims, Jews, Protestants, the Eastern church, the Hindus and Buddhists and all pagans, and the return of all lost Catholics to the one flock, under our one Shepard. There is so much that I just don’t understand about V2, and about the words and acts of the popes since. These poor Muslims and others are lost in darkness, in false religions which we know through scripture are the work of devils: we cannot just sit back and tell these poor souls that they are on the right track, “worshiping the same God,” as us, and go pray with them and kiss their evil books! They are lost: we will have to answer for wrongly telling these little sheep, “its, okay, little sheep, keep going!” as they wander further from our Shepard. We need to call to them, “come back, come back from the wolves! Come back to your Shepard!” We will answer for this before the Just Judge (who is not “Allah”) one last day. Oh, I am so troubled by it. Pray for the Church and the conversion of all these poor souls.
 
How does the form of worship change the object (God) of worship, if at all.

I submit that God is not changed because individuals, and groups, determine to describe Him differently or worship Him differently.
When was the last time you saw a Muslim reverently take the cup of blessing to their lips and drink the Precious Blood?

When was the last time you saw a Catholic perform ritual ablutions, pull out their prayer rug, and ritualistically pray to Allah five times each day?

The form of worship does change the object of worship.
Do we worship the God of Abraham or not?..If we do then, as the Catechism states, those who profess to hold the faith in the God of Abraham, by definition worship the same God.
The problem here is the assumption that Muslims worship the God of Abraham. They do not. Jesus Christ is the God of Abraham. Allah is the god of Muslims.

Thank you, Keri007. It’s heartening to see a Catholic defend the truth. What Vatican II has done is to create a New Age-type religion. Vatican II teaching has, like a frog in a pot of water on the stove, slowly turned up the temperature until it has cooked the frog without the frog being aware of it. The present-day Catholic Church has become a new religion without most Catholics being aware of it.
 
Thank you, Keri007. It’s heartening to see a Catholic defend the truth. What Vatican II has done is to create a New Age-type religion. Vatican II teaching has, like a frog in a pot of water on the stove, slowly turned up the temperature until it has cooked the frog without the frog being aware of it. The present-day Catholic Church has become a new religion without most Catholics being aware of it.
Protestants and Traditionalists agreeing with each other on how corrupt the Catholic Church is. Fascinating.
 
Hi Nooj,

The passing words and actions of men, even popes, are not the “Catholic Church” and so they do not describe the “corruption of the Catholic Church,” but rather the corruption of men in with Church. We have had weak popes, that is certain, and sinful popes. When a pope speaks in his infallible capacity, which is expressly limited to his role as leader of the Magisterium while solemnly defining matters of faith and morals that are necessary to be held and believed by the universal Church for salvation, then we know that he is protected from error by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 16:19), which also includes an assurance from Jesus to Peter and His Church that the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it (His Church).” Unfortunately, that does not mean that the gates of hell will not try.

The Catholic Church is the ultimate prize of satan’s aims. He wants it so bad, because he knows that it is only through the Catholic faith that the little sheep escape his mashing jaws, and rush instead to paradise with our Blessed Lord, who is his enemy. It is interesting, what you say, because one of the sharpest spears which some individuals “in” the Church (especially since V2 but even before that through modernist attacks) attempt to thrust (that is, one of the commonest means of man’s corruption they advance) is exactly trying to transform the True Church into a sort of Protestantism. It will not work, but they will malevolently and pridefully thrust nonetheless. The True Church does not change: like a strong mother with twelve wild youngsters, even when her children are ignoring her and disobeying her, she stays strong and firm and does not waver, because like any good mother, she knows better than them, and she knows that if she wavers, her beloved children will be hurt. There are a lot of childish things happening with people in the Church, and there has been for a long time. Thank God (literally) that our Lord has promised us that His Church will prevail to the end of time, even if in only a small minority (“how many will I find?” asks Jesus).

There have been so many attempts by men over these two millennia to establish counterfeit churches: just ask St Athananius, who was up against some 95% of the “Catholic” bishops at the time, who were actually heretics who accepted Arianism yet appeared to be bishops (heretics lose jurisdiction in the Church, so by their very words they cast away their authority even if they kept their hats). Much later came Luther, a Catholic priest himself, who didn’t simply protest against the corruptions of men in the Church (of which there was plenty at the time, as there are now), but actually protested against the dogmatic teachings of the Church, delivered from Jesus Himself. We can see the fruits of his errors and heresies (and Calvin’s, and Zwingli, and so many others) today: as a result, there are now some 25,000 “Protestant denominations”, or counterfeit churches, wherein you’ll find every kind of horrible error and heresy, from the most common heresy that our Lord somehow lied when he said “This is My Body” (common to all Protestantism of which I am aware), to the idea that Jesus was actually just Archangel St Michael (Jehovah Witnesses), to that the idea that souls are not immortal (Seventh Day Adventists), to even the idea that humans become gods and that the Trinity is “wrong” and the Godhead is actually three distinct gods (Mormonism). The common thread through all these counterfeit churches and false religions, from the very first gnosticism Paul fought, to every Protestant denomination, is that they are all the products of some private “revelations” of mere men. Constrast this to the Catholic Church, the institution established by Jesus Christ Himself. There is no comparison. I pray that people in positions in the Church today think long and hard about that. Catholicism is only correct Christianity, and is the one true Faith as revealed by Jesus Christ personally and preserved in faith, truth, form, scripture, and tradition in his Church.

There can be no doubt that corruption of people in the Church is widespread: we only have to look so far as this outrageous and reprehensible sexual predation scandal and cover-up. We know there is corruption in the Church in the words, acts, and deeds of men. But the faith of the Church is incorruptible, because it was deposited by Christ Himself and Christ Himself protects it. Unfortunately, He has to protect His Church still from these Protestant beliefs which are being thrust at Her. No matter how many times She is struck, however, the True Church marches on. The facts of faith do not change, even if 100% of Protestants, Jews, Muslims, and pagans reject the truth, and even if 99.999% of the Catholics (in baseball caps or red caps) reject them. She keeps her gaze solidly on His beautiful face as She marches through great trials, as satan fathers yet another counterfeit church after counterfeit church and entices so many to betray from our God. This will continue until the last day, when our Lord will settle the score. We must stay true to the revealed teachings of our Lord and pray, pray, pray for the conversions of all others from spiritual blindness and willful rejection, and warn them of their errors in kindness and charity. We must likewise pray, pray, pray that we ourselves do not follow the death-dealing tongues of heretics away from our Lord, and like little sheep, get ravished by these wolves.

Our Lord has laid one path for us to Him, not 25,000 paths. He has made it as simple as it can be, if we just put away our egos and do as He asks.
 
Hi again Nooj,

I would also like to the respond to the quote from Pope Gregory VII that you put above in another post. As you mentioned, this was in a letter from the pope to a prince. It was also just a few years before the Crusades, interestingly.

What I would like to point out is that a simple letter from a pope to another is certainly not an infallible statement. I’m guessing that you are not presenting the letter as some kind of infallible statement (your religion says “none”, so you apparently haven’t accepted papal infallibility), but I just wanted to reiterate this. There are other statements from popes in very public and authoritative capacities from two councils which were accepted by the Magisterium and approved by popes. Here are a couple:

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312:
“It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (the followers of Islam, also called Muslims) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands.

Not too much later, at another council:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, Session 19, Sept. 7, 1434:
“Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”

You may already know this, but the quote you posted is also in a statement of the US Conference of Bishops, a long statement by John Borelli. It is disheartening that instead of quoting Magisterial statements issued in official capacities during two Councils, the author of that statement chose to use a salutary letter from a pope to a prince. Incidentally, so did John Paul II, which is another place this letter surfaced before John Borelli quoted it, and he explains this is his own statement. Unfortunately, it appears that some people are more interested in not “hurting other people’s feelings” that defending our Lord and trying to bring to Him as many of his beloved little sheep as possible before it is too late. Please, everyone, pray for the conversion of each and every Muslim.
 
If Muslims do not worship the God of Abraham, then why do they celebrate Eid Al-Adha?
Eid Al-Adha commemorates Abraham’s submission and obedience to God. As God provided Abraham with the sacrificial ram, Muslims likewise slaughter an animal as sacrifice. 1/3 of the meat is eaten by family, 1/3 given to friends, and 1/3 donated to the poor.
Muslims trace their lineage to Abraham through Ismael in the same way that Jews and Christians trace their spiritual lineage through Isaac. Both Isaac and Ismail were circumcised. “As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a great nation of him also, since he too is your offspring.” (Gen 21:13).
A major difference between the Koran and the Bible is that the Bible says, “Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on the height that I will point out to you.” The Koran will say that it is Ismail that God commanded Abraham to sacrifice.

I am aware of the misconceptions others have regarding what Catholics believe. For this reason I ask those who profess a particular faith or religion what they believe; accepting what members of that faith or religion tell me over what people who are not members of that religion say about it. I live and work in a Muslim country where Eid Al-Adha is currently being celebrated.

Yes, adherents of Islam are called to pray 5 times a day following a set ritual. Many finger their beads throughout the day.
Many Catholics pray the LOTH which marks the hours of the day in obedience to the command to pray unceasingly. We pray the rosary. Some pray the Angelus at 6am, noon, and 6 pm. Others set aside 3pm, the hour when Jesus was crucified, to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet. Catholics are often accused of ritualistic prayer.

While Muslims may worship the same God as us, they do not accept the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The very idea of the incarnation is an absurdity. That is their loss. Either that, or we are “the greatest of fools,” as St. Paul says because we do believe.
 
If Muslims do not worship the God of Abraham, then why do they celebrate Eid Al-Adha?
This is like saying, “If Protestants are not Catholics, why do they celebrate Christmas?” Because Protestants celebrate Christmas doesn’t mean they’re Catholics. Muslims may celebrate a festival pertaining to Abraham and Isaac (correction…Ishmael; the Catholics have “corrupted” the text here!); it doesn’t mean, though, that the god they worship is Abraham’s God. You’re not claiming as a Catholic that Abraham worshipped Allah, are you?

Here is Catholic doctrine: 1 John 2:23 says (Douay-Rheims), “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son hath the Father also.”

Muslims deny the Son, Jesus Christ. They may confess him as a “prophet,” but they do not confess the Catholic faith regarding him, which is that he is the Son of God the Father.

Nooj, you’re absolutely right that this is quite fascinating that I, a Protestant, and Keri007, a Traditionalist Catholic, are in agreement on this issue and it’s heartbreaking that we even have to debate with Catholics whether Muslims and Catholics worship the same God.

I mean, honestly, I used to attend mass in a Catholic church before reverting back to being a Reformation Protestant, and never once did I worship Allah. Never.
 
This is like saying, “If Protestants are not Catholics, why do they celebrate Christmas?” Because Protestants celebrate Christmas doesn’t mean they’re Catholics. Muslims may celebrate a festival pertaining to Abraham and Isaac (correction…Ishmael; the Catholics have “corrupted” the text here!); it doesn’t mean, though, that the god they worship is Abraham’s God. You’re not claiming as a Catholic that Abraham worshipped Allah, are you?

Here is Catholic doctrine: 1 John 2:23 says (Douay-Rheims), “Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son hath the Father also.”

Muslims deny the Son, Jesus Christ. They may confess him as a “prophet,” but they do not confess the Catholic faith regarding him, which is that he is the Son of God the Father.

Nooj, you’re absolutely right that this is quite fascinating that I, a Protestant, and Keri007, a Traditionalist Catholic, are in agreement on this issue and it’s heartbreaking that we even have to debate with Catholics whether Muslims and Catholics worship the same God.

I mean, honestly, I used to attend mass in a Catholic church before reverting back to being a Reformation Protestant, and never once did I worship Allah. Never.
Both Catholics and Protestants are Christians. So of course, both celebrate the Birth of Christ at Christmas.

Muslims are not Christian. Neither are Jews. What both deny is Jesus Christ as the Messiah that was promised to the descendants of Israel. Does the Jewish denial of Jesus as Messiah mean that they do not worship the same God as we do?

Again, the person to ask about personal beliefs is the person who claims to be a member of that religion. Allah is the standard Arab word for God. Elohim is the Hebrew word. El Shaddai means God Almighty. As English speakers, we use the word “God,” while the French use “Dieu,” and the Italians use “Dio.”
Abraham lived among polytheists. He rejected the false gods to follow the one true God. Muslims trace their spiritual heritage to Abraham.

While Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians, they do not have the same understanding as Christians. They do not accept God’s Triune nature.
 
Can we all agree that Jews worship the same God as Christians, even though they reject Jesus and the Trinity? They reject later revelation and thus understand Him incompletely, and worship Him under forms that are no longer necessary, but there’s no indication that they’ve gone and changed to an entirely different deity. The early Christians were worshipping the Jewish God in a new way, so it would be very strange to say that we and the Jews now worship different Gods.

Similarly, you don’t have to give Islam any credence at all to understand that its teachings were assembled from bits of Judaism and Christianity, including the stories of Abraham and even of Jesus. Yes, their versions of the stories are quite different, and they justify that by claiming that they have the originals, which we and the Jews corrupted. Obviously I think they are completely wrong and that they don’t really understand God at all, but even as a purely historical matter I can acknowledge that they got their ideas from us and therefore are at least trying to worship the same God that Jews and Christians acknowledge.

I seem to recall that, for awhile in the Middle Ages, when Christians didn’t know much about Islam, the latter was actually regarded as a Christian heresy rather than a separate religion. So it actually makes sense that Catholic leaders over the centuries would both acknowledge that Christianity and Islam are “aiming” at the same deity while also being very clear that the Muslim version is a false and spiritually harmful understanding.

If I have been told lies all my life about a particular man named Frank, Frank’s friends will surely know better and seek to correct me, even though they may also acknowledge (if I am able to describe some elements of Frank’s life correctly) that I have been misled specifically about the Frank they know, and not about some other guy entirely. They might say something like “You’re talking about a completely different person,” but they don’t literally mean that there are two Franks, mine and theirs. There is one Frank, but they know him better and I have been fed only lies about him.

Likewise, there is only one God. We Christians have the final and complete revelation of God through His Son Jesus. The Jews and Muslims do not. However, because we still use the Scriptures of the Jews that describe God as He was understood before the coming of Jesus (and as modern Jews still understand Him), we can acknowledge that they are trying to follow the same God as always, though from an incomplete picture of Him. With Muslims it’s a less clear-cut situation, because Islam arose after Christianity and its teachings are cobbled-together “corrections” of Jewish and Christian stories. Still, the stories and names are recognizable enough that we have a starting point for talking to Muslims. Their understanding of God is highly distorted, but it’s a distorted understanding of the God who appeared to Abraham and who sent Jesus, not of some other imaginary deity.

Though it has often been misunderstood and used to promote nonsense, I honestly believe that the perspective on other religions taken by Vatican II and the Catechism (which, you’ll note, is always right alongside an affirmation that salvation is only through Christ and His Church) is meant to tell us, not that followers of other religions are OK where they are and are saved without Jesus, but that we have commonalities with them that can be used in dialogue, with the ultimate goal of leading them to the whole Truth.

Focusing on our differences and calling people heretics and infidels, even when strictly true, has not worked to bring divergent groups back into the Christian and Catholic fold. Starting from what we have in common – a great deal of structure and Tradition with Orthodox, Jesus and the Scriptures with Protestants, the Abrahamic God with Jews and Muslims, and so forth – and talking through the differences seems likely to be a more productive approach. In the past few years, a couple of the oldest schisms in Christendom, even further back than the East/West split, have begun to heal because Catholics and members of groups like the Assyrian Church of the East, instead of simply denouncing each other as evil, have entered into dialogue about the differences that caused the split. Though we are not yet fully reunited, we have come to understand, remarkably enough, that both sides were actually trying to defend the same Truth, but each thought that the other’s way of putting that Truth into words was inadequate. Imagine that – a division that has existed for three-fourths of Christian history, far more entrenched than even the Catholic/Orthodox and Catholic/Protestant divisions, and it turns out after talking about it that we were just trying to outdo each other in saying the same thing!

Now, obviously it’s not going to be that easy with a non-Christian faith like Islam, but starting from similarities seems like a good strategy. Do we take what the Catechism says as an assurance that Muslims are saved and stop talking to them about Jesus? Of course not! But maybe, instead of calling their beliefs a satanic counterfeit, we start from what they did get right about God and Jesus and teach the rest.

If Paul was able to take pagan Greeks’ paranoid fear of ignoring any god they might not have heard of and turn that into “You already worship my God, though you do not know Him, but now I will make Him known to you,” surely we are authorized to take the same approach. It’s right there in Scripture!

Usagi
 
“Both [Christianity and Islam] inherited from Judaism a belief in one God who created the world and cares about the behavior and beliefs of human beings.”
religionfacts.com/christianity/charts/christianity_islam.htm

I found this website while looking for additional information regarding the major holidays celebrated by Muslims.
Eid Mubarak, the general greeting during holidays means “May God make it a blessed feast.”

Al Hira, scheduled for December 7th this year is the Islamic New Year.
Ashoora, which follows shortly afterward, was originally patterned on Yom Kippur as a day of atonement and fasting. This is how Ashoora is seen by Sunnis
Shiites, on the other hand, use Ashoora to commemorate the death of Hussein, Mohamed’s grandson. It is at the heart of the split between Sunni and Shiite.

This website is definitely worth checking out. It has a chart that compares Christian and Islamic beliefs.
Again, I do live and work in a Muslim country, going home annually during the summer. The most common expression used is “En Shallah” which means “God willing.”

The greetings used daily are
Salaam Alaykum=May God’s Peace be upon you and may He protect you.
The response is Alaykum Salaam (and upon you be peace).
Good-bye is Ma salaam (May you be accompanied in safety).

Usagi–a well thought out response. I agree.
 
Hi again Nooj,

I would also like to the respond to the quote from Pope Gregory VII that you put above in another post. As you mentioned, this was in a letter from the pope to a prince. It was also just a few years before the Crusades, interestingly.

What I would like to point out is that a simple letter from a pope to another is certainly not an infallible statement. I’m guessing that you are not presenting the letter as some kind of infallible statement (your religion says “none”, so you apparently haven’t accepted papal infallibility), but I just wanted to reiterate this. There are other statements from popes in very public and authoritative capacities from two councils which were accepted by the Magisterium and approved by popes. Here are a couple:

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312:
“It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (the followers of Islam, also called Muslims) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands.

Not too much later, at another council:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, Session 19, Sept. 7, 1434:
“Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”

You may already know this, but the quote you posted is also in a statement of the US Conference of Bishops, a long statement by John Borelli. It is disheartening that instead of quoting Magisterial statements issued in official capacities during two Councils, the author of that statement chose to use a salutary letter from a pope to a prince. Incidentally, so did John Paul II, which is another place this letter surfaced before John Borelli quoted it, and he explains this is his own statement. Unfortunately, it appears that some people are more interested in not “hurting other people’s feelings” that defending our Lord and trying to bring to Him as many of his beloved little sheep as possible before it is too late. Please, everyone, pray for the conversion of each and every Muslim.
Your quotes only say that Muslims are not Catholics. Well that’s obvious. But it doesn’t say that they don’t worship God.
 
When was the last time you saw a Muslim reverently take the cup of blessing to their lips and drink the Precious Blood?

When was the last time you saw a Catholic perform ritual ablutions, pull out their prayer rug, and ritualistically pray to Allah five times each day?
Never to both questions. What is the relevance of this to the to my position that God is unchanging?
The form of worship does change the object of worship.
How?

The Church teaches that God is unchanging and unchangeable.
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CCC:
202 Jesus himself affirms that God is “the one Lord” whom you must love “with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength”.6 At the same time Jesus gives us to understand that he himself is “the Lord”.7 To confess that Jesus is Lord is distinctive of Christian faith. This is not contrary to belief in the One God. Nor does believing in the Holy Spirit as “Lord and giver of life” introduce any division into the One God:
We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple.8
6 Mk 12:29-30
7 Cf. Mk 12:35-37.
8 Lateran Council IV: DS 800.
The problem here is the assumption that Muslims worship the God of Abraham. They do not. Jesus Christ is the God of Abraham. Allah is the god of Muslims.
Its not an assumption, its a fact. See CC teaching.
Thank you, Keri007. It’s heartening to see a Catholic defend the truth. What Vatican II has done is to create a New Age-type religion. Vatican II teaching has, like a frog in a pot of water on the stove, slowly turned up the temperature until it has cooked the frog without the frog being aware of it. The present-day Catholic Church has become a new religion without most Catholics being aware of it.
It appears that your understanding of Vatican II is as lacking as that of the CCC.
 
OK, all of you Vatican II Catholics, since you maintain that Muslims and Catholics worship the same God, try something different this week: Instead of fulfilling your Sunday mass obligation at your Catholic parish, head to the local Muslim mosque this Friday and participate with all your heart in the worship there. You might as well, since there’s no difference in the God/god you’re worshipping.😦
 
OK, all of you Vatican II Catholics, since you maintain that Muslims and Catholics worship the same God, try something different this week: Instead of fulfilling your Sunday mass obligation at your Catholic parish, head to the local Muslim mosque this Friday and participate with all your heart in the worship there. You might as well, since there’s no difference in the God/god you’re worshipping.😦
Why would encourage others to commit a mortal sin? 😦
2 It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. (Luke (NAB) 17)
By the way, what is a “Vatican II Catholic”?
 
Re #31 Usagi
Pope Benedict XVI defined dialogue as “communication across differences.” You echoed what he said about beginning with what we have in common.
I also remember watching a Fulton Sheen show in which he said much the same thing. He was talking about people who try to evangelize by starting with the Bible. People who adhere to other religions have their own sacred books. We need to know what they believe. What orator goes into a debate without knowing his opponent’s position?
Accepting shared values in no way means accepting those beliefs which we do not share.
It is our lives that people read before they hear the words that we use.
Muslims, Jews, and Christians share a belief in the same God, the God of Abraham.
It is only Christians who accept the divinity of Jesus Christ; his redemptive death and resurrection. It is this belief that sets us apart.

Re #20. David.
The form our worship takes does not change the object of our worship.
I like the definition of worship as “putting ourselves in the service of” God.
Islam defines itself as “submission to God.” We are called to surrender our lives completely to God. This is a value that we can share. Prayer is “lifting our hearts and minds to God.” It is communication with God. In its purest form, it is we who are changed by prayer. Prayer does not change God. God is the potter, we are the clay that He shapes and forms into what He would have us be. The Muslim may pull out his/her prayer rug 5X a day. A Catholic monk/nun may gather together in community several times a day to pray the LOTH. Laypersons, likewise, may join in this prayer. A Muslim may finger his/her beads while Catholics meditate on the Life of Christ while praying the rosary. To the untrained eye, signing ourselves may look ritualistic. Our prayer life becomes a part of who we are.
But it is the Eucharist that is “the source and summit of our faith,” that defines us as Catholic and binds us to Christ (CCC1391).

CCC1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the paschal mystery. Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.
 
OK, all of you Vatican II Catholics, since you maintain that Muslims and Catholics worship the same God, try something different this week: Instead of fulfilling your Sunday mass obligation at your Catholic parish, head to the local Muslim mosque this Friday and participate with all your heart in the worship there. You might as well, since there’s no difference in the God/god you’re worshipping.😦
Why aren’t you getting this? You guys are worshipping the same God, but Catholics believe that only their way of worshipping is the correct one.
 
Why would encourage others to commit a mortal sin? 😦

By the way, what is a “Vatican II Catholic”?
Why would it be a mortal sin? After all, since the forms of worship do not matter, and you say Muslims and Catholics both worship the same god/God, then how could it be a mortal sin? It must be pleasing to God the Father! :eek: (Or it must be pleasing to Allah–I’m confused now…) 😉

So let me get this straight: Do Muslims and Catholics both worship “Allah,” and therefore God the Father and Allah are one and the same? (Remember, St. John says that if someone does not acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God, that person does not have the Father.) Hmmm…I wonder…do Muslims have the Father? 😉 You might want to ask a Muslim who has converted to Christianity whether they now worship the same deity. 😦

Since you asked: Vatican II Catholicism is a wonderful and marvelously delightful new form of Catholicism that emerged in the 1960s and which has the superficial appearance of being Catholic but which actually is a bizarre distortion of Traditional Catholicism, a syncretistic amalgamation that incorporates Protestant, Jewish, and New Age elements. It overturns many previous papal pronouncements.

A Vatican II Catholic is thus a person who religiously reads the CCC and sees nothing un-Catholic about it. A Vatican II Catholic is a person who observes JPII’s shenanigans at Assisi and nods approvingly. :eek: A Vatican II Catholic thinks Marty Haugen folk tunes are on the same level as Palestrina and should be regular fare in the liturgy. 😃 (Just kidding: I know you’d all prefer Palestrina! Or maybe Bach–oh, but he was a Lutheran. Nix that idea.) 🙂
 
Why would it be a mortal sin? After all, since the forms of worship do not matter, and you say Muslims and Catholics both worship the same god/God, then how could it be a mortal sin? It must be pleasing to God the Father! :eek: (Or it must be pleasing to Allah–I’m confused now…) 😉
Where did I say that the form of worship didn’t matter. I said the form of worship doesn’t changed God. Pretty big difference don’t you think?
So let me get this straight: Do Muslims and Catholics both worship “Allah,” and therefore God the Father and Allah are one and the same? (Remember, St. John says that if someone does not acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God, that person does not have the Father.) Hmmm…I wonder…do Muslims have the Father? 😉 You might want to ask a Muslim who has converted to Christianity whether they now worship the same deity. 😦
Are “God” and “Allah” accurate translations/transliterations of YHWH? I say yes, since both refer to the God of Abraham. Abraham had one God, not two. Does this make any sense?
Since you asked: Vatican II Catholicism is a wonderful and marvelously delightful new form of Catholicism that emerged in the 1960s and which has the superficial appearance of being Catholic but which actually is a bizarre distortion of Traditional Catholicism, a syncretistic amalgamation that incorporates Protestant, Jewish, and New Age elements. It overturns many previous papal pronouncements.

A Vatican II Catholic is thus a person who religiously reads the CCC and sees nothing un-Catholic about it. A Vatican II Catholic is a person who observes JPII’s shenanigans at Assisi and nods approvingly. :eek: A Vatican II Catholic thinks Marty Haugen folk tunes are on the same level as Palestrina and should be regular fare in the liturgy. 😃 (Just kidding: I know you’d all prefer Palestrina! Or maybe Bach–oh, but he was a Lutheran. Nix that idea.) 🙂
It does appear that you have a big chip on your shoulder that doesn’t seem to have any basis in fact. All I see above is bunch of false claims. If you want to pursue any of them futher, take them to another thread as they are off topic here.
 
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