Muslims or anyone please help un-confuse me

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Hahaha Gary----I’m not doing very well spreading the Good News among Islam but I am loving this conversation because it is so interesting.

I am still not understand what god Graham believes is Allah. Who is he and what is his history? Actually, non-of his followers will engage me in this question. There may not be an answer that I could accept anyway since I believe in only one God.

Thank you for posting the links.
 
I am still not understand what god Graham believes is Allah. Who is he and what is his history? Actually, non-of his followers will engage me in this question. There may not be an answer that I could accept anyway since I believe in only one God.
I’m not really sure I understand what you find so hard to accept. Do you really think that because Billy Graham would not equate the Muslim Allah with the Christian God that he believes in more than one God?

That is a weird way to look at it. The exact opposite is taking place. Billy Graham refuses to equate the Muslim Allah with the Christian God because he believes there really is only one God. This God is revealed in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

To answer your first question, I would assume that Graham would believe that the Muslim Allah is not a god at all. The Muslim Allah is a counterfeit god created to deceive the hearts and minds of men.

“Who is he and what is his history?” He was either made up by Muhammad or Muhammad was deceived by a demon portraying the Angel Gabriel, in which case the Muslim Allah was made up by Satan.
 
Well, aside from a point of ambiguous. How you all doing with spreading the Good News among Islam? 🙂
I don’t know any Muslims, but if I ever do, I’d think it be hard to spread the Good News while simultaneously validating their religion as just a slightly different version of my own religion.
 
I don’t know any Muslims, but if I ever do, I’d think it be hard to spread the Good News while simultaneously validating their religion as just a slightly different version of my own religion.
Well for example, do you suppose you would fair better in conversation on the path with the top or bottom quote?
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
or
On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly.
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opusdeialert.com%2Fst-thomas-aquinas-against-mohammed.htm&ei=6hSMVMLbB8KXNoa-gNAE&usg=AFQjCNEhHLEUdxMKcLyj695zvOCg5gFZLA

You’ll notice as you chit-chat with these people they love to talk about religion and politics, and there’s an amount of civility which is required as with anyone else, as I doubt anyone would deny these are dedicated peoples by large. I don’t think the second paragraph by Aquinas is the way to proceed in a conversation, I can’t see that working out well imho. As said; “they search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near”. After all. we are all out here in the valley of the shadow, tis written. And those seven deadly sins and the flesh, all seem to have this issue.

We should treat every mothers son fair no? 🙂
 
Actually, non-of his followers will engage me in this question. There may not be an answer that I could accept anyway since I believe in only one God.

Thank you for posting the links.
Right, Islam will tell you by large they don’t worship the same God either. But there is only one God, its hardly a profitable path to start with triumphant diametrically opposed affirmations in which both claim the others are infidels and partake in demonic worship? Sounds like a rather ignorant conversation imho.
 
I’m not really sure I understand what you find so hard to accept. Do you really think that because Billy Graham would not equate the Muslim Allah with the Christian God that he believes in more than one God?

That is a weird way to look at it. The exact opposite is taking place. Billy Graham refuses to equate the Muslim Allah with the Christian God because he believes there really is only one God. This God is revealed in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

To answer your first question, I would assume that Graham would believe that the Muslim Allah is not a god at all. The Muslim Allah is a counterfeit god created to deceive the hearts and minds of men.

“Who is he and what is his history?” He was either made up by Muhammad or Muhammad was deceived by a demon portraying the Angel Gabriel, in which case the Muslim Allah was made up by Satan.
Nothing new here though. I could read Aquinas who articulated on Islam before any of todays pulpit critics existed. They are talkers and critics who’s sole intention is to critique the Church of which no salvation exits outside for those who are not ignorant? So in essence in my reading this CCC, we are speaking about all ignorant peoples? In other words the Church who isn’t ignorant in this regard is operating the rudder on the Ark of which no salvation exits outside of. So its not the ignorant talking to the ignorant?

Lots of critics who sow the seed of violence in their words, we should aspire to be better than Saladin and the Assassins. Just saying.
 
"I’m not really sure I understand what you find so hard to accept. Do you really think that because Billy Graham would not equate the Muslim Allah with the Christian God that he believes in more than one God?

That is a weird way to look at it. The exact opposite is taking place. Billy Graham refuses to equate the Muslim Allah with the Christian God because he believes there really is only one God. This God is revealed in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

Well he must just as you must. You reject the Catholic teachings on if we worship the same God and he also rejects that. Sooooo------

There is only one God litwin and He is the creator of all.
 
"I’m not really sure I understand what you find so hard to accept. Do you really think that because Billy Graham would not equate the Muslim Allah with the Christian God that he believes in more than one God?

That is a weird way to look at it. The exact opposite is taking place. Billy Graham refuses to equate the Muslim Allah with the Christian God because he believes there really is only one God. This God is revealed in Scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."

Well he must just as you must. You reject the Catholic teachings on if we worship the same God and he also rejects that. Sooooo------
Maybe I’m not understanding you. Are you saying that if a Christian:

A) Believes there is only one God – Father, Son, and Holy Spirit – who is revealed in the Old and New Testaments

and

B.1) Believes that Muslims do not worship this God revealed in Holy Scripture

but

B.2) Believes that Muslims instead worship a false god, either made up by the human imagination or created under the influence of Satan

that

C) These Christians believe in more than one god (i.e. the Biblical God and the god Muslim’s worship)

That is absurd. Obviously, a person who believes that:

D) There is one God – the God revealed in the Bible

and

E) That the Muslim god is false

then

F) There is only one God. Not two.

I’m sorry, but 1 does not equal 2 here.
There is only one God litwin and He is the creator of all.
Yes, there is one God who has revealed who he is in Holy Scripture. Those who worship something or someone else (whether another monotheistic god not found in Holy Scripture, a polytheistic pantheon as the Greeks did, or nature and ancestor spirits as many traditional religions are want to do) are not worshiping gods at all but fictions of their own minds or counterfeits perpetrated by demons.

There is one God. All others are false.
 
Benjohnson: You say the Lutherans tend to believe the 2nd and you are Lutheran. If you agree with the second thought can you then tell me what god they do worship. Hope that made sense. LOL
Sorry for the delay - it’s a good question!

The typical Lutheran response is a bit nuanced - we tend to not doubt the sincerity of the claims that Muslims make, but we would never trust their confession of faith about as being equal to the Christian profession in the creeds.

Personally, I think they worship an ersatz god made in their own image and that there is no ‘equivalency.’

I pray God will recognize the sincerity of the Muslim struggle to accept God’s revelation - just as I too sometimes fall short of full faith.
 
I agree with him-- we believe in two different Gods. One consists of three Persons, the other consists of one single Person. The Trinity is, according to muslims, a misunderstanding of the Godhead that was never taught by any of the prophets. The Trinity is at the heart of Christianity; take out the Trinity and you have no Christianity (at least not one that’s orthodox).
 
So drac, Itwin and Billy Graham agree. Thats called progress, wonder how it proceeds from there? 🙂
 
I agree with him-- we believe in two different Gods. One consists of three Persons, the other consists of one single Person. The Trinity is, according to muslims,** a misunderstanding of the Godhead that was never taught by any of the prophets.** The Trinity is at the heart of Christianity; take out the Trinity and you have no Christianity (at least not one that’s orthodox).
Drac. Are you saying Muslims believe God is a Person?

Pls give me the Quranic verse that says God is a single Person. That means defining the term “Person”.

Tks.

Meanwhile, I think the JWs believe in the bolded part too. :hmmm:

MJ
 
Drac. Are you saying Muslims believe God is a Person?

Pls give me the Quranic verse that says God is a single Person. That means defining the term “Person”.

Tks.

MJ
Perhaps he can come teach us the traditional teachings of the miraculous birth of Jesus. On a side note thats a pretty hard conversation to have while implicitly calling each other devil worshipers? 🙂
 
The Catechism is right, though not in all circumstances, because the situation can be more complicated.

As a foundation, there are things within the koran which are identifiably demonic. When Muhammad received his inspiration from who he called the angel Gabriel, the angel didn’t enter in with peace as they do throughout scripture saying “be not afraid”. Instead, in Muhammad encounter the angel strangled him. According to Ibn Ishaq’s biography of Muhammad (who died 761–770 AD). Muhammad himself was terrified, thought himself that he was possessed and desired to commit suicide.

This is just one example. But by all objective measures, Muhammad was possessed.

What comes into affect are really two things:
  1. There are people who try to worship the One True God, in the amount that they know of Him. Though they happen to find themselves following Islam.
This is honest error or sometimes invincible ignorance. These people worship the One True God despite Islam instead of because of Islam. If they found a greater knowledge of God they would follow it willingly. They don’t necessarily have any fault in that state and the Catechism quote applies here.
  1. There are people who fully embrace Islamic teaching who honestly don’t care for worshipping the True God, but only what Islam calls god. If they found a greater knowledge of the One True God they would deny Him, because their intention is to follow the god of Islam, which many have deduced to be satan.
So it is really both/and. The Catechism can’t be said to be wrong. It is right where it applies, which is the ideal situation we all hope for.

I hope this helps.
 
Drac. Are you saying Muslims believe God is a Person?

Pls give me the Quranic verse that says God is a single Person. That means defining the term “Person”.

Tks.

Meanwhile, I think the JWs believe in the bolded part too. :hmmm:

MJ
I used the word “person” as a theological term. He’s not a person in the sense that I’m a person. The best example of Tawheed would be in surah 112, where it says:

Say: ‘He is Allah, the One and Only’ Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him”. We’re strict unitarians-- Jehovah’s Witnesses are not. They believe in two divine Persons (Michael and Jehovah). So, according to JWs, God does beget (He creates something in His own likeness). It’s totally different.
 
I used the word “person” as a theological term. He’s not a person in the sense that I’m a person. The best example of Tawheed would be in surah 112, where it says:

Say: ‘He is Allah, the One and Only’ Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him”.
OK so I’m following to this point, but now what does scripture say on this seemingly supernatural birth by Mary of Jesus? How is this understood? 🙂
 
I used the word “person” as a theological term. He’s not a person in the sense that I’m a person.
I understand that Drac.

What I am asking is why you chose God as a single Person (yes the Theology) when the interpretation of the word “person” comes from Latin “persona” to explain (and there is a complete consistent study and defence of) the Theology of the Three Persons in One God (of one substance One God, existing in and of Himself), when it was attacked by heretics since 70 A.D.

So aren’t you accepting one thing then rejecting the Theology?
The best example of Tawheed would be in surah 112, where it says:
*Say: ‘He is Allah, the One and Only’ Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
*
Yes, we agree here. Absolute and existing in Himself (see my bolded part above).
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
As far as Jesus the Son is concerned (since the Quranic verse is hinting about the Begotten and Begetting) we of the Universal Church (Catholic) do not divide God nor proclaim He “needs” any assistance. He doesn’t!

But Unfortunately, Drac it appears the Quran does not dwelve into the orthodoxy of Christian teaching and deposit of Faith (handing down of Jesus’ work of Redemption) but simply rejecting because it says so?

We have been taught and believe that Jesus is God’s Word come down to earth, **through the Holy Spirit **by birth in the natural way (from a woman thus made flesh) to reveal Himself (God) to man, God’s Love for his greatest Creation.
We’re strict unitarians-- Jehovah’s Witnesses are not. They believe in two divine Persons (Michael and Jehovah). So, according to JWs, God does
beget (He creates something in His own likeness). It’s totally different.

Ok fair enough. 👍

MJ
 
Right, Islam will tell you by large they don’t worship the same God either. But there is only one God, its hardly a profitable path to start with triumphant diametrically opposed affirmations in which both claim the others are infidels and partake in demonic worship? Sounds like a rather ignorant conversation imho.
Well said,sir. I agree.

What would Jesus counsel - “Come, let us accuse and condemn one another” or “Come, let us reason together”?

The apostle Paul tried to find common ground with those he sought to evangelize. It worked well for him. We should do the same.

Paul
 
I have never met or even talked to any Muslims who say that Christians believe in the same God as Muslims do. I do not believe that, either, and this is not a new stance for either Muslims or Christians. Perhaps it is a new stance for Catholics in particular, but I don’t anything about that particularly.

In Arabic and in Coptic we say “In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, the one God”. This tells the Muslims and everybody else that our God is the one (only) God, but they don’t believe it because they cannot believe in the Holy Trinity and still be Muslims. It is blasphemy to them, just like some things they say about God is blasphemy to us (that God does not beget – in surat Al Ikhlas).

I don’t know why or if this is unpopular in the west, but nobody who knows Islam or Christianity in the Middle East or Africa thinks it is strange. We are not the same religion. It doesn’t mean that they are wrong about everything, but they are not right about this. And they say the same thing about us, too. It’s in their religion to say this.
 
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