Muslims or anyone please help un-confuse me

[MartinJordan]

The apostle Paul tried to find common ground with those he sought to evangelize. It worked well for him. We should do the same.

Paul

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

I have never met or even talked to any Muslims who say that Christians believe in the same God as Muslims do.

I’ve lived in a Muslim country before and theyve never told me they believe in a different God than ours. Infact theyve never complained that when we pray the Our Father, He is not God Almighty.

I do not believe that, either, and this is not a new stance for either Muslims or Christians. Perhaps it is a new stance for Catholics in particular, but I don’t anything about that particularly.

As a Catholic, I take it as Charity and to give the dignity to Muslims who don’t believe in Jesus as God, because it is not their fault to be brought up in their belief. And I believe when they say they worship God. It is the same God. The One Divine Essence (granted they may not understand or be familiar in how we explain the term Essence) as it is not explored in the Quran I think. Atleast we can dialogue with them as we are still one human family under God. Plus we’re called to Love and we MUST show it. Carry our Crosses too.

In Arabic and in Coptic we say “In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, the one God”. This tells the Muslims and everybody else that our God is the one (only) God, but they don’t believe it because they cannot believe in the Holy Trinity and still be Muslims. It is blasphemy to them, just like some things they say about God is blasphemy to us (that God does not beget – in surat Al Ikhlas).

If one wants to be strict and unbending and refuse to dialogue, I can see that blasphemy will certainly come out of our lips and theirs. But it deosn’t have to be.

I don’t know why or if this is unpopular in the west, but nobody who knows Islam or Christianity in the Middle East or Africa thinks it is strange. We are not the same religion. It doesn’t mean that they are wrong about everything, but they are not right about this. And they say the same thing about us, too. It’s in their religion to say this.

Then there goes the dialogue.

MJ

 

[drac16]

OK so I’m following to this point, but now what does scripture say on this seemingly supernatural birth by Mary of Jesus? How is this understood?

We muslims believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to her son, Jesus.

"*Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee-- chosen thee above the women of all nations. Behold! the angels said: 'O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity.

And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous. She said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?’ He said: 'Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is! And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel*" (Qur’an, surah 3:42, 45-48)

So, as you can see above, Jesus is given a few different titles. The Messiah [Christ] and A Word from Allah. He’s similar to Adam because he, like Jesus, had no father. Allah spoke both Adam and Jesus into existance. " The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be!’. And he was" (surah 3:59). Also, important to note, Jesus is sometimes called “the son of Mary” in the Qur’an. That title is atypical of how the arabic language is used in Qur’anic revelation. Every other man is known as the son of his father (i.e. Isaac the son of Abraham or Joseph the son of Jacob). That further proves the virgin birth; had Jesus been born through natural means, he would’ve been known as ‘Ibn Yusuf’; ’
the son of Joseph’.

The fact that he’s only identified as ‘the son of Mary’ is interesting. What’s more, you’ll never find muslims refer to the Qur’an as “the Word of God”. The Word of God exists, but it is a man-- not a book. Jesus is the Word of God. The Qur’an is not a Jewish man who was born of a virgin.

 

[Efnouti_Nai_Nan]

Martin Jordan,

I’m afraid I don’t know what you mean by “the dialogue”. We learn these things by talking, or dialogue, with Muslims right? Maybe the Muslims you met are more polite, but I meant to say that it is not uncommon for Muslims to say that they don’t worship the same God as Christians, since they think that by us saying “in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit”, we are making up other gods besides Allah, but they have only Allah. Maybe this is something where one side will say one thing, and only if you press the other side will he say that he disagrees. Muslims would probably prefer to say that we’re close to them too,so that they can convert us to Islam.

Muslims have also said to me “We believe in Jesus, the son of Mary and Messiah, too”, but if you look at it closer there’s more to it than that.

 

[drac16]

I understand that Drac.

What I am asking is why you chose God as a single Person (yes the Theology) when the interpretation of the word “person” comes from Latin “persona” to explain (and there is a complete consistent study and defence of) the Theology of the Three Persons in One God (of one substance One God, existing in and of Himself), when it was attacked by heretics since 70 A.D.

So aren’t you accepting one thing then rejecting the Theology?

Really? semantics?

Look, the word “Saturday” is derived from the word “Saturn”. When I say “I love Saturday”, that has nothing to do with worshiping the roman God, Saturn. If I can’t use a word [person] that I think anyone on this forum could understand, I don’t know what you want from me.

IYes, we agree here. Absolute and existing in Himself (see my bolded part above).

As far as Jesus the Son is concerned (since the Quranic verse is hinting about the Begotten and Begetting) we of the Universal Church (Catholic) do not divide God nor proclaim He “needs” any assistance. He doesn’t!

But Unfortunately, Drac it appears the Quran does not dwelve into the orthodoxy of Christian teaching and deposit of Faith (handing down of Jesus’ work of Redemption) but simply rejecting because it says so?

We have been taught and believe that Jesus is God’s Word come down to earth, **through the Holy Spirit **by birth in the natural way (from a woman thus made flesh) to reveal Himself (God) to man, God’s Love for his greatest Creation.

Ok fair enough.

MJ

You do divide the Godhead up into three beings. They can’t all be self-sufficient, because one of the Persons died on a cross (according to you). From what I can tell, the idea that Jesus needed no assistance and was in control at all times is a concept of Paul, the author of Hebrews and John’s Gospel. John must’ve been embaressed by the episode in the garden of Gethsemane, so he replaced it with a long prayer (the high priestly prayer). Take a look:

“And they went to a place called Gethsemane. And he said to his disciples, ‘Sit here while I pray’. And he took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled. And he said to them, ‘My soul is very sorrowful, even to death. Remain here and watch.’ And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, 'Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will” (Mark 14:32-36)

Does that sound like God praying to you?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Except for linguistics what we are saying isn’t much different.

I used the word “person” as a theological term. He’s not a person in the sense that I’m a person. The best example of Tawheed would be in surah 112, where it says:

“Say: ‘He is Allah, the One and Only’ Allah, the Eternal, Absolute. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him”.

This above and this below are compatible

We muslims believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to her son, Jesus.

"Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee-- chosen thee above the women of all nations. Behold! the angels said: 'O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity.

And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous. She said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?’ He said: 'Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is! And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel" (Qur’an, surah 3:42, 45-48)

So, as you can see above, Jesus is given a few different titles. The Messiah [Christ] and A Word from Allah. He’s similar to Adam because he, like Jesus, had no father. Allah spoke both Adam and Jesus into existance. " The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be!’. And he was" (surah 3:59). Also, important to note, Jesus is sometimes called “the son of Mary” in the Qur’an. That title is atypical of how the arabic language is used in Qur’anic revelation. Every other man is known as the son of his father (i.e. Isaac the son of Abraham or Joseph the son of Jacob). That further proves the virgin birth; had Jesus been born through natural means, he would’ve been known as ‘Ibn Yusuf’; ’
the son of Joseph’.

The fact that he’s only identified as ‘the son of Mary’ is interesting. What’s more, you’ll never find muslims refer to the Qur’an as “the Word of God”. The Word of God exists, but it is a man-- not a book. Jesus is the Word of God. The Qur’an is not a Jewish man who was born of a virgin.

Sounds good, I’ll have to think about it a bit.

 

[MartinJordan]

Really? semantics?

Look, the word “Saturday” is derived from the word “Saturn”. When I say “I love Saturday”, that has nothing to do with worshiping the roman God, Saturn. If I can’t use a word [person] that I think anyone on this forum could understand, I don’t know what you want from me.

It not about semantics, but what has been prayed and taught and passed down with love. The love of God.

What do I want from you? Is dialogue, in peace and understanding. Why don’t you explain what Muslims understand about what Person means? If you reject the Persons of God, make it clear why.

You do divide the Godhead up into three beings. They can’t all be self-sufficient, because one of the Persons died on a cross (according to you). From what I can tell, the idea that Jesus needed no assistance and was in control at all times is a concept of Paul, the author of Hebrews and John’s Gospel. John must’ve been embaressed by the episode in the garden of Gethsemane, so he replaced it with a long prayer (the high priestly prayer). Take a look:

“And they went to a place called Gethsemane. And he said to his disciples, ‘Sit here while I pray’. And he took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled. And he said to them, ‘My soul is very sorrowful, even to death. Remain here and watch.’ And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, 'Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will” (Mark 14:32-36)

Does that sound like God praying to you?

Ive always admired your usual focus on MuslimQuranic scripture and not mixing it with the Biblical verses. Why did you do it now?

How can you insist the above Biblical verses divide God?

Did you not except a defense of Christian beliefs here?

MJ

 

[drac16]

Right, like you ever admired me.

I think you’re hoping I’m unaware of the things you people post about my religion and how it’s all potential terrorism and misogyny. I’ve seen you participate in it, so don’t you dare try to weasel out of it. That’s not the point, though.

There can be no discussion as long as you claim a monopoly on a word and do not use simple reading skills.

 

[MartinJordan]

Right, like you ever admired me.

I think you’re hoping I’m unaware of the things you people post about my religion and how it’s all potential terrorism and misogyny. I’ve seen you participate in it, so don’t you dare try to weasel out of it. That’s not the point, though.

There can be no discussion as long as you claim a monopoly on a word and do not use simple reading skills.

“Person” is a word created to help explain the Trinity. It is only later used in the English language for other connections. You have to face that fact.

That said, I don’t know how the discussion came from A New Testament verse to terrorism.

Oh yes, I admired you because you’ve always stuck to Quran or various Muslim teachings and did not join the other Muslims who used our Bible for proof texts…but now. Oh well.

Peace be with you Drac regardless. I mean that.

MJ

 

[GaryTaylor]

We muslims believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to her son, Jesus.

"*Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee-- chosen thee above the women of all nations. Behold! the angels said: 'O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity.

And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous. She said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?’ He said: 'Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is! And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel*" (Qur’an, surah 3:42, 45-48)

So, as you can see above, Jesus is given a few different titles. The Messiah [Christ] and A Word from Allah. He’s similar to Adam because he, like Jesus, had no father. Allah spoke both Adam and Jesus into existance. " The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be!’. And he was" (surah 3:59). Also, important to note, Jesus is sometimes called “the son of Mary” in the Qur’an. That title is atypical of how the arabic language is used in Qur’anic revelation. Every other man is known as the son of his father (i.e. Isaac the son of Abraham or Joseph the son of Jacob). That further proves the virgin birth; had Jesus been born through natural means, he would’ve been known as ‘Ibn Yusuf’; ’
the son of Joseph’.

The fact that he’s only identified as ‘the son of Mary’ is interesting. What’s more, you’ll never find muslims refer to the Qur’an as “the Word of God”. The Word of God exists, but it is a man-- not a book. Jesus is the Word of God. The Qur’an is not a Jewish man who was born of a virgin.

Lets start with one point I don’t understand

The Qur’an is not a Jewish man who was born of a virgin.

Yet the two understandings are strikingly similar, what is the significance of above in relation.

Also if the Jesus of the Quran is

"O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee-- chosen thee above the women of all nations. Behold! the angels said: 'O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus,

A Word from whom? What does purified mean and of what meaning does this have in relation to the Word above. And also…

The Word of God exists, but it is a man-

I don’t understand how you can qualify these two understandings?

 

[Zachary]

Really? semantics?

Look, the word “Saturday” is derived from the word “Saturn”. When I say “I love Saturday”, that has nothing to do with worshiping the roman God, Saturn. If I can’t use a word [person] that I think anyone on this forum could understand, I don’t know what you want from me.

You do divide the Godhead up into three beings. They can’t all be self-sufficient, because one of the Persons died on a cross (according to you). From what I can tell, the idea that Jesus needed no assistance and was in control at all times is a concept of Paul, the author of Hebrews and John’s Gospel. John must’ve been embaressed by the episode in the garden of Gethsemane, so he replaced it with a long prayer (the high priestly prayer). Take a look:

“And they went to a place called Gethsemane. And he said to his disciples, ‘Sit here while I pray’. And he took with him Peter and James and John, and began to be greatly distressed and troubled. And he said to them, ‘My soul is very sorrowful, even to death. Remain here and watch.’ And going a little farther, he fell on the ground and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, 'Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will” (Mark 14:32-36)

Does that sound like God praying to you?

Because Jesus was also fully human (as fully God, He can do that.) And to be fully human, He did what He expects of humanity, and that is to pray. It’s not an admission that He was not also fully God, but that He was fully human.

I’ve heard it explained that He could not be fully human without feeling a separation from God from which all we sinners suffer. On the Cross, He cried out “Why have you forsaken me.” In that moment, He must have felt fully human, suffering and feeling abandonned. Yet, He prays, offering Himself to God.

Don’t forget, we aren’t dealing with a fully-only human with human limitations. How Father, Son and Holy Spirit can be fully God and fully each Person (big P) is a mystery that will make your head explose (like trying to imagine nothingness…it’s impossible.)