Muslims Opinion About This ?

[Sister_Amy]

It’s not very authentic, regardless of how it tastes.

It wasn’t a rhetorical request, either. You see, I’ve never once heard a scholar of Islam talk about 72 virgins but it seems to come up here a lot. So if you know so much more than me, then educate me. Or if you have no proof, or your proof is weak (which is all I see, is weak proofs), then maybe the whole issue should just be dropped? Unless you want to continue claiming Muslims believe something that they don’t.

Madrasa, by the way, is simply the word for “school” in Arabic.

 

[trustme80]

It’s not very authentic, regardless of how it tastes.

It wasn’t a rhetorical request, either. You see, I’ve never once heard a scholar of Islam talk about 72 virgins but it seems to come up here a lot. So if you know so much more than me, then educate me. Or if you have no proof, or your proof is weak (which is all I see, is weak proofs), then maybe the whole issue should just be dropped? Unless you want to continue claiming Muslims believe something that they don’t.

The undeniable truth WITH PROOF is that a man will have companions of virgins in heaven.
Why virgins ?
Allah knows best

Here’s one of 15+, in case you missed reading my post :

فَجَعَلْنَاهُنَّ أَبْكَاراً​

faja’alnaahunna abkaaraan
[56:36] Then We have made them virgins,

عُرُباً أَتْرَاباً
​

'uruban atraabaan
[56:37] Loving, equals in age,

لِّأَصْحَابِ الْيَمِينِ​

li-ash-haabi alyamiini
[56:38] For the sake of the companions of the right hand

The rest of the Sura is also some detailed descriptions of heaven.

72 of them?
Several hadiths mentions about those 72 virgin companions, but in the Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim the numbers are not mentioned.
But there’s many, because 2 among them will become wives.
You’ve never heard of it, maybe they are hiding it from you.

 

[Angelos]

The undeniable truth WITH PROOF is that a man will have companions of virgins in heaven.
Why virgins ?
Allah knows best

Here’s one of 15+, in case you missed reading my post :

فَجَعَلْنَاهُنَّ أَبْكَاراً​

faja’alnaahunna abkaaraan
[56:36] Then We have made them virgins,

عُرُباً أَتْرَاباً
​

'uruban atraabaan
[56:37] Loving, equals in age,

لِّأَصْحَابِ الْيَمِينِ​

li-ash-haabi alyamiini
[56:38] For the sake of the companions of the right hand

The rest of the Sura is also some detailed descriptions of heaven.

72 of them?
Several hadiths mentions about those 72 virgin companions, but in the Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim the numbers are not mentioned.
But there’s many, because 2 among them will become wives.
You’ve never heard of it, maybe they are hiding it from you.

Sister Amy will not be convinced because she simply chooses to deny the authentic hadiths that undermine her assertions. Her approach to this issue is rather arbitrary and inconsistent.

 

[Sam_777]

Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Command your children to pray when they become seven years old, and beat them for it (prayer) when they become ten years old; and arrange their beds (to sleep) separately.

Hi Vickie ,

I always read your posts, and it seems you have a very good knowledge of Islam, can you share with us (if possible) your religious background.
Also do you know if “Wafa Sulatan” (since you always quoting her) is a secular women or a Christian?

 

[Sam_777]

Sister Amy,

Why don’t you print those two Arabic hadiths and show them to your Shaikh!, I think you’ve mentioned before he is an Arabic cleric :idea:.

However, the hadiths in both references classified as “Marfu”, you can verify that by going to the same site in my original post, and in the Arabic interface go further down to the classifications of hadith, you will find:

• Mutawater.
• Marfu.
• Maqtu.
• Mauquf.

Set that to “Musnad Ahmed” or “Sunan Altermizy”, and click on “Marfu”, the number of that hadith in Musnad Ahmed for “Marfu” is “10115”, and “2421” in Sunan Altermizy.
I have done the search for you, and these are the links:
hadith.al-islam.com/Fhares/Fhares.asp?Doc=6&Tag=2&st=10100&IMAGE.x=36&IMAGE.y=9
hadith.al-islam.com/Fhares/Fhares.asp?Doc=2&Tag=2&st=2420&IMAGE.x=42&IMAGE.y=4

 

[cathopologist]

Actually, it’s not at all like saying that. If you were to go to a madrasa and actually study Islam with a sheikh, you would learn something, I’d hope, about the science of hadith. In fact, Muslims (unlike Catholics or any Christians for that matter) rigorously examine each and every single narration including its chain (and we might have one saying with many chains, each is investigated), to determine its authenticity and the validity of each and every transmitter. That is a standard in Islam, and it’s all I’m asking you for–something which has passed that test. If you can’t find something which has passed, then your position simply lacks validity.

Islam has no central authority and no central teaching. Rigorous examinations of its texts mean nothing if every Muslim is free to interpret the Qur’an, Hadiths and Sira as they deem fit; therein lies the problem. Every ‘Muslim scholar’ will interpret the doctrines of the submission of women, suicide bombing, kufrs, jihad, ijtihad differently. When their inconsistent, contradicting teachings are spotted, the mainstream media, political entities and academic sympathizers are quick to step in to offer an explanation of ‘what they really meant’ - which really translates to, ‘don’t step on the wrong foot’.

The Qur’an is in Arabic, and it has not been changed. You may read it for yourself in the original if you find your translation to be “watered down.”

I don’t know if you know this, but i remember watching the news a few years ago; a scholar from the university of Cairo was labeled an ‘apostate’ for suggesting the Qur’an a document written by humans. He did not say ‘God inspired’, he mentioned humans.

As for the usual Islamic claim of the Qur’an, let me just quote Gerd Rüdiger Puin’s (German scholar and the world’s foremost authority on Qur’anic paleography) own words**:
**[ That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur’an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not—there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on.

My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur’an claims for itself that it is ‘mubeen,’ or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn’t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur’anic text is just incomprehensible.

This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur’an is not comprehensible, if it can’t even be understood in Arabic, then it’s not translatable into any language.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerd_Puin#Sana.27a_Qur.27an_find)

Who am I calling a liar? I don’t think I am calling anyone a liar–forgive me if I’ve done that, but I promise you that was not my intent.

Nor am I attacking anyone, or attacking the truth as you say.

What I am asking for is simple authentic proof of a particular statement which non-Muslims are attributing to Islam. It’s just a request. If that authentic proof exists, then you ought to be able to find it and present it to me, right? And convince me of my own religion perhaps?

But nobody is bringing me that authentic proof–so you say I’m calling people liars and attacking the truth? But I’m not doing that.

I’m asking for authentic proof, and nobody is delivering it.

If you can’t bring authentic proof, then all I suggest is that you simply file this erroneous claim about Islam under the “weak and fabricated” category in your mind and stop using it to defame Islam when it’s clearly pretty far off the mark. But only if you can’t bring authentic proof.

I’m still waiting…

The proof has been delivered. ‘Weak’ or not, it stands out in Islamic teaching. Nobody can force the truth down your throat. If you refuse to accept it, that’s your choice and you can continue denying it as much as you want.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Cathopologist–that was by far the most amusing response to my question.

To say that Islam doesn’t have any central teachings at all, therefore you can claim Islam teaches whatever you want it to?

I think I made my point. There is no authentic proof.

And for Sam–I actually did ask my shaykh about this discussion. His answer surprised me. And also confirmed for me why I am proud to be a Muslim and why I love Islam as much as I do.

 

[cathopologist]

Cathopologist–that was by far the most amusing response to my question.

To say that Islam doesn’t have any central teachings at all, therefore you can claim Islam teaches whatever you want it to?

I think I made my point. There is no authentic proof.

And for Sam–I actually did ask my shaykh about this discussion. His answer surprised me. And also confirmed for me why I am proud to be a Muslim and why I love Islam as much as I do.

Religious violence will be rampant when a religion has no equivalent of the pope, bishops, presbyters or magisterium to ensure accuracy in its interpretations of its holy texts. Mullahs, Imams and Sheikhs are very often the ones guilty of exploiting this anarchaic freedom found in Islam. Which is why you see these crazed Islamists preach hatred in the name of God.

The authentic sources posted by several people, some of whom were former Muslims themselves have overshadowed your refusal to recognize or acknowledge the facts.

However, it is your right to continue rejecting them and i do hope you find peace with your denial.

 

[R_not]

Sam, when I am asking for an authentic hadith, I don’t mean that it is authentically from a “Sunni book” like the books of Imam Ahmad or At-Tirmidhi. What you need to do is prove that those hadiths are not weak or fabricated.

It really doesn’t matter what source that is used - if a muslim doesn’t want to acknowledge what islam is about and even if we present them with the violence in their own texts - they will continue to say that we do not have the ‘authentic’ translation or whatever. It is their own muslims that translated these hadiths.

All we need to do is go as far that is sane and reasonable. They have been told so many times about things that concern Christianity and the bible and they won’t listen and they won’t even prove their own assertions that the Bible is corrupted! (NOT using the illiterate pagan’s - mohammed - koran and hadiths)

 

[TomaszA]

I often disagreed with Pope John Paul II’s kissing of the Qur’an, however I’m realizing he was a saintly human being and I, being nothing more than a commoner, can’t always understand the things saints do.

Although the Qur’an rejects certain Christian truths and ignores others, it contains certain doctrines that really are worthy of our respect and honor. Muhammad believed in Jesus’ Virgin Birth, which is rather shocking considering he rejects the more believable Crucifixion. The Virgin Birth is certainly to be extolled and it’s something we can agree with Muslims, it also may be God’s way of reaching out to Muslims through their own book.

 

[R_not]

I often disagreed with Pope John Paul II’s kissing of the Qur’an, however I’m realizing he was a saintly human being and I, being nothing more than a commoner, can’t always understand the things saints do.

Although the Qur’an rejects certain Christian truths and ignores others, it contains certain doctrines that really are worthy of our respect and honor. Muhammad believed in Jesus’ Virgin Birth, which is rather shocking considering he rejects the more believable Crucifixion. The Virgin Birth is certainly to be extolled and it’s something we can agree with Muslims, it also may be God’s way of reaching out to Muslims through their own book.

good luck. You should go back and read some of the threads that are related to islam - and you will find that it might be easier to find a Leprechaun and get that pot of gold he hides!

 

[Sister_Amy]

Religious violence will be rampant when a religion has no equivalent of the pope, bishops, presbyters or magisterium to ensure accuracy in its interpretations of its holy texts. Mullahs, Imams and Sheikhs are very often the ones guilty of exploiting this anarchaic freedom found in Islam. Which is why you see these crazed Islamists preach hatred in the name of God.

The authentic sources posted by several people, some of whom were former Muslims themselves have overshadowed your refusal to recognize or acknowledge the facts.

However, it is your right to continue rejecting them and i do hope you find peace with your denial.

Some of whom were former Muslims? If they used to be former Muslims, what are they now?

As I have already mentioned, the sources which were quoted previously do not qualify as authentic proof. I acknowledge that they posted stuff. Some even posted hadith. But they did not post authentic hadith. See the problem? Maybe you don’t… but that’s not my concern.

All of it however has nothing at all to do with religious violence, so I’m not sure why you brought that up in the first place.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Here is a question…

If you believe the hadith about 72 somethings then

do you believe this one?

On the authority of Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said:

Allah will say to the inhabitant of Paradise: O inhabitants of Paradise!

They will say: **O our Lord, we present ourselves and are at Your pleasure, and goodness rests in Your hands. **

Then He will say: Are you contented?

And they will say: And how should we not be contented, O Lord, when You have given to us that which You have given to no one else of Your creation?

Then He will say: Would not like Me to give you something better than that?

And they will say: O Lord and what thing is better than that?

And He will say: **I shall cause My favour to descend upon you and thereafter shall never be displeased with you. **

It was related by al-Bukhari (also by Muslim and at-Tirmidhi).

(This, for example, is an authentic hadith.)

 

[Booklover]

Here is a question…

If you believe the hadith about 72 somethings then

do you believe this one?

On the authority of Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said:

Allah will say to the inhabitant of Paradise: O inhabitants of Paradise!

They will say: **O our Lord, we present ourselves and are at Your pleasure, and goodness rests in Your hands. **

Then He will say: Are you contented?

And they will say: And how should we not be contented, O Lord, when You have given to us that which You have given to no one else of Your creation?

Then He will say: Would not like Me to give you something better than that?

And they will say: O Lord and what thing is better than that?

And He will say: **I shall cause My favour to descend upon you and thereafter shall never be displeased with you. **

It was related by al-Bukhari (also by Muslim and at-Tirmidhi).

(This, for example, is an authentic hadith.)

Why is that one authentic and the others not? If it sounds good to you it’s okay and if it’s rather embarrasing, it’s not? You’re not making any sense. All you do is keep living in denial.

Is Islamqa.com reliable enough for you? Here’s what they have to say on the subject.


Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

Why is that one authentic and the others not? If it sounds good to you it’s okay and if it’s rather embarrasing, it’s not? You’re not making any sense. All you do is keep living in denial.

Is Islamqa.com reliable enough for you? Here’s what they have to say on the subject.


Vickie

Don’t worry about me, just worry about you.

 

[Booklover]

Hi Vickie ,

I always read your posts, and it seems you have a very good knowledge of Islam, can you share with us (if possible) your religious background.
Also do you know if “Wafa Sulatan” (since you always quoting her) is a secular women or a Christian?

Hi Sam! I always enjoy your postings as well! I’m a cradle Catholic from Havana, Cuba, who left my homeland to get away from Communism. I tell you one thing though, if I had to choose between living under communism or Islam, as much as I loathe communism, I’d choose it over Islam without thinking twice.

Wafa Sultan was born to a Sunni family in Damascus, Syria. She’s a psychiatrist and lives in Los Angeles. Here’s more on from Wikipedia.

In the same Time Magazine interview, Sultan conflictingly described herself as a Muslim who does not adhere to Islam: “I even don’t believe in Islam, but I am a Muslim.”[9] However, in a recent conference associated with the controversial conservative writer David Horowitz, Wafa Sultan expressed her views unequivocally stating:
““I have decided to fight Islam; please pay attention to my statement; to fight Islam, not the political Islam, not the militant Islam, not the radical Islam, not the Wahhabi Islam, but Islam itself…Islam has never been misunderstood, Islam is the problem…(Muslims) have to realize that they have only two choices: to change or to be crushed.”[11]

”

 

[Booklover]

Don’t worry about me, just worry about you.

I expected better from you than this silly statement! Did you bother to read what was stated in Islamqa, or are you still in denial mode?

Here’s a portion:

The mufassireen said concerning the phrase “busy in joyful things” (Yaa-Seen 36:55 – interpretation of the meaning):
‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood and Ibn ‘Abbaas (mayAllaah be pleased with them both), and Sa’eed ibn al-Musayyib, ‘Ikrimah, al-Hasan, Qutaadah, al-A’mash, Sulaymaan al-Taymi and al-Oozaa’i said concerning the aayaah (interpretation of the meaning),
“Verily, the dwellers of Paradise, that Day, will be busy in joyful things” [Yaa-Seen 36:55]
they said, (it means) they will be busy deflowering virgins. Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said, according to a report narrated from him, that “busy in joyful things” means listening to stringed instruments. Abu Haatim said: he misheard the phrase iftidaad al-abkaar (deflowering virgins) and thought it was samaa’ al-awtaar (listening to stringed instruments). In fact the correct phrase is iftidaad al-abkaar (deflowering virgins). (Ibn Katheer, 3/564)

With regard to children, the scholars differed as to whether children would be born as a result of this intercourse or not. Some said that there would be children if the man wants them, but the pregnancy and birth would take just one hour. Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri (may Allaah be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If the believer wants a child in Paradise, the pregnancy and delivery will take only an hour, then the child will be the age that the man wants.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, no. 2487; al-Daarimi, no. 2712; Ahmad, no. 11339; Ibn Maajah, no. 4329). And Allaah knows best.
We ask Allaah to admit us to Paradise and to keep us far away from the Fire. May He bless us with the highest Firdaws, for He is the One Who is Able to do that. Praise be to Allaah the Lord of the Worlds.

Islam Q&A

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

No Vickie, I don’t read your posts.

I thought you knew that…

 

[Booklover]

No Vickie, I don’t read your posts.

I thought you knew that…

Then why did you reply to it?? What are you afraid of? Why are you so reluctant to read anything not complimentary to Islam? I even quoted from an authentic Islamic website and you still refuse to answer.

Vickie

 

[cathopologist]

Some of whom were former Muslims? If they used to be former Muslims, what are they now?

Catholics, Orthodox.

As I have already mentioned, the sources which were quoted previously do not qualify as authentic proof. I acknowledge that they posted stuff. Some even posted hadith. But they did not post authentic hadith. See the problem? Maybe you don’t… but that’s not my concern.

You’re quite a clown sometimes. The Hadiths posted are authentic and are held in high esteem by millions of Muslims worldwide. A Hadith is always non-authentic when the Hadith shows clear signs of contradictions of the Sira. Classic taqiyya. Ironically, it was a Muslim who told me how he employs taqiyya to convert non-Muslims.

All of it however has nothing at all to do with religious violence, so I’m not sure why you brought that up in the first place.

Actually it does. As i said, Islam is anarchic and anyone is free to interpret its scriptures as he/she pleases. All the sex, violence and hate and condoned lying is found in your religious texts. That is what makes Islam stand out - even monolatrists, pantheists and panentheists have better moral teachings.