Muslims, how can this be proper?

[Sister_Amy]

The link does not attribute the teaching to Christianity. It is an Islamic teaching. So what is your problem? Muslims upholding peace? Muslims seeing humanity as one brotherhood? What’s wrong with that? Shouldn’t you see it as a good thing?

The attitude of that sheikh and many other 'ulema is consistent–based on Islamic sources. I don’t think you’re really in a position to refute the 'ulema… sorry.

Amy, your link is beautiful in the general sense …“Treat others the way that you wish to be treated.”…these are Jesus’ words…yet Jesus did not tell us to subdue others and make them pay in humiliation as dhimmi when teaching about “love”…the Bible does not call Muslims “unbelievers who will end up in hell” as the Quran says about Christians…Jesus did not curse Jews and Christians on the cross like Muhammad did before his death…Jesus ddid not expel Jews like Muhammad did to Jews and Christians…Jesus did not kill those who mocked him like Muhammad did…Jesus did not ask His disciples to conquer other lands with the sword in the name of love…and Muslims who have this attitude did not read Jesus’ words nor are they following His example but are following Muhammad…so the all-loving attitude of your link hardly corresponds with the above facts…though i wish reality were as such.

 

[R_not]

The link does not attribute the teaching to Christianity. It is an Islamic teaching. So what is your problem? Muslims upholding peace? Muslims seeing humanity as one brotherhood? What’s wrong with that? Shouldn’t you see it as a good thing?

The attitude of that sheikh and many other 'ulema is consistent–based on Islamic sources. I don’t think you’re really in a position to refute the 'ulema… sorry.

It is all words - and no actions behind it to your own.

In one sentence you espouse peace, in another sentence you show your true colors.

Actually, the consistency you espouse is not apparent either. I see nothing about the koran, islam, the deeds of the muslims throughout this world, as being consistent as to what you are trying to tell us through that website.

Too bad you guys don’t put as much energy into making those who you say are ‘misunderstanders’ of islam - your fellow muslims - see it all as you see it.

Anyway, here is some good news. It seems that our FBI is doing a good job of it when our military, and others, find muslims that are found abroad in terrorist situations - to be consistent in their misdeeds - here in the USA, and elsewhere - basically, not very nice people. Take note of the phrases ‘support network here in the USA’, etc. I would suspect that as time passes we will find more of the jihadists in our database. Too bad that all these guys are misunderstanding islam. Gee, there sure are a lot of them misunderstanding it! I wonder why?

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/05/AR2008070501831_2.html?hpid=topnews

Or is it that this video has more of the truth in it than not? Basically - telling outsiders one thing while saying another when thinking they are alone - take note that it is the clerics doing this. Are they ‘misunderstanding’ islam too?!

islameyat.com/dispatches_undercover_mosque.htm

 

[jedi]

Most of Africa has a problem due to not only communists, but also the muslims who are the ones slaughtering them. That has been going on for centuries too. Way back to the Barbary pirates (muslims on a jihad) and beyond. In fact, they would raid whole town in Europe and the UK and kidnap and enslave the people.

I guess you think that food and Bibles are equal to bullets. Yeah, right. Nice try.

Hello R not, thank you for your info. (frontpage magazine) is very detail and very correct. It is a complete system…
wake up western world…
Do you want to Ottoman repeat the history again…???

 

[Verisimilitude]

The link does not attribute the teaching to Christianity. It is an Islamic teaching. So what is your problem? Muslims upholding peace? Muslims seeing humanity as one brotherhood? What’s wrong with that? Shouldn’t you see it as a good thing?

The attitude of that sheikh and many other 'ulema is consistent–based on Islamic sources. I don’t think you’re really in a position to refute the 'ulema… sorry.

Amy, the ‘brotherhood’ and ‘love’ you and that link speaks about is either naive or dishonest. The teaching is Christs but comes from the Torah, and the true Islamic teaching is found in the Quran which disputes your (and that links) claim to Islamic brotherhood to includ all humanity is conditional to all humanity being Muslim.

You can’t claim:

“Treat others the way that you wish to be treated.”

and

Then whoever transgresses the prohibition against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is with Al-Muttaqoon (the pious - see V.2:2) .
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #194)

Mohammed teaches revenge and what transgresses a Muslim is disbelief in Islam.

And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #191)

You also cant say:

1. Islam establishes the idea of absolute equality between all human beings and that they are descended from a common ancestor.

and

Say (O Muhammad SAW) to those who disbelieve: “You will be defeated and gathered together to Hell, and worst indeed is that place to rest.”
( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #12)

Verily! The worst of (moving) living creatures with Allah are the deaf and the dumb, those who understand not (i.e. the disbelievers).
( سورة الأنفال , Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #22)

Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allah are those who disbelieve, - so they shall not believe.
( سورة الأنفال , Al-Anfal, Chapter #8, Verse #55)

O Prophet (Muhammad SAW)! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell, - and worst indeed is that destination.
( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #73)

Then indeed We shall drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against the Most Beneficent (Allah).
( سورة مريم , Maryam, Chapter #19, Verse #69)

Or do you think that most of them hear or understand? They are only like cattle; nay, they are even farther astray from the Path. (i.e. even worst than cattle).
( سورة الفرقان , Al-Furqan, Chapter #25, Verse #44)

O Prophet (Muhammad SAW)! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be severe against them, their abode will be Hell, and worst indeed is that destination.
( سورة التحريم , At-Tahrim, Chapter #66, Verse #9)

Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikoon will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.
( سورة البينة , Al-Bayyina, Chapter #98, Verse #6)

Muslim compassion is for Muslims only. Your holy book calls me the worst of creatures.

Dr. Abdullah Bin Bayyah said:

Love is an essential value, since all people desire to be loved.

Love Islam style is not so comforting.

O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion (Islam), Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the Way of Allah, and never afraid of the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is AllSufficient for His creatures needs, AllKnower.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #54)

 

[caleb83]

Dates are very significant. After several centuries of muslims slaughtering non-muslims and the Crusades were called. And even then they did not fight all the time - as did the muslims.

As for examining it more thoroughly - you do that. Unfortunately, you look at it through a logic/mind that looks at no infidels as being innocent, as muslim aggression as being your right and and honor since muslims do it for allah, and if infidels fight back - they are the problem, not the muslims.

sorry, but your whole thesis would require me to take off my scalp, take a mixer on my brain for a good while and then review it with you. If you even read the first post I posted on this subject - it doesn’t even say all the Crusaders were the same. But, like I said - every single time anything islamic is talked about - it always reverts into this same thing. You want us to lie about history, to distort your prophet into something that he was not - meaning that he was peaceful - and say that the koran is some sort of an enlightened book directly from God.

Well, like I have repeated so often whenever you start - we just look at the koran, your history and even your behavior - and find that nothing about islam is peaceful. About 3% of the koran could be considered peaceful that is why we are able to show about 200-1 the number of surahs that are not peaceful. It is YOUR own koran, YOUR own prophet and the HISTORY of islam that doesn’t pan out as to what you are trying to convey.

And instead of acknowledging any of it we see the same exact thing. Eventually this thread will be shut down for the same reasons.

I was thinking that islam, mohammed and all of this shouldn’t be allowed to be discussed - but then I thought better of it. The more people are at least made aware of what is real vs da’wa - the better. they might argue with us and take your side on some things but unfortunately, the evidence abounds to counter all of what you say.

The first posts of this thread about deception that are sanctioned in the koran just points to your attempts to muddy the waters here too.

I would say that every country that muslims have migrated to the people have wanted to be open and peaceful. If you want to go back into history - look at how India first opened itself to muslims and then its first jihad in India brought India, its advanced civilization, its art and its people to its knees. And that wasn’t the end of it - there were more jihads after that (3 main jihads against India) and late last year a 4th one was proclaimed against them.

The same thing happened in the land of the Buddhist monks. And now Buddhist monks ride bicycles and are killed by muslims in their own lands. School girls are beheaded, raped, kidnapped and forced to marry muslim males and convert to never see their families again. It is also happening in India, Africa, and Europe. And you worry about the Crusades and your version of it.

I know, I know - this will also be ignored by you and you will obsess about infidels finally fighting back after years/decades/centuries of slaughter and you think they are the problem.

Some little known facts. Columbus went to find a new trade route to India because going through muslim lands was just becoming too dangerous. Oops, that religion of peace at it back then. The Barbary pirates were muslims on a jihad. Thomas Jefferson figured it out and that is why we didn’t lose to many to them. Vlad Dracula was fighting muslims and one of the things he found out was that impaling them kept new hordes from attacking his people. He is still a hero in his land to this day.

This is to R_not. I haven’t followed the rest of the thread. I thought this thread was going to be about the morality of lying, and I agree the whole muslim contraversy does throw in so much stuff, I mean I don’t even know how I got in talking about the Crusades and everything else.

But in case your reply, the one that followed mine, quoted above, is directed at me, I am not Muslim.

I am not aware of any credible proof of the evil of Muhammad, but am aware of such hatred that flows from the ‘judge them by their fruits’ fallacy that people are willing to believe anything. And so I do not already know how to interpret the Koran: you say peaceful and not peaceful verses? Christianity does not seem to mandate any politics so it is free from the possibility of being non-peaceful and sanctioning violence. But what about peaceful and nonpeaceful state constitutions, civil laws and legal codes?

One ALREADY knows how evil Mohammad is right? You know that unbeliever is one who is not a Muslim, so anything the Koran says about nonbelievers can be taken violently. Of course one cannot compare the Koran to the Old Testament Bible—no! We know what is all for: evil, and of course we know that Jihad means holy war and that Islam calls for forced conversions. If ever a Christian did the same thing, it does not follow that their evil religion made them do it, or that the religion should be interpreted to see that it calls for such acts.

In the past, each of these concepts have been held by Christians who were mistaken or simply hostile, as in Middle Ages propaganda, so if the same things are said again they are liable to be taken critically.

My logic/mind characterizes Muhammad as does Karen Armstrong. That is basically where I am coming from.

As for the deception, I would like to know what you guys think of what I said about that. Or if there is a thread here properly concerning Catholic morality in regards to lying. (and not the simple ‘it is not allowed’ that I read earlier)

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

that article about shared brotherhood is very misleading. If we all get all comfy and cozy and think that islam has our best interest at heart and is not a threat - we will be in for a lot of trouble because the end product is the same for us. that article is da’wa at its finest.

No muslim country that I know of gives equal ‘brotherhood’ to any non-muslim. Why don’t you guys put your energy into changing the way muslims think and do things - then I would be more inclined to believe you if there was more of that being done within your own.

Until then - I don’t believe a word of it. It is just more da’wa - or deception.

I share your sentiments here. Hope is always an option. What I learned here, is that Islam has military tactics based in their Quran. A Muslim has the right to decieve what he considers an enemy, a military tactic used in religious practice. The problem is who determines who the enemy of Islam is? Peace is spoken by moderate Muslims, where as the extreme Muslim excercises the Quran through military means to justify what it does in the name of Islam. The interpretation of the Quran and Muslim leadership of the day determines what action Islam takes, be it peaceful, deception, or by military force. In all these options to Islam, can change in a moment of changing of the guard. What still puzzles me about Islam, is those who are born in the Islamic systems, are never given a choice to decide if they want to remain Muslim, or excercise their freedom not to be Muslim, without some reprocussions to their life or family.

Peace be with you

 

[R_not]

I share your sentiments here. Hope is always an option. What I learned here, is that Islam has military tactics based in their Quran. A Muslim has the right to decieve what he considers an enemy, a military tactic used in religious practice. The problem is who determines who the enemy of Islam is? Peace is spoken by moderate Muslims, where as the extreme Muslim excercises the Quran through military means to justify what it does in the name of Islam. The interpretation of the Quran and Muslim leadership of the day determines what action Islam takes, be it peaceful, deception, or by military force. In all these options to Islam, can change in a moment of changing of the guard. What still puzzles me about Islam, is those who are born in the Islamic systems, are never given a choice to decide if they want to remain Muslim, or excercise their freedom not to be Muslim, without some reprocussions to their life or family.

Peace be with you

Hope is indeed an option - I am sure that millions hoped for a lot before they either died, or ended out converting, or lived a life of subjugation - and many of those ended out converting or fleeing in order to escape the problems of being subjugated. Hoping for help before their lands ended out being muslim and their children being condemned to islam ever after.

There are other tactics being used other than military tactics. Deception is one such tactic that is fully sanctioned in the koran. Immigration; uncontrolled birth rates; da’wa; infiltration; demands along with threats, intimidation and criminal thuggary are others. Right now a stealth jihad is going on in our lands where they know they cannot win militarily against us. They bring and practice their sharia laws in our lands ‘flipping’ their noses at our laws. It is further along in Europe, and it is helped along by the left/secularists in Europe - and in the USA, Canada and Australia.

Some good books to read about this are ‘A Never Ending War’, “Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs” (I just ordered this book), and some other books telling how the jihad is further along in Euroope are ‘Eurabia’, ‘While Europe Slept’, and ‘Menace in Europe’.

Frontpagemag.com has some articles on this subject. Here is one on the MSA - the muslim student association that is allowed to continue to operate on our colleges:
frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4066F0B8-C173-4A7C-B43C-99988EC9F154

Another word used quite often is ‘creeping sharia’. Either way, whether it be by a stealth jihad, or the violent jihad, the end game is the same for us infidels - death, conversion or subjugation (dhimmitude).

 

[inJESUS]

The link does not attribute the teaching to Christianity. It is an Islamic teaching.

sure since it is talking about Islam. But Jesus said the same words prior to Muhammad, and showed them in His mission and in the missions of His apostles…the same cannot be said about Muhammad and his followers both in teachings and behaviors…so one cannot quote a sentence and build a whole argument on it while disregarding that the universal brotherhood and love is not reflected in the Quran and sunnah that call non-Muslims kuffar going to hell , killing apostates, conquering lands, subduing non-Muslims and humiliating them in the name of jizya ecc…in an ideology where someone is subdued with humiliation for not converting , there is no room for “the” love and brotherhood your link talks about but for a “love-treaty” conditioned by Muslim rules…you simply cannot compare Jesus to Muhammad when it come to universal peace/love, nor Jesus’ apostles’ to Muhammad’s companions.

So what is your problem? Muslims upholding peace? Muslims seeing humanity as one brotherhood? What’s wrong with that? Shouldn’t you see it as a good thing?

 

[Sister_Amy]

sure since it is talking about Islam. But Jesus said the same words prior to Muhammad, and showed them in His mission and in the missions of His apostles…the same cannot be said about Muhammad and his followers both in teachings and behaviors…so one cannot quote a sentence and build a whole argument on it while disregarding that the universal brotherhood and love is not reflected in the Quran and sunnah that call non-Muslims kuffar going to hell , killing apostates, conquering lands, subduing non-Muslims and humiliating them in the name of jizya ecc…in an ideology where someone is subdued with humiliation for not converting , there is no room for “the” love and brotherhood your link talks about but for a “love-treaty” conditioned by Muslim rules…you simply cannot compare Jesus to Muhammad when it come to universal peace/love, nor Jesus’ apostles’ to Muhammad’s companions.

 

[inJESUS]

What are you replying to Amy?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I was replying to you–your first paragraph in particular.

 

[inJESUS]

I was replying to you–your first paragraph in particular.

sorry i still do not see what your verses have to do with what i said. If you can quote them how they respond to what i said i\ll appreciate it …thx.

 

[rpp]

Can we please bring this thread back to the topic of what Islam teaches about lying to non-Moslems.

 

[R_not]

Can we please bring this thread back to the topic of what Islam teaches about lying to non-Moslems.

They won’t respond to that. (it is usual)

Here is a video - that I will once again post - and show how imams, clerics, lie to those who are questioning their deeds and words. It shows a complete 180 degrees to what they are telling the non-muslims vs what they are telling their muslims.

Here is what is going on in the UK muslims:
islameyat.com/dispatches_undercover_mosque.htm

I can tell you already that they won’t respond because they won’t #1. watch it, #2. admit that they are deceiving us via da’wa or that the koran sanctions it in dar al harb. They won’t even admit that islam has divided the world into two realms - dar al harb (the realm of war) and dar al islam (the realm of lands under sharia law). (the other fascism that does that is communism with the ‘either you are for us or against us’ mentality)

 

[Sister_Amy]

inJESUS:

Jesus said the same words prior to Muhammad, and showed them in His mission and in the missions of His apostles…the same cannot be said about Muhammad and his followers both in teachings and behaviors…so one cannot quote a sentence and build a whole argument on it while disregarding that the universal brotherhood and love is not reflected in the Quran and sunnah

This is what I was replying to–“Jesus said the same words…”–with the Qur’an.

To the second part of this quote, in fact, the only reason that the sheikh could make the argument is that he is supported by the Qur’an and Sunnah, which proves universal brotherhood.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Can we please bring this thread back to the topic of what Islam teaches about lying to non-Moslems.

Imaan (faith) and lying cannot exist in the same heart at the same time. A liar cannot be among the believers.

 

[R_not]

Imaan (faith) and lying cannot exist in the same heart at the same time. A liar cannot be among the believers.

Once again we are getting a lala version of islam. A liar can indeed be among the believers.

islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml

youtube video about lying in islam
youtube.com/watch?v=AMc3XMB6ZZg

And this one muslims like to blame the ‘other guy’ or the other sect that they don’t belong to - taqiyya/kithman

jihadwatch.org/archives/017491.php
jihadwatch.org/archives/015816.php
jihadwatch.org/archives/015800.php

Games muslims play: thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Games-Muslims-Play.htm

answering-islam.org/Index/L/lying.html

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hope is indeed an option - I am sure that millions hoped for a lot before they either died, or ended out converting, or lived a life of subjugation - and many of those ended out converting or fleeing in order to escape the problems of being subjugated. Hoping for help before their lands ended out being muslim and their children being condemned to islam ever after.

There are other tactics being used other than military tactics. Deception is one such tactic that is fully sanctioned in the koran. Immigration; uncontrolled birth rates; da’wa; infiltration; demands along with threats, intimidation and criminal thuggary are others. Right now a stealth jihad is going on in our lands where they know they cannot win militarily against us. They bring and practice their sharia laws in our lands ‘flipping’ their noses at our laws. It is further along in Europe, and it is helped along by the left/secularists in Europe - and in the USA, Canada and Australia.

Some good books to read about this are ‘A Never Ending War’, “Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs” (I just ordered this book), and some other books telling how the jihad is further along in Euroope are ‘Eurabia’, ‘While Europe Slept’, and ‘Menace in Europe’.

Frontpagemag.com has some articles on this subject. Here is one on the MSA - the muslim student association that is allowed to continue to operate on our colleges:
frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4066F0B8-C173-4A7C-B43C-99988EC9F154

Another word used quite often is ‘creeping sharia’. Either way, whether it be by a stealth jihad, or the violent jihad, the end game is the same for us infidels - death, conversion or subjugation (dhimmitude).

Ok R-not, When one comes to the reality of Islam and its deceptions to conquer and destroy all other outside of Islam. What would be your solution to such a destructive ideology? once all of humanity is forewarned of the consequences of Islam coming to your city. Do you offer a peaceful solution, or a counter to the deception of Islam? Or are you one calling in the wilderness?

Peace

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Imaan (faith) and lying cannot exist in the same heart at the same time. A liar cannot be among the believers.

Sister Amy; of course a liar cannot be among believers, but can a LIAR be among unbelievers is the question?

Tell me Amy, can you offer a solution for the threats of Islam, that threaten to kill all those outside of Islam, and have already done so. What solution do you offer for those innocent victims from Islam radicals who force them to convert or be killed?

praying for peace

 

[planten]

Can we please bring this thread back to the topic of what Islam teaches about lying to non-Moslems.

o.k rpp, what is bothering you? How do you feel that Muslims are allowed to lie to non-Muslims. There have been 111 posts. I am sure the matter must have been replied but you did not notice it.

There is no such thing as lying in Islam. It is trictly forbidden. Even before a tyrant king, it is necessary that the Muslims should speak the truth. Please go back and read the previous posts. You may find the necessay arguments there.
Otherwise bring your claim if it is different from what has already been posted and replied.