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TMC
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This is actually very close to the Catholic teaching, except that the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is also possible for those that do not believe in the correct details.
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jakasaki
Guest
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Link for the particular Tafsir you are using can be found where?
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jakasaki
Guest
The word used is “O kafirs” and not “O mushriks”; therefore, the addressees are not only the mushriks but all those people who do not acknowledge Muhammad (upon whom be Allah’s peace and blessings) as Allah’s Messenger and the teachings and guidance brought by him as the teaching and guidance given by Allah Himself, whether they be Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians or the disbelievers, polytheists and pagans of the entire world. There is no reason why this address be restricted to the pagans of Quraish or of Arabia only.
searchtruth.com/tafsir/tafsir.php?chapter=109
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oldcatholicguy
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From the same- “Many scholars from among the commentators have expressed the opinion that in this Surah the address of “O disbelievers” applied only to a few persons of Quraish, who were visiting the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) with proposals of compromise regarding religion and about whom Allah had informed His Messenger than they would not believe. They have formed this opinion for two reasons. First, that it is followed by La a
budu ma to budun: “I do not worship him or those whom you worship” . They say that this does not apply to the Jews and Christians, for they worship Allah. Second, that this is also followed by: wa la antum abiduna ma abud “Nor are you worshipers of Him Whom I worship”. Their reasoning is that this statement does not apply to the people who at the revelation of this Surah were disbelievers but later believed.”So, apparently it is not as cut and dry as one would wish to believe. If it were, the author Abdul Ala Maududi) wouldn’t have needed to present a counter argument to the above (counter argument can also be found in the link).
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jakasaki
Guest
So be it!
The tafsir still does include:
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If these Islamic scholars agree/disagree/add/change/delete/modify does not matter to me.
You asked for the tafsir and I presented it to your from an Islamic site.
The tafsir still does include:
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If these Islamic scholars agree/disagree/add/change/delete/modify does not matter to me.
You asked for the tafsir and I presented it to your from an Islamic site.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Well your above highlights your ignorance of Islamic theology and how it is formed. To put it into a context you might understand, you’re basically saying that since you found one Baptist preacher who taught X, X applies to not only to all forms of the Baptist faith, but to every form of Christianity.
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AprilFoolish
Guest
How does anyone know they worship the same God, how would one go about showing evidence for that?I can’t speak for Muslims, but I’ve lived among Muslims all my life. Not once has any told me (after Ive made acquaintance) that I worship another God.
MJ
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Cube2
Guest
Not absolutely.
Mohammed, the founder of Islam was born in 570AD. He was an orphan; his father died 6 months before he was born, while his mother died when he was 6 years old. He was raised by his maternal uncle who was a Christian. His father was called Abd-Allah while his mother was called Amina.
By then, the Arabs and Sabeans of Arabia worshiped 366 idols, of which the most superior one was of the moon-god called Sin in Sabean, or El-Illah in Arabic.
Mohamed’s father Abd-allah implies that Allah was pre-Islam. The question is who was Allah then? Allah was not the same as the God of Abraham, the forefather of the Arabs.
Mohamed preached monotheism and removed all the 365 idols leaving only the superior one whose symbol was a crescent.
If you’d read a Koran, you’d understand the whole scenario. Its made up of excepts from the bible and a call to worship one God. So, he used the bible to rally people to monotheism of Allah. However the chapters are not arranged chronologically thus making it more difficult to follow.
There are 3 stages in the revelations of Mohamed
- Initially while at Mecca with the first wife Khadija
- While at Medina and after the death of his first wife Khadija
- After the heroic return to Mecca and forming a religio-political government
The 2nd revelations at Medina center on self, wives, acquiring wealth, and expanding influence.
The 3rd stage of revelations after conquering Mecca are about governance, laws and succession.
When you learn all these, you make an informed conclusion.
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clem456
Guest
For starters, you look at what a person does in worship, what a person says, how you pray, what you say. Worship is …
This can be debated to the end of time but the Church characterizes Islam in a certain way and that is fine with me.
I dunno why people can’t simply accept what the Church says.I consider Muslims friends and for the most part people of good faith (just like Christians, for the most part), but the Church -does not- clam they worship the same God (which is after all the subject of the thread).
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
“Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a very model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the sane God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection.” -St. John Paul the GreatFor starters, you look at what a person does in worship, what a person says, how you pray, what you say. Worship is …
This can be debated to the end of time but the Church characterizes Islam in a certain way and that is fine with me.
I consider Muslims friends and for the most part people of good faith (just like Christians, for the most part), but the Church -does not- clam they worship the same God (which is after all the subject of the thread).
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1985/august/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19850819_giovani-stadio-casablanca_en.html
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Yago
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That is the Catholic position. But the question is about the Muslim position.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
And I was responding to a poster who claimed that it was not the Catholic position.
“I consider Muslims friends and for the most part people of good faith (just like Christians, for the most part), **but the Church -does not- clam they worship the same God **(which is after all the subject of the thread).”
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clem456
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And it doesn’t
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clem456
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The Church speaks with love to Muslims, appreciating similarities and differences. It’s not on me to put words in it’s mouth.
The JP2 quote above is a small part of the talk. He talks later about similarities and differences. It is nuanced. I won’t waste anymore time posting quotes from anything.
I’m sorry you are annoyed (amused?) not sure which.
The JP2 quote above is a small part of the talk. He talks later about similarities and differences. It is nuanced. I won’t waste anymore time posting quotes from anything.
I’m sorry you are annoyed (amused?) not sure which.
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TMC
Guest
So are you saying that the Church teaches that Muslims “hold the faith of Abraham” (CC 841), “believe in” the same God as Catholics (Pope JPII), and “adore” the same God as Catholics (CC 841), but still don’t “worship” the same God as Catholics? What do you base that on?
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clem456
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Prayers that no one is annoyed. And last post from me. :clapping:
I personally never doubted whether Muslims are wonderful God-fearing people or whether they believe in God, or do just what the Catechism says they do.
The only question I referred to is in the thread title. Do Muslims -worship- the one -true- God. In fact that’s not even the title of the thread, but the issue came up so…
Love of neighbor is a pretense without appreciating a person as a whole, similarities and differences. All people have human dignity and are our brothers and sisters, but all people are not homogenized. We are not all 'the same", by definition. And that’s part of what makes human beings human. It’s ok to recognize differences. In fact the homogenization of a people is a very necessary step to oppression. There cannot be an insane insistence that we all be the same, cause we are not, and we might as well get comfortable with each other so we can get on with life. The intolerant are very easily disappointed when their homogenized view of humanity is upset.
A well reasoned discussion by Tim Staples, pretty short, please read the whole thing and not one paragraph.
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do
Crossing The Threshold of Hope; JP2
I personally never doubted whether Muslims are wonderful God-fearing people or whether they believe in God, or do just what the Catechism says they do.
The only question I referred to is in the thread title. Do Muslims -worship- the one -true- God. In fact that’s not even the title of the thread, but the issue came up so…
Love of neighbor is a pretense without appreciating a person as a whole, similarities and differences. All people have human dignity and are our brothers and sisters, but all people are not homogenized. We are not all 'the same", by definition. And that’s part of what makes human beings human. It’s ok to recognize differences. In fact the homogenization of a people is a very necessary step to oppression. There cannot be an insane insistence that we all be the same, cause we are not, and we might as well get comfortable with each other so we can get on with life. The intolerant are very easily disappointed when their homogenized view of humanity is upset.
A well reasoned discussion by Tim Staples, pretty short, please read the whole thing and not one paragraph.
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do
Crossing The Threshold of Hope; JP2
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
From Mr. Staples’s article- “Thus, we Catholics have to be careful to distinguish between the fact that Muslims believe in the one true God “living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,” and the fact that they get it wrong—profoundly wrong—when it comes to both who God has revealed himself to be in the New Testament, and what he has taught his people.”
and- “St. John Paul first acknowledges the truth that Muslims get it right when they profess faith in one God. Then, and only then, does he point out they have it as wrong as wrong can be when it comes to what God has revealed to us in Scripture about who he is, and, I would add, what he asks of his people by way of his commandments.”
The Church’s teaching to the following questions are-
-Do Muslims worship the same God we do? Yes
-Do they do so in an erroneous manner? Yes
-Is their understanding of God incomplete/erroneous? Yes
-Does the fact that they worship and understand God in an incomplete/erroneous manner change the fact that they are worshipping God? No
You’re basically trying to argue that if a Muslim correctly identifies an apple based on a definition of “apple” that is partly true and partly erroneous that the object the Muslim is identifying really isn’t an apple.
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Archiesdaddy
Guest
No, they do not. Anyone who does not worship Our Lord Jesus Christ (latria) does not worship God, notwithstanding how some may try to wrap it up. Those who do not acknowledge the Divinity of Jesus Christ do not worship the God of Abraham. When all is said and done, that is the bottom line. ‘Allah’ was the name of one among 365 ‘gods’ formerly in the Kabbah, I believe. ‘Allah’ is the Moon God. Look at the pinnacle of a mosque and tell me what you see - you see the crescent moon. The idea that we are the same or similar is twaddle (pace Nostra Aetate) and simply is not the doctrine of the Church. To believe otherwise is to set at naught the Faith of Christ and all the leading protestants from Luther onward would call the suggestion ‘heresy’ and would probably have burned you for it - and rightly. That sort of phony ecumenistic rot is syncretism and indifferentism. If you believe it you are not a Christian, at all.
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Idaith
Guest
We worship the God of Abraham, Moses, Noah, David, Jacob, Jesus and Mohammed…
Do Christians / Catholics worship the God of these great prophets (out of the great many prophets that God sent) who were sent to guide humankind to the right path? If you do, then we worship the same, one and only God.
From my point of view, the God we worship is the same as the Father in Trinity, except that ‘Father’ would not be appropriate term for us to use as we believe God Almighty is One, ,He does not beget nor is He begotten.
Peace / Salam
Do Christians / Catholics worship the God of these great prophets (out of the great many prophets that God sent) who were sent to guide humankind to the right path? If you do, then we worship the same, one and only God.
From my point of view, the God we worship is the same as the Father in Trinity, except that ‘Father’ would not be appropriate term for us to use as we believe God Almighty is One, ,He does not beget nor is He begotten.
Peace / Salam
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