Muslims: How could the Trinity NOT work?!

[Khalfan]

Khal,… your moslem materialism is right on target. You’ve successfully debunked all of Christianity, in terms of the limited mindset of islam.

Well done.

It would be nice, of course, if you’d try to understand the mindset of Christianity when you use the words and concepts of Christianity to “debunk” Christianity.

Since you hae no interest in doing that, everything you say is very humorously irrelevant, as you and your “targets” aren’t speaking the same language…!

Best to you, you vaccuously verbacious one, you…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

Thanks for reading. And may your God bless you and me to know the truth.

 

[Keikiolu]

Thanks for reading. And may your God bless you and me to know the truth.

He’s one for two on that.

And He’s not my God,… He’s our God, my fellow human being.

…islam’s “god” is another question altogether.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Khalfan]

He’s one for two on that.

And He’s not my God,… He’s our God, my fellow human being.

…islam’s “god” is another question altogether.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

If I say ‘My God’, you would have said, I don’t believe in your God.

If I say ‘Our God’, You would have said, my God is not a God for you.

So I said ‘Your God’, because I know, you believe in God, eventhough we differ in the nature of God.

 

[dolphinlove]

His God, my God, your God, the man down the streets God…

I dont think God likes being pigeon holed…

Lets just worship in our own way and pray that muslims will eventually learn the truth

 

[angelusm]

There is only one Muslim perspective of the ‘Trinity’ i.e. that which is written in the Qur’an itself:

004.171
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

005.072-73
They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

For 6 centuries people believd in Trinity. Then Mahammed came
and said there was no Trinity. Why Koran is so different from the Bible in this issue? There were many Christian heresies, most of them were condemned and vanished. Islam is one of thoses heresies, but, unlike others, it managed to survive and spread - because of violence, terror, wars and persecuting other religions. Luckily 6 millions muslims in Africa become christians every year. It’s because they see plenty of healings (you won’t see them in islam), they want to hear about God’s love and want to be free from a terroristic religion full of errors. I feel sorry for muslims because you believe in lies and it won’t lead you to heaven.

 

[Khalfan]

For 6 centuries people believd in Trinity. Then Mahammed came
and said there was no Trinity. Why Koran is so different from the Bible in this issue? There were many Christian heresies, most of them were condemned and vanished. Islam is one of thoses heresies, but, unlike others, it managed to survive and spread - because of violence, terror, wars and persecuting other religions. Luckily 6 millions muslims in Africa become christians every year. It’s because they see plenty of healings (you won’t see them in islam), they want to hear about God’s love and want to be free from a terroristic religion full of errors. I feel sorry for muslims because you believe in lies and it won’t lead you to heaven.

If it is healing, that makes you believe in it, Pentacost Christians do the same healings you catholics do. All other sects too do it.

Can you tell me, why trinity was an alien concept for jews lived before Jesus (pbuh)?

 

[inJESUS]

who on earth said a man contained God? He is God before taking a human body. He incarnated into virgin Mary. You still did not understand this after thousands of posts?

God incarnated into virgin mary. God lived in a human body. Same you say, human body cannot contain God. isn’t that self contradicting? it is.

no i misundersttod what yu said. You gave the implication that a human became God. I dont know how a virgin can be pregant without sexual union so i surely dont know how can Jesus be both divine and human but since God can do it, so be it and i thank Him. God can manifest Himself in any form He likes while being God. His business, His ways, not mine.

I said, Jesus (pbuh) said he cannot do anything his own

Quote:
because the Father is the source? because the Father sends His Word and not the other way round? how many times should i repeat this very simple idea?

Can Jesus (pbuh) be omnipotent for anything he did, since he was unable to do anything without the power given by Father/God? Can omnipotent be dependend of another omnipotent? Can omnipresent be dependend of another omnipresent? Dependency is a disqualification for God. So Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t God, since he was dependent. I know you will refute, but that won’t make him independent.

didnt i show that Jesus is omnipotent and omnipresent? then how can He be both if He is dependant? good question but what does dependant mean, and on whom is He dependant?

The Word of Father is sent by the Father. In THIS sense it is dependant, not that it is a creature dependant on God.

Does Allah send the Quran or Quran sends Allah? obviously Allah send the Quran. In other words, no Allah, no Quran. Hence the Quran depends on Allah. Go ahead and say that since the Word of Allah depends on Allah, it is not longer divine, neither eternal, nor uncreated, nor Allah;s attribute.

We already spoke of the accuracy of his speach. Jesus (pbuh) might have said something like, but to come to any close is subject to reconsideration. We all believe, any man can do even greater things, if God wills to give the power. But still God is God, and the one got the power, cannot be God.

no considerations. In any language of the world and no matter how you put it, the meaning can only be this :

Jesus gives peace the entire world cannot give.
Jesus gives wisdom
Jesus gives knowledge
Jesus gives rest
Jesus gives eternal life
Jesus is with us forever
Jesus has all authority not only on earth but in heaven.

to all people,in all times, on all our planet.

No previous prophets dared to even think of these things. No previous prophet dared utter anything that even resembles what Jesus said of Himself. You dont know more than Jesus about His audiance. His audiance knew very well that these cannot be uttered by a human whatsover. Jesus knew more than you what it means to utter such words. That is precisely why the talmud says he was a blasphemer who thought himself as God.

Supposedly an imam said to a muslim audiance: i am the rahman the raheem. I give you wisdom and knowledge. I give you rest and peace the world cannot give.I give you life. Am with you always. If people ask yu, don’t think of what to say, i will give you wisdom and knowledge.

go ahead and claim that the imam is not saying he is allah. Go ahead and say that the imam does not know how Muslims will understand his words.

Buddy, there are words that the greatest of prophets cannot utter, and Jews know this very well, and Jesus knows this very well, whether you accept it or not.

 

[inJESUS]

Gospel of Barnabas is not a Islamic book.

whoever wrote it, it was written after Muhammad. The apocrypha i am asking yu to show and which denies Jesus’ crucifixion must be written before Muhammad, not after. So far i found none and am waiting for you to find one.

The people that made Bible itself full of ‘inspired’ fabricated stories, will never accepts such concepts as Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t on the cross.

you don’t know about the stories in the gospels because you don’t have them in the Quran. What you have are the fabricated stories written in the 4th century by God knows who and which were never quoted in our tradition. The stories found in the gospels were quoted by the disciples’ disciples and their disciples after them. If you question these people, i repeat, we dust off our sandals. Jesus sent them and told them there are people who will not accept their testimony so they must dust off their sandals.We do believe in them because we simply do not reject the disciples. You want to believe that Jesus spoke in the cradle and breathed life into birds, yu are free, but know “these” are the fabricated ficticious stories written by unknown people who were neither disciples not pupils nor church fathers nor were quoted by any of them. So historically speaking, you have no basis, as usual. What you have is faith in what Muhammad told you is the literal word of Allah when history is before your own eyes which shows these are the words of men that knew neither Jesus, nor the apostles, nor their disciples and which wrote their fictions centuries after the church fathers already quoted the true teachings before any NT compilation.

Whether or not it was Judas on the cross, it matches with what Quran said, it wasn’t Jesus (pbuh) on the cross.

the Quran does not say it wasn’t Jesus. I repeat, these same exact words are found in the gnostic apocrypha of Peter talking about Jesus’ crucifixion, not someone else you might not want to confess this to yourself, but to us it is clear.

Second, it IS important. If it is not Jesus, it means it was someone else. Whoever you think it was, why did your Allah kill someone else instead of Jesus and made people believe it was Jesus? don’t you object to the idea of someone being killed instead of someone else? i want theological reasons. I expect logical answers.

Even if there wasn’t any written manuscripts available, (I already said, how possibly it can be available since all contradicting scriptures were burned) the one prayer of Jesus (pbuh) to be saved from the cross is enough for us to believe, he was saved.

heresies and apocrypha were either written down, mentioned and answered to by the church fathers,and in details or they are available for you to read. None of them denies the crucifixion . None.

As to the prayer, you still have to answer:
how do you know that none of the previous prophets that were killed prayed for their “salvation”?

and why doesn’t Allah answer the prayers of laymen subject to death?

and how did you understand, from Jesus’ words, that the Father “might” save him, if what Jesus said is that the will of the Father (crucifixion) is to happen, quoting previously the prophecies of the prophets and prophecizing it Himself? will the Father forget about all the prophecies by all the previous prophets because Jesus “as you think” asked it? will the Father make all previous prophets as liars? didn’t God say that when prophets prophecize, it happens?or didn’t Jesus know this? don’t be stuck to simple words and understand things as a whole. Prophets prophecized (= it will happen), Jesus talked about it a thousand time before His death (= it will happen)and talked about raising Himself (= it will not only happen, but Jesus knows what will happen after it). In light of all this, how can you say that Jesus wanted to make all previous prophets as liars, and previous scriptures as invalid and telling lies, and as a result, the Father was lying to thousands of years through dozens of prophets? sorry for the harsh language but i had to use it in order for you to realize the absurdity of your claim.

cont.

 

[inJESUS]

Do you really need an answer for this? .

yes i do want an answer. The NT and the apocrypha talk about monogamy. I don’t care about previous prophets. I care about the New Covenant in which Jesus said one wife to one husband, as God created Adam and Eve. Many things happened in the Old Covenant and which were not God’s original plan like polygamy and divorce.This is what Jesus said. Why did your prophet give a blind eye to what Jesus taught? why did your prophet break his own teachings when Allah said you cannot be fair with more than one wife yet Muhammad had a dozen in addition to sexually enjoying widows he killed their husbands? why did your prophet PROHIBIT Ali from having a second wife beside Muhammad’s daughter? indeed too many questions to someone who claimed Jesus is a prophet yet lived none of His teachings.

As a side note, since when do “corrupt” men who corrupt God’s word, and hence have no “morals”, since when do they prefer monogamy eh? the first thing corrupt men would do is change monogamy into polygamy my dear, not the other way round. I hope you got a logical answer .

Quran says, there was something happened on the cross that the jews felt, Jesus (pbuh) died on the cross.

the who? Jews? there were Jews, Romans, and Christians including Mary and John . All of these people “felt” something on the cross? like a mass hallucination? or were they all living on drugs? logic again.

.

No use for waiting my dear. Your ancsestors burned out all of those. They kept only the ones that goes along with Pauline teachigs.

what an intelligent answer. What does Paul have to do with the crucifixion? did he “convince” Jesus’ apostles that it was Jesus? lol. And my ancestors burned nothing. You have a dozen apocrypha available for you in addition to NON-Christian data that my ancestors surely couldn’t have burned. You got the Talmud that my ancestors couldn’t have burned. People who want to burn things will not write of them dear Muslim.You don’t write about heresies and then burn the books. that’s idiotic.But i understand what you are saying simply because you have no clue what my ancestors wrote about neither about the books they wrote that include all the heresies.

God says in Quran, “If it was from someone else than God, you would have found many mistakes in it”.

and we found not only mistakes, but legends and apocrypha and talmudic teachings. If you don’t believe in this, its your problem, but don’t say we found no mistakes cuz we do.

When we do that one test with Bible, it is more than clear that Bible is not from God. God says in Quran, “they wrote something of their own and say, it is from God”. We find that many times in Bible as it is in 1 jn 5:7 and many other places.

again, this was quoted by Jesus’ disciples before any compilation. Do i believe you, or Jesus’ disciples? do i believe the 600 year later Muhammad who didn’t even understand what Son of God means, or Jesus’ disciples? answer is clear. Stop islamizing our scriptures. If you repeat a thousand time about missing paragraphs in some manuscripts , this will NOT change the fact thay they were quoted by the disciples of Jesus’ disciples. Their testimony is more important than manuscripts. Add to it that no manuscripts miss the crucifixion and resurrection, yet you reject it. Again, you are arguing for arguing. List to me all the paragraphs in question, and you will STILL be left with manuscripts, apocrypha and non-Christian documents that talk about Jesus, the Son of God, who was crucified and resurrected yet you believe in none. No scholar, based on manuscipts, deny this, yet you do which shows that you care less for manuscripts or even history. What you have is faith in a man who came 600 years after Jesus, was not sure whether it was an angel who talked to him or he was demon-possessed, no one saw his angel hence one testimony, took from here and there to compile his book, opposing all previous prophets, tespassing Jesus’ New Covenant and made God an impotent deity who cannot take care of His word as He said, all this while attacking Christians and Jews, and enjoying women, including his adopted son’s wife. In this you have faith, not in history or manuscripts in which none denies what you are dying to prove they deny but God is great, He does not let evidences die, no matter how much some people want it. God preserves all His scriptures in order for people to realize His plan, througout all ages, and Muhammad and his likes have no place after what Jesus did and said in the NT, apocrypha, and non-Christian data.

Forgery to promote Islam? I can imagine, based on what you said that.

you read it and read the commentaries on it. It was not my opinion alone.

When Jesus (pbuh) said all the is to be followed, Paul said, it is invalid.

new thread . Show me your expertize about Paul

 

[inJESUS]

Father is the sorce of the wisdom and Spirit. If they were one, it can fulfill all of its functions as it is since GOD never changes.

correct.As i wrote previously:
God is a single “actor,” with a single will. Everything God does is an act of the entire Trinity, acting as one, not as a committee.

Here is an example of how the One God, the Trinity in essense, works as One:

Acts 5:30 “The God of our Fathers raised up Jesus”…

= the Father

Rom.8:11" But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead…

=The Holy Sirit

John.2:19 …Destroy this temple and I will raise it up."

= The Son

wether we say the Father, His Word or His Spirit, we are talking about the One God, One actor that did and does everything through His Word and Spirit starting Genesis. We explain the Oness in terms of Word/ Spirit because scripture explains it since the OT. So when we talk about the Trinity, it is in terms of theology in order to explain the Oness of God through scriptures.

But you again name the wisdom as Jesus and the spirit as Holy Ghost. All they three completes the same one God, but still you name them as three and refer three functions as one as the guide, other as the lamb, third as runner of the show.

we do not “name”. We explain the NATURE of the One God as revealed in OT and NT. The Psalmist, for example, talked clearly about the Spirit of God = God. Did we invent or name it?no. It is God who revealed about His Spirit= Him, not us. We simply explain about the Holy Spirit and we say it is a “person” in the sense that it is God, not an impersonal power. God reveals, we explain what is revealed in light of the OT and how Jesus revealed and explained what was not understood or was not yet fulfilled. After Jesus explained did the apostles understand who the Messiah really is, and not from their misunderstanding of the OT. The apostles themselves thought he will be an earthly king who will save them from their ennemies but Jesus opened their eyes to the correct understanding of scripture.

Did anyone ever knew TRINITY NATURE OF GOD before Jesus (pbuh)? Do any Jew accept trinity? Why is it an alean concept for them, which existed and revealed many prophets for thousands of years? It is a later developed concept my friend, only after Paul, who wanted an answer for cross event

ever heard the saying " wherever there are 2 Jews, there are 3 opinions"? the Jews do not have all the answers you think they can have from reading the OT. Jesus fulfilled and explained, but some rejected, hence they got the introduction and plot (OT), but got no ending (NT). The ending is that God came as the savior, the King, the Messiah, to save when they expected the Messiah to be an earthly king. The Messiah was indeed a King, but Jesus explained in what sense He was a King. He was the King of this world, not an earthly King, and He refused to be ordained as king (read NT) because, exactly, He is the King of this world, not an earthy one as Jews expected, and the King of the Kings came to save, not from the ennemies, but to save the souls from satan, the real ennemy, by nailing all sins to the cross(final atonement) and giving a new life, a new mannah to eat , a New Covenant (= good news of salvation fulfilled). They got the description correct in some sense, but not who the Messiah, the Savior , is.

Jesus told them He will not explain heavenly things cuz they don’t even understand the earthly ones. And yes, the Holy Spirit is God according to Jews, it is surely not an angel. But Jews do not believe in the Word incarnate, so you can say they believe in the Father and His Holy Spirit (without explaining much about the Holy Spirit as we do) , and they do believe the Word of God is God but they do not believe the Word of God was incarnate as the Messiah.

 

[inJESUS]

and you find it in John, right? the most updated story of Jesus-God.

John? i find it all over the NT. Jesus talked about His death in the 4 gospels.

And make up your mind. Is it John the founder of Christianity or Paul? or maybe a conspirary theory by all the disciples

Do you really know what a ‘ransom’ means?

a ransom is when you must pay to get something. A ransom is when you got to pay for every single bad deed you do, spending your life emprisonned to fear and paying debts as if you are dealing with a cruel master. But If you cannot pay and your master decides to pay it for you to make your life better , this is called Love. Do you know what “love” means?

In synoptic Gospels, the show is like this.

regardless of the why, you don’t believe Jesus was crucified so if, for arguments sake, i say that Jesus did not die for our sins, but died because some Jewish leaders and politicians were threatened by His power so they killed him, you still won’t accept it so no need to give scenarios. We did not “kill” Jesus to preach salvation. It is because Jesus died that we preach it. As simple as this.

You can’t make Jesus (pbuh) a willing partner in the cross event, unless you remove that prayer from the Bible forever as a forgery (you Christians did that many times; but those were favouring Islam. Now do something for you).

indeed we must “remove” this forgery simply because Khalfan cannot understand that Jesus had a human will
worse yet, we corrupted things in a very poor way how stupid of us lol. Dear Muslim, logic says, yes *logic *says that people corrupt to suit their ideologies, not to oppose them. Example, i say God commanded polygamy because i thirst for women so i corrupt to suit my desires just like Aisha told Muhammad. Yea she was witty when she told him " Your Allah is so quick in fulfilling your desires" So why would we insert this forgery that,supposedly, does not support our ideology ? aren’t we corrupt people who mislead billions? how can we be so stupid dear Muslim? hehe

It will be answered by my question.

If the wisdom of man in him had the access to the wisdom of God in him? In both case, whether he had or not, the prayer to be saved from cross, doesn’t suite to a willing partner of the cross event.

you still have to prove Jesus did not have a human will but you can’t because Jesus had a human will beside His divine will. His human will does not contradict with the Divine will but acts accordingly, and this is seen in the prayer. By virtue of being a human, and very sorrowful about what is to come, his human will acted in favour of the divine will because He came exactly to fulfill the divine will. A lesson to us as well, that amid difficulties, we must not let our human will act, but we must depend on God’s will to happen. So being an unwilling partner means Jesus should have said NO and kept his word. Yet Jesus said YES. So what you are talking about is not unwillingness but willingness amid difficulties, when a human acts according to God’s plan amid the most terrifying moments. In other words, it is free-choice when the choice is always according to the divine will, and Jesus’ human choice always acted according to the Father’s will, never contradicting it, that’s why He is sinless. All humans have free will and all are sinful. Jesus had free will but was sinless because He was no ordinary human; He had a mission to fulfill, the divine mission.

It was a test for Abraham (pbuh) to check his loyalty to God. Ram is just a remeberenece of that event. We don’t put our sin on the lamb, we don’t sprinkle the blood on sinners.

this did not answer my question. Why does Allah call a ram a GREAT substitute? what is so great about a ram?

Can ther be a trynity without Jesus (pbuh)? No.

yes there can be a Trinity even if the Word did not incarnate as a man. To say there is no Trinity is to say that God is wisdomless and spiritless. But since God, forever, acted through His Word and Spirit, it means the Trinity existed forever, even if the Word did not incarnate as a man. Jesus explained the nature of God, He did not “make” it.

cont…

 

[inJESUS]

I have already said, TRINITY IS A CONCEPT DEVELOPED ONLY AFTER JESUS (PBUH) or rather PAUL.

mashallah. Did you come with this by your own? Trinity is all over the OT. Father, His Spirit (Psalm, Genesis ecc) and Wisdom/Word (book of Wisdom). These are examples in the OT. Examples in the NT can be given regardless of the apostle Paul. Moreover, there are the writings of the church fathers. Pick and choose

That is no Jews believe in it. You have your stories to make it true. I can understand that. But you cannot prove it existed ever.

you can’t prove God exists Jews do not believe in Jesus but Jews believe the Holy Spirit and Wisdom/Logos is God. If you don’t believe that Allah has Wisdom/Word and Spirit, that’s not our problem.

My dear friend, you must understand. I don’t have a problem with what God can be or cannot be.

good so lets not argue whether God can become a human while remaining God or He can’t. If He wants, He can. Period.

The only problem is Jesus (pbhu), his life and cross event. If there is no cross, No Christianity, No trinity.

says who? if Jesus was not crucified, God becomes wisdomless?if the Word did not incarnate, God becomes wordless? if He was not crucified, you’d still get Christianity and Trinity but surely a different one.

The only reason that makes you believe Jesus (pbuh) is God, is the belief that he gave his life on the cross for our sin.

i never read such a statement in my life. Jesus is God because He said so, regardless of whether He was crucified or not.

Do God really need a payment to forgive our sins?

God needs nothing. *We *have to pay for our sins if we want to be with Him. Humans sins, and humans must pay. But we cannot pay for our sins.We do not merit to be with Him because of our deeds, OT and NT are clear on this point. We can be with Him only If He wants to. And since He wants ALL people to be saved, He planned for one act of salvation to ALL in all times so that people depend on God’s salvation, not their own deeds. Through this act of salvation, anyone can be saved, provided he accepts God’s salvation. Since it is humans who must pay for humanity’s sins, the Word became a human to pay the price for all, out of love, not need. The Law says humans must pay and the Law was fulfilled. Jesus took humanity on His shoulders and fulfilled the Law because humans cannot.That’s why we live through Jesus, we do everything in His name,.

Can I sak you back, Why God is only in three nature, why not in ten as the hindus believe? or Just like love, mercy, angry, sad etc in any incarnated form of any animal like dow, cow or lion etc? People do believe in such incarnations in INDIA and ion many other place.

He revealed that He does everything through His Word and Spirit. He revealed nothing of what you mentioned above,

 

[inJESUS]

I wonder, how can you still say, you have the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh), even after you know people have added fabricated stories into Bible in the name disciples?

you have to prove that fabricated stories were added, by whom and when. And these fabricated stories must not be quoted by the church fathers. Gather all the passages you think are fabricated, by whom and when, and let us put them aside, and see whether they affect any doctrine or belief. Or , prove to me that all the crucifixion and resurrection stories were a fabrication, that all the sentences about Jesus our God are fabrications, that all the passages of Him being the Unique Son of God are fabricated, that all the sentences about His death for salvation are fabrications, that all the passages about the Holy Spirit is God are fabrications, and none must be quoted by the church fathers. Let’s finish with your repetitive claims and let’s see

Quote:
1-ask Jesus to appear in person to you and tell you.

2- do not say Marc misses the resurrection when it is there.

‘Jesus’ wasn’t appeared to anyone till then. And the story body missing was never told. The resurrected appearence contradicts from beginning to end.

irrelevant. Marc says without equivocation that Jesus the crucified was raised. Nothing wrong if you confess being mistaken

Quran is not reporting history of Mohamed (pbuh), so it has it’s way of talking according to situation. But Gospels are reporting history and history cannot happen 4 times in 4 way.

quran is reporting history of the prophets and previous events, each time with differing or more details yet the author is supposedly an all-knowing one. The gospels record the same events and sometimes not, from 4 testimonies.

Are you blind or acting like one? When a sceleton of a story is been fabricated by you, and told someone, he reworked it with his own interpretations and told a third one and again reworked and told a forth one, would you still say it was the details of the same sceleton? People might have discussed what they saw on the cross. Then the details and reasons grown-up like snow ball. The contradictions are so visible in the details.

contradiction = crucifixion happened in one gospel, and no it did not happen in another one. Or resurrection happened in one gospel and no in another. THIS is a contradiction. I cant believe am explaining to you what contradiction means. Different details are NOT contradictions, but enrichment. You should not be blind to reach this conclusion, you must only have brain.

I think the problem here is, it wasn’t something Jesus (pbuh) taught to pray LIKE THIS,

i think the problem is that there is no problem.

What is it, ‘debts’ or ‘sins’ originally?

debt is a metaphore for sin in the Bible.

 

[inJESUS]

Mark 1:14 Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God

,

Mark 1:14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God.

Is that Gospel (Good News = Injeel), purely those gospels, without the words of disciples, without versions, without difference in concepts, available today? Khalfan, what you read in todays’ NT has been quoted since the first century by our church fathers. This is why any criticism of passages drops on deaf ears.

Quote:

did you read? st Jerome translated the original texts. Did you check his translation to see if it is a different Bible or not? maybe you will find that Jesus was not crucified, was not raised, is not God ecc? go check

 

[famdigy]

Wasn’t the gospel of Barnabas carbon dated to be written before the ministry of Prophet Muhammad (s)

 

[inJESUS]

I wonder, how can you still say, you have the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh), even after you know people have added fabricated stories into Bible in the name disciples?

you have to prove that fabricated stories were added, by whom and when. And these fabricated stories must not be quoted by the church fathers, otherwise they won’t be fabricated. Gather all the passages you think are fabricated, by whom and when, and let us put them aside, and see whether they affect any doctrine or belief. Or , prove to me that all the crucifixion and resurrection stories were a fabrication, that all the sentences about Jesus our God are fabrications, that all the passages of Him being the Unique Son of God are fabricated, that all the sentences about His death for salvation are fabrications, that all the passages about the Holy Spirit is God are fabrications, and none must be quoted by the church fathers. Let’s finish with your repetitive claims and let’s see

Quote:
1-ask Jesus to appear in person to you and tell you.

2- do not say Marc misses the resurrection when it is there.

‘Jesus’ wasn’t appeared to anyone till then. And the story body missing was never told. The resurrected appearence contradicts from beginning to end.

irrelevant. Marc says without equivocation that Jesus the crucified was raised. Nothing wrong if you confess being mistaken

Quran is not reporting history of Mohamed (pbuh), so it has it’s way of talking according to situation. But Gospels are reporting history and history cannot happen 4 times in 4 way.

quran is reporting history of the prophets and previous events, each time with differing or more details yet the author is supposedly an all-knowing one. The gospels record the same events and sometimes not, from 4 testimonies.

Are you blind or acting like one? When a sceleton of a story is been fabricated by you, and told someone, he reworked it with his own interpretations and told a third one and again reworked and told a forth one, would you still say it was the details of the same sceleton? People might have discussed what they saw on the cross. Then the details and reasons grown-up like snow ball. The contradictions are so visible in the details.

contradiction = crucifixion happened in one gospel, and no it did not happen in another one. Or resurrection happened in one gospel and no in another. THIS is a contradiction. I cant believe am explaining to you what contradiction means. Different details are NOT contradictions, but enrichment. You should not be blind to reach this conclusion, you must only have brain.

I think the problem here is, it wasn’t something Jesus (pbuh) taught to pray LIKE THIS,

i think the problem is that there is no problem.

What is it, ‘debts’ or ‘sins’ originally?

debt is a metaphore for sins.

 

[inJESUS]

He prayed to be saved from cross if possible. He prayed IN PRIVATE.

you mentioned Jesus asking questions. I asked you where was Jesus asking the Father if He can save Him? did Jesus say : can you please save me? and the the Father said NO, so Jesus said ok let it be?

Again , red harring? the question was, HAVE THE WISDOM OF MAN IN JESUS (pbuh) HAD THE ACCESS TO THE WISDOM OF GOD IN JESUS (pbuh)?

If he had, he wouldn’t pray in private, since that is not the way to teach people, being in private.

If he hadn’t,

a) He didn’t know he is Wisdom of God which is equal to God according to you. or,
b) He were unable to use the Godly power (to know the will of the father atleast, before he start to pray) as and when needed. In other words, God in him was unable to help him in needs, (since it didn’t help him in needs).

answered already.

What ae you saying, either the wisdom of man in him had access to the wisdom of God in him or he hadn’t? It can’t be Yes and No. It is self contradicting.

i dont know what you mean by access. I know Jesus has both divine wisdom and human wisdom. How He did both i don’t know. where He used divine wisdom and where He used human wisdom and how is not something i know about , it is God’s business; He knows when to deal with humanity with divine wisdom and when to deal with human wisdom.

Can God be a man? I agree, God can be a man.

good so let’s not argue about this point anymore.

Can a man be God? Subject to confirmation. It is not scriptural. None of the people before Jesus (pbuh) believed in it. It is illogocal.

no scripture says a man can become God so i agree.

Even the same Jesus (pbuh) never said he is God. If it is based the divinly interpretations of something he said, while very humanly interpretations do exist, it has to be an imposed divinity.

Jesus said He is God, as clear as the sun. It is because you don’t want to believe in this that you forget about the audiance He adressed, the use of words He chose, and how the audiance reacted…and when you read the words where He says He is God, you claim it is corrupt. When you want an answer from the Bible, you’ll get it, but then you’ll resort to the islamic mantra of corruption. So save yourself and us the energy. he Bible says clearly Jesus is God, but it is “corrupt”, so don’t say Jesus never said He is God. As to interpretations, i don’t think you know more than His disciples and their disciples, in the same way i don’t know more than your prophet’s sahaba.

And you already agreed, it is something out of your understanding. Your are not sure about your interpretations than just pointing to a possibility.

what is out of understamding is the nature of God, not the words of Jesus.

Can God help the man in ‘Jesus’, not to feel pain? Yes. I hope you won’t disagree that.

Can can do whatever He wants id He sees fit.

How could you foresee, I won’t die? Are you God, or a prophet?

you are sunni par excellence. So instead of arguing the concept, you argue words. What i gave is a hypothetical situation in order that you realize the absurdity of equalling a school test with crucifixion.

Where did salvation came from? What salvation have to do with killing? If any prophet got killed by his enymies, how would that stop him from entering heaven? What do you mean by salvation, being here on earth in phisical body forever? Is that the Christian logic?

i was answering your claim that Jesus prayed to be saved from the cross. And according to your logic, God answered because Jesus, supposedly, wanted something else so God saved Jesus. That’s why i asked about all prophets who were killed, and about laymen who are killed. God gave a blind ear to all of them but when it came to Jesus, God decided to save him, making all previous scriptures a big joke and prophets liars?

Quote:
but he said you are created in his image.

Where?

islamqa.com/index.php?ref=20652&ln=eng

cont.

 

[inJESUS]

Does he have to become a man to know our feelings? No my dear. He is our creator. He knows us and our feelings better than us.

no He does not have to become a man to know our feelings. But He DOES know our feelings, He DOES know how we feel, He does know how we think. He is not an alien who is remote to humanity but a Father who knows His children.Knowing how we feel and how we think does not make Him less God. Talking to us using human language and sound does not make Him less God. Communicating with us according to our limited bains does not make Him limited. It is the divine behaving in humans terms for us to understand, and NOT a man who became God. It is God who contains humanity, and not humanity that contains God. THe same God, who is not a man, yet who speaks using human language and sound as if He has vocal cords, the same God who breathes life as if He has lungs and uses oxygen, the same God who spoke to limited humans according to their own limitation, the same God who knows how we think and what we fear, this same God knows when to use His divine wisdom and when to use our wisdom, not a senseless deity who feels ashamed of anything human.

Not exactly. That word ‘makara’ can also mean decieve. Even if we take that verse for ‘deciver’, it doesn’t misrepresent God since God deciving the decivers, not the innocents or good people. God have his own way to punish the sinners; it’s his right to do so.

ah so when it comes to the Quran, you give reasons for such a word usage, but when it comes to the Bible, it msut be “corrupt” right? and who was your allah deceiving on the cross? evil Jews? what about the innocents who were there? what about Mary, John and other followers of Jesus? did your Allah consider then evil as well?

He can. If he come to us in human form, and still be God, he have to be so.

good.

He can’t be contradicting himself by praying to another God or his God, since God cannot have another God or more powerful part of his own. He won’t talk about his God. He won’t say, he is helpless of anything unless he is enpowered by some other God or the greater part of his own. If he do, he is not God. If you imagine a man did both, then that man wasn’t God.

this can only be understood when you think of the second nature of Jesus AND the fact that the Word of God is subject to God.If you believe the word of God is more powerful than God so what can i say?

If he had God nature in him he was supposed to claim that plainly.

He did yet you call it corruption. What do you want a video recorder?

He was supposed to show something of that divinity while he was on earth.

like what?

What you have is, some (mis)interpretation of his quotes which can also be interpreted as from a messenger as many others;

indeed. All previous messengers said they give wisdom, power, rest, knowledge and peace. All messengers said that no one knows the Father except them.

some forgery quotes like 1 john 5:7, Mark 1:1; some gardually developed stories written by unknown authors and later thological invensions. If we keep those doubtful writings away, what left is a big zero in support to his divinity.

forget about all the Bible. You are left with the writings of the disciples’ disciples in our tradition. You still think with islamic eyeglasses. Put them away and UNDERSTAND once for all that before the Bible, we have the testimony of disciples and their disciples in our tradition. THIS you cannot question, unless these people did not know who Jesus is and Muhammad , neither eyewitness nor disciple, knew better because an angel told him so while he was on Aicha’s bed

“Do not hurt me regarding Aisha, as the Divine Inspirations do not come to me on any of the beds except that of Aisha.”

Aicha’s bed is the muse, but all the disciples and their disciples with all the churches established were wrong, right?

cont…

 

[inJESUS]

Did I say, the creatures are bad? To me, both swaer (whether it is on himself or on his creatures) is valid since it God and he have the right to do so. God swore on creatures in Quran. Consider those creatures, you will understand the imporatnce of that creature and that was the purpose for why God did so

. it is strange that God only swore by Himself yet Allah swears by created things. But i accept that creatures are very important, and most important are the humans to which Allah supposedly asked the angels to bow down to them.

It is really a big problem for many of your own scholars my dear. For the very same reason, that it can be a fabrication. The earlist manuscript you have itself is from centuries after Jesus (pbuh).

i dont care about manuscripts more than the disciples’ disciples. Isnt that clear enough?

Why the manuscripts, the living gospels itself miss to record many events said in the other gospel. Many events said Mark is not there in John and many said in John is not there in Mark. Same applies to other two gospels as well. Now there are manythings that never said in any gospels but in the letters of Paul. Life of Jesus (pbuh) until he was 30 year old is not recorded in any book. Similarly, there can be many events and teachings of Jesus (pbuh) that is not recorded by anyone in any books that accepted by church. In that point of view, how can you deny any events mentioned in Quran? You are not supposed to since you know it possible to have happened and were untold in the gospels or any available writings. In fact, Quran doesn’t make any claim that wasn’t there among the Jews.

John himself said the books of the world cannot contain what Jesus did and said so you are not bringing anything new. The disciples were interested in reporting what Jesus did for our salvation, not what he used to eat and drink. You miss completely the purpose of the authors.

What is mentioned in the Quran about Jesus is NULL. Some ficticious passages taken from apocrypha, that’s it and which oppose history, that’s why we reject them.

 

[inJESUS]

Only the divinity was/is and will always be in question.

to you, not to us.

Secondly, what people believed/believe is not the question, but what was he in reality is the question.

it is indeed the question because you donot know who Jesus is more than Jesus’ disciples. We are not talking about prople 600 years after Jesus, we are talking about people who were the disciples’ disciples. You might not care what they wrote about, but we do because they know more than anyone else, including your prophet.

Do you have any record of the below people?

Matthew 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

Such a great event in the history of mankind, dead people rose and walked the street, must be there in all records. Isn’t it? But seems like only matthew saw those people walking the streets.

and a virgin giving birth to the Messiah is as important yet recorded by only 2. Why don’t you claim it did not happen?

Abraham building the Kaaba is found nowhere except in your tradition. Logically, then, it never happened cuz no previous prophet wrote about it. Agree?

Yaa… I can see that. Matthew 27:9-10 quote about the potter’s field to Jeremiah, when Jeremiah has no such passage, and the closest one in the OT is Zechariah 11:12 !

Matthew’s citation is a conflation of Zechariah 11:12 and Jeremiah 19:1-13 and 32:6-9.

“Thus said the LORD: Go, buy a potter’s earthen flask. Take along some of the elders of the people and of the priests…” Jeremiah 1:13

Matthew 2:23 refers to an OT prophecy being fulfilled “He shall be called a Nazarene” The entire OT doesn’t such prophecy !!

correct, IF you understood what Matthew was talking about. Look at the way in which Matthew refers to the Nazarene
prophecy:

“So was fulfilled what was said through the PROPHETS”
Matthew did not say, as usual, “prophet Isaiah” or “prophet Jeremiah” or “prophet Zechariah” . What he used is a rare reference in the NT, and which means that we do not find a single, specific prophecy, by a specific prophet but rather a group to that effect. Jesus did the same thing when He refered to prophets in general. If you are interested in what Matthew meant by refering to scriptures while talking about “Nazarene” , then i’d answer it.

John 19:25 …But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby…"

Those people were standing so near to the cross. But none of them heard the Psalmic quote.

says who?

In which language he quoted that? Hebrew in Matthew, Aramic in Mark.

what difference does it make?

Matthew and Mark never saw any woman standing near the cross but far from it.

did they say that there were no women standing near the cross?

Another possibility, was it prophecy historyfiying?

what does historyfing mean?