Muslims: How could the Trinity NOT work?!

[inJESUS]

Wasn’t the gospel of Barnabas carbon dated to be written before the ministry of Prophet Muhammad (s)

nop.The Gospel of Barnabas mentions things that were not used until centuries later. Coins in chapter 54 (golden denarius divided into sixty minuti) were Spanish.
“Whereupon, as the food was going down [Adam’s throat], he remembered the words of God; wherefore, wishing to stop the food, he put his hand into this throat, where every man has the mark.” (“Adam’s apple” was first a Medieval European phrase)

Kings’ barons. ch.131 p.301
You desire horses like knights. ch.69 p.159
The burden of the republic. ch.69 p.161
Courtiers. ch.133 p.307
Fistula (A medical term not used until the Middle Ages for a drainage opening made in the body) ch.120 p.275

The opinion is that it is a 14th century forgery.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… Can you tell me, why trinity was an alien concept for jews lived before Jesus (pbuh)?

One of the ancient biblical names for God is “Elohim” which is a plural which suggests that there were multiple persons who had divine nature. So I guess, the concept of the trinity was being learned amoungst the ancient Jews. :twocents:

 

[famdigy]

nop.The Gospel of Barnabas mentions things that were not used until centuries later. Coins in chapter 54 (golden denarius divided into sixty minuti) were Spanish.
“Whereupon, as the food was going down [Adam’s throat], he remembered the words of God; wherefore, wishing to stop the food, he put his hand into this throat, where every man has the mark.” (“Adam’s apple” was first a Medieval European phrase)

Kings’ barons. ch.131 p.301
You desire horses like knights. ch.69 p.159
The burden of the republic. ch.69 p.161
Courtiers. ch.133 p.307
Fistula (A medical term not used until the Middle Ages for a drainage opening made in the body) ch.120 p.275
The opinion is that it is a 14th century forgery.

Ah yes, I was thinking about the dead sea scrolls

 

[Keikiolu]

…{snip}…

Can you tell me, why trinity was an alien concept for jews lived before Jesus (pbuh)?

The simple answer is the same as why “nuclear physics” is an “alien concept” to a 6 year old.

Revelation, the revealing of information, is given to people as THE FATHER (or He who HAS information to give) sees fit as the wisest course of things.

Any questions?

 

[Khalfan]

The simple answer is the same as why “nuclear physics” is an “alien concept” to a 6 year old.

Revelation, the revealing of information, is given to people as THE FATHER (or He who HAS information to give) sees fit as the wisest course of things.

Any questions?

You mean God never wanted anyone to know him, till Jesus (pbuh)?

 

[Khalfan]

One of the ancient biblical names for God is “Elohim” which is a plural which suggests that there were multiple persons who had divine nature. So I guess, the concept of the trinity was being learned amoungst the ancient Jews. :twocents:

But none of them knew it. Even the righeous people.

 

[Khalfan]

no i misundersttod what yu said. You gave the implication that a human became God. I dont know how a virgin can be pregant without sexual union so i surely dont know how can Jesus be both divine and human but since God can do it, so be it and i thank Him. God can manifest Himself in any form He likes while being God. His business, His ways, not mine.

Thanks. Now, would you stop explaining something you don’t know? I will appreciate that.

 

[Khalfan]

whoever wrote it, it was written after Muhammad. The apocrypha i am asking yu to show and which denies Jesus’ crucifixion must be written before Muhammad, not after. So far i found none and am waiting for you to find one.

It wasn’t preserved as other books I believe. Since you are still getting MOST EARLY MANUSCRIPTS that dosn’t have many of the verses and chapters that you have in the Bible today, let’s hope for a copy that says the true event happened to Jesus (pbuh) written by someone he knew.

you don’t know about the stories in the gospels because you don’t have them in the Quran. What you have are the fabricated stories written in the 4th century by God knows who and which were never quoted in our tradition. The stories found in the gospels were quoted by the disciples’ disciples and their disciples after them. If you question these people, i repeat, we dust off our sandals. Jesus sent them and told them there are people who will not accept their testimony so they must dust off their sandals.We do believe in them because we simply do not reject the disciples. You want to believe that Jesus spoke in the cradle and breathed life into birds, yu are free, but know “these” are the fabricated ficticious stories written by unknown people who were neither disciples not pupils nor church fathers nor were quoted by any of them. So historically speaking, you have no basis, as usual. What you have is faith in what Muhammad told you is the literal word of Allah when history is before your own eyes which shows these are the words of men that knew neither Jesus, nor the apostles, nor their disciples and which wrote their fictions centuries after the church fathers already quoted the true teachings before any NT compilation.

How do you say, you have historical basis, when all of the writers are unknown?? when any of the original writings are unavailable??? when you are still getting early scripts with missing words, verses and chapters???

the Quran does not say it wasn’t Jesus. I repeat, these same exact words are found in the gnostic apocrypha of Peter talking about Jesus’ crucifixion, not someone else you might not want to confess this to yourself, but to us it is clear.

Second, it IS important. If it is not Jesus, it means it was someone else. Whoever you think it was, why did your Allah kill someone else instead of Jesus and made people believe it was Jesus? don’t you object to the idea of someone being killed instead of someone else? i want theological reasons. I expect logical answers.

God’s way, his logic, his purpose. Only he knows why.

heresies and apocrypha were either written down, mentioned and answered to by the church fathers,and in details or they are available for you to read. None of them denies the crucifixion. None.

But the available ones. Even in the available books, Jesus (pbuh) was not a willing partner in the cross event.

As to the prayer, you still have to answer:
how do you know that none of the previous prophets that were killed prayed for their “salvation”?

and why doesn’t Allah answer the prayers of laymen subject to death?

How do you know, any of the prophets were prayed to be saved? in case of Jesus (pbuh), it is written in your own book.

and how did you understand, from Jesus’ words, that the Father “might” save him, if what Jesus said is that the will of the Father (crucifixion) is to happen, quoting previously the prophecies of the prophets and prophecizing it Himself? will the Father forget about all the prophecies by all the previous prophets because Jesus “as you think” asked it? will the Father make all previous prophets as liars? didn’t God say that when prophets prophecize, it happens?or didn’t Jesus know this? don’t be stuck to simple words and understand things as a whole. Prophets prophecized (= it will happen), Jesus talked about it a thousand time before His death (= it will happen)and talked about raising Himself (= it will not only happen, but Jesus knows what will happen after it). In light of all this, how can you say that Jesus wanted to make all previous prophets as liars, and previous scriptures as invalid and telling lies, and as a result, the Father was lying to thousands of years through dozens of prophets? sorry for the harsh language but i had to use it in order for you to realize the absurdity of your claim.

cont.

He is very much a prophesised willing partner of the cross event in JOHN, but not in others. That’s the problem. They didn’t know his willingness. Either Jesus (pbuh) was willing or Matthew mark and luke did lie about Jesus (pbuh).

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*The simple answer is the same as why “nuclear physics” is an “alien concept” to a 6 year old.

Revelation, the revealing of information, is given to people as THE FATHER (or He who HAS information to give) sees fit as the wisest course of things.

Any questions?*

You mean God never wanted anyone to know him, till Jesus (pbuh)?

We, “man”, were not ready for that particular piece of knowledge until that point. We had a partial knowledge of God before Jesus, and a somewhat fuller knowledge of God with (after) Jesus.

That is what “fullness of time” means. Revelation is revealed over time (progressively) as God decides it is time to do so.

Any further questions?

 

[Khalfan]

yes i do want an answer. The NT and the apocrypha talk about monogamy. I don’t care about previous prophets…indeed too many questions to someone who claimed Jesus is a prophet yet lived none of His teachings.

As a side note, since when do “corrupt” men who corrupt God’s word, and hence have no “morals”, since when do they prefer monogamy eh? the first thing corrupt men would do is change monogamy into polygamy my dear, not the other way round. I hope you got a logical answer .

Just have look at prophets (pbuh) life, you will get the answer. Such a womaniser that married a 40 year old widow in his young age as 25 and lived together till he was 52. Then married a virgin girl who was already engaged with another guy, as per her fathers request. Then married some old aged widows for their safty and political purposes. You won’t find such a womaniser in the history of mankind who slept with only one young girl in all his life, who lived with only one woman till he was 52 year old. Such accusation should have some basis. Saying lies just to disprove Islam, neither show a good christian my friend.

the who? Jews? there were Jews, Romans, and Christians including Mary and John . All of these people “felt” something on the cross? like a mass hallucination? or were they all living on drugs? logic again.

The logic is, none of them heard the cry, why have you forsaken me even after they were so close to the cross. But some others heard it, and he also saw that all of them were standing far from him.

what an intelligent answer. What does Paul have to do with the crucifixion? did he “convince” Jesus’ apostles that it was Jesus? lol. And my ancestors burned nothing. You have a dozen apocrypha available for you in addition to NON-Christian data that my ancestors surely couldn’t have burned. You got the Talmud that my ancestors couldn’t have burned. People who want to burn things will not write of them dear Muslim.You don’t write about heresies and then burn the books. that’s idiotic.But i understand what you are saying simply because you have no clue what my ancestors wrote about neither about the books they wrote that include all the heresies.

Paul’s letter were written even before any gospels were written, will you deny that?

What if talmudic prophecies were historyfied by gospel writers?

and we found not only mistakes, but legends and apocrypha and talmudic teachings. If you don’t believe in this, its your problem, but don’t say we found no mistakes cuz we do.

Not as genuine as in the Bible.

again, this was quoted by Jesus’ disciples before any compilation. …God preserves all His scriptures in order for people to realize His plan, througout all ages, and Muhammad and his likes have no place after what Jesus did and said in the NT, apocrypha, and non-Christian data.

you read it and read the commentaries on it. It was not my opinion alone.

I do believe in Quran’s claims, since I believe God doesn’t forget after 600 or 6000 years.

new thread . Show me your expertize about Paul

Jesus (pbuh) validated the law. Mt 5:19, 19:17.

Paul invalidated the law. Gal 2:16.

Jesus (pbuh) said, he didn’t come to abolish the law. Mt 5:17.

Paul said, Jesus (pbuh) did abolish the law. Eph 2:14-15.

 

[Khalfan]

We, “man”, were not ready for that particular piece of knowledge until that point. We had a partial knowledge of God before Jesus, and a somewhat fuller knowledge of God with (after) Jesus.

That is what “fullness of time” means. Revelation is revealed over time (progressively) as God decides it is time to do so.

Any further questions?

This is why people say TRINITY of GOD was invented by christians.

Any further comments?

 

[Khalfan]

correct.As i wrote previously:
God is a single “actor,” with a single will. Everything God does is an act of the entire Trinity, acting as one, not as a committee.

Here is an example of how the One God, the Trinity in essense, works as One:

Acts 5:30 “The God of our Fathers raised up Jesus”…

= the Father

Rom.8:11" But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead…

=The Holy Sirit

John.2:19 …Destroy this temple and I will raise it up."

= The Son

wether we say the Father, His Word or His Spirit, we are talking about the One God, One actor that did and does everything through His Word and Spirit starting Genesis. We explain the Oness in terms of Word/ Spirit because scripture explains it since the OT. So when we talk about the Trinity, it is in terms of theology in order to explain the Oness of God through scriptures.

we do not “name”. We explain the NATURE of the One God as revealed in OT and NT. The Psalmist, for example, talked clearly about the Spirit of God = God. Did we invent or name it?no. It is God who revealed about His Spirit= Him, not us. We simply explain about the Holy Spirit and we say it is a “person” in the sense that it is God, not an impersonal power. God reveals, we explain what is revealed in light of the OT and how Jesus revealed and explained what was not understood or was not yet fulfilled. After Jesus explained did the apostles understand who the Messiah really is, and not from their misunderstanding of the OT. The apostles themselves thought he will be an earthly king who will save them from their ennemies but Jesus opened their eyes to the correct understanding of scripture.

ever heard the saying " wherever there are 2 Jews, there are 3 opinions"? the Jews do not have all the answers you think they can have from reading the OT. Jesus fulfilled and explained, but some rejected, hence they got the introduction and plot (OT), but got no ending (NT). The ending is that God came as the savior, the King, the Messiah, to save when they expected the Messiah to be an earthly king. The Messiah was indeed a King, but Jesus explained in what sense He was a King. He was the King of this world, not an earthly King, and He refused to be ordained as king (read NT) because, exactly, He is the King of this world, not an earthy one as Jews expected, and the King of the Kings came to save, not from the ennemies, but to save the souls from satan, the real ennemy, by nailing all sins to the cross(final atonement) and giving a new life, a new mannah to eat , a New Covenant (= good news of salvation fulfilled). They got the description correct in some sense, but not who the Messiah, the Savior , is.

Jesus told them He will not explain heavenly things cuz they don’t even understand the earthly ones. And yes, the Holy Spirit is God according to Jews, it is surely not an angel. But Jews do not believe in the Word incarnate, so you can say they believe in the Father and His Holy Spirit (without explaining much about the Holy Spirit as we do) , and they do believe the Word of God is God but they do not believe the Word of God was incarnate as the Messiah.

Don’t keep on explaining since you already agreed, you don’t know what is it.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*We, “man”, were not ready for that particular piece of knowledge until that point. We had a partial knowledge of God before Jesus, and a somewhat fuller knowledge of God with (after) Jesus.

That is what “fullness of time” means. Revelation is revealed over time (progressively) as God decides it is time to do so.

Any further questions?*

This is why people say TRINITY of GOD was invented by christians.

Any further comments?

What is your point?

People (who don’t believe in the Holy Trinity) can say what they like…!

People COULD say that “God is a Chicken-Salad!”, to which we would BOTH say they invented the “God is Chicken-Salad” theology.,… which we both would…!

You don’t believe the revealed truth that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, for your own reasons, which is your right.

I do believe that. I’ve given you the reason I believe that. You don’t consider my reason valid. That’s perfectly fine.

Best to you with your beliefs, my friend.

 

[Khalfan]

a ransom is when you must pay to get something. A ransom is when you got to pay for every single bad deed you do, spending your life emprisonned to fear and paying debts as if you are dealing with a cruel master. But If you cannot pay and your master decides to pay it for you to make your life better , this is called Love. Do you know what “love” means?

To whom the ransom was paid to? then we will talk of the love.

indeed we must “remove” this forgery simply because Khalfan cannot understand that Jesus had a human will
worse yet, we corrupted things in a very poor way how stupid of us lol. Dear Muslim, logic says, yes *logic *says that people corrupt to suit their ideologies, not to oppose them. Example, i say God commanded polygamy because i thirst for women so i corrupt to suit my desires just like Aisha told Muhammad. Yea she was witty when she told him " Your Allah is so quick in fulfilling your desires" So why would we insert this forgery that,supposedly, does not support our ideology ? aren’t we corrupt people who mislead billions? how can we be so stupid dear Muslim? hehe

No my dear. It is becasue, Matthew didn’t know what John was about to write, John didn’t know what matthew wrote. Thats why you have synoptic gospels and John’s gospel alone as fits nowhere. Both of them didn’t know their books will be compiled into a book called BIBLE. Hope you got the logic.

you still have to prove Jesus did not have a human will but you can’t because Jesus had a human will beside His divine will. His human will does not contradict with the Divine will but acts accordingly, and this is seen in the prayer. By virtue of being a human, and very sorrowful about what is to come, his human will acted in favour of the divine will because He came exactly to fulfill the divine will. A lesson to us as well, that amid difficulties, we must not let our human will act, but we must depend on God’s will to happen. So being an unwilling partner means Jesus should have said NO and kept his word. Yet Jesus said YES. So what you are talking about is not unwillingness but willingness amid difficulties, when a human acts according to God’s plan amid the most terrifying moments. In other words, it is free-choice when the choice is always according to the divine will, and Jesus’ human choice always acted according to the Father’s will, never contradicting it, that’s why He is sinless. All humans have free will and all are sinful. Jesus had free will but was sinless because He was no ordinary human; He had a mission to fulfill, the divine mission.

He had both will according to you. HAVE THE WISDOM OF MAN IN HIM HAD THE ACCESS TO THE WISDOM OF GOD IN HIM? you never answered this. If you don’t know, don’t explain it.

yes there can be a Trinity even if the Word did not incarnate as a man. To say there is no Trinity is to say that God is wisdomless and spiritless. But since God, forever, acted through His Word and Spirit, it means the Trinity existed forever, even if the Word did not incarnate as a man. Jesus explained the nature of God, He did not “make” it.

cont…

Please don’t explain what you don’t know. OK?

 

[Khalfan]

What is your point?

People (who don’t believe in the Holy Trinity) can say what they like…!

People COULD say that “God is a Chicken-Salad!”, to which we would BOTH say they invented the “God is Chicken-Salad” theology.,… which we both would…!

You don’t believe the revealed truth that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, for your own reasons, which is your right.

I do believe that. I’ve given you the reason I believe that. You don’t consider my reason valid. That’s perfectly fine.

Best to you with your beliefs, my friend.

I respect that view.

Quran 109.001 Say: O unbelievers! 002 I do not serve that which you serve, 003 Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve: 004 Nor am I going to serve that which you serve, 005 Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve: 006 You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

 

[Khalfan]

mashallah. Did you come with this by your own? Trinity is all over the OT. Father, His Spirit (Psalm, Genesis ecc) and Wisdom/Word (book of Wisdom). These are examples in the OT. Examples in the NT can be given regardless of the apostle Paul. Moreover, there are the writings of the church fathers. Pick and choose

Thats why none of the jews believe in trinity. right?

Jesus is God because He said so, regardless of whether He was crucified or not.

Not even once he said that. You will have your own ways to interpret his words and I will have main. But the Islamic claim, that he is a prophet send by God, he said many times explicitly. No need interpretations.

God needs nothing. *We *have to pay for our sins if we want to be with Him. Humans sins, and humans must pay. But we cannot pay for our sins.We do not merit to be with Him because of our deeds, OT and NT are clear on this point. We can be with Him only If He wants to. And since He wants ALL people to be saved, He planned for one act of salvation to ALL in all times so that people depend on God’s salvation, not their own deeds. Through this act of salvation, anyone can be saved, provided he accepts God’s salvation. Since it is humans who must pay for humanity’s sins, the Word became a human to pay the price for all, out of love, not need. The Law says humans must pay and the Law was fulfilled. Jesus took humanity on His shoulders and fulfilled the Law because humans cannot.That’s why we live through Jesus, we do everything in His name,.

God forgives us if we repent. He never asked for blood.

 

[Khalfan]

you have to prove that fabricated stories were added, by whom and when. And these fabricated stories must not be quoted by the church fathers. Gather all the passages you think are fabricated, by whom and when, and let us put them aside, and see whether they affect any doctrine or belief. Or , prove to me that all the crucifixion and resurrection stories were a fabrication, that all the sentences about Jesus our God are fabrications, that all the passages of Him being the Unique Son of God are fabricated, that all the sentences about His death for salvation are fabrications, that all the passages about the Holy Spirit is God are fabrications, and none must be quoted by the church fathers. Let’s finish with your repetitive claims and let’s see

((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))

You ask them who was those ancient witnesses and what was those most reliable early manuscripts are. If you confirmed the fabrication, find out who wrote and included it in mark. Ask them what happened to 1 john 5:7 as well. Then find out who wrote and included it in Bible when and how. Read NIV from beginning till end. Read the foot notes. Ask the authors where they got the details for removal of verses. Something may come up that can open your mind.

irrelevant. Marc says without equivocation that Jesus the crucified was raised. Nothing wrong if you confess being mistaken

The problem is not what mark said. The problem is, who wrote something mark never said and imposed on his name. Those guys could make any change anywhere in the Bible, since no one knows what is the original.

quran is reporting history of the prophets and previous events, each time with differing or more details yet the author is supposedly an all-knowing one. The gospels record the same events and sometimes not, from 4 testimonies.

contradiction = crucifixion happened in one gospel, and no it did not happen in another one. Or resurrection happened in one gospel and no in another. THIS is a contradiction. I cant believe am explaining to you what contradiction means. Different details are NOT contradictions, but enrichment. You should not be blind to reach this conclusion, you must only have brain.

i think the problem is that there is no problem.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

‘Jesus’ was not supposed to be touched as he wasn’t ascented to father.

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

‘Jesus’ wasn’t ascented but still he could be touched.

Contradiction?

debt is a metaphore for sin in the Bible.

What was the original word in the original prayer, debt or sin?

 

[Khalfan]

did you read? st Jerome translated the original texts. Did you check his translation to see if it is a different Bible or not? maybe you will find that Jesus was not crucified, was not raised, is not God ecc? go check

There was only 3 apocrypha in his Bible. Since when it became 7? on what basis?

 

[inJESUS]

There was only 3 apocrypha in his Bible. Since when it became 7? on what basis?

OT books are irrelevant now. Did you check his translation to see if it is a different Bible? or will you pick and choose as well from the quotation you provided?