Muslims - Prove that islam existed before muhammad..

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Sister_Amy said:
Out of idle curiosity, what kind of “proof” would you accept?
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Show ANY historical document that mentions islam, anything! show us proof that it existed…
there are many historical documents out there, surely there must be something to help muslims make the claim that islam existed before muhammad… 🤷
 
Sister_Amy said:
You can’t say you are submitting yourself to God if you are denying his Messengers and his Scriptures.
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There you go again, trying to impose your will on others. We have a right to believe what we do and also the right to reject what we do not consider valid. Why do so many of your posts sound as if you’re trying to beat something into our skulls?

Vickie
 
Sister Amy, I read the response.

By saying that “islam” means to “submit to God” that then means anyone who submits to God is muslem, like dolphinlove pointed out.

However, does that make us, Catholics who DO submit to God - that you refuse to believe no matter how many times we’ve told you we DO, does that make us muslem? No, it does not make us muslem.

Catholics do not deny the Bible, in fact, we are the living word of God as Jesus Christ preached it. We do not deny our prophets, nor do we deny God’s only begotten son. Because you want to continue to believe erroneously that we do, does NOT make it true or correct.

Secondly, the fact that you admitted in another thread (the “Evil Eye” thread) that Islam (which is supposed to mean “submit to God”) teaches that some other force (that’s NOT God) could quite possibly have power over him. That also means that some other force could have power over Islam (which is submission to God). That right there tells me that Islam is a false religion, and that the “god” of Islam is a false god. The One True God is all powerful, ever living, and can not possibly be toppled by any other force, not even Satan. When you posted that, that sealed it for me on Islam as being a false religion.
 
Booklover said:
There you go again, trying to impose your will on others. We have a right to believe what we do and also the right to reject what we do not consider valid. Why do so many of your posts sound as if you’re trying to beat something into our skulls?

Vickie
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It’s the violence inherent within Islam, Vickie.
 
Booklover said:
There you go again, trying to impose your will on others. We have a right to believe what we do and also the right to reject what we do not consider valid. Why do so many of your posts sound as if you’re trying to beat something into our skulls?

Vickie
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Its because they cant answer a simple question and have no sources… they are trying to get off subject… once again… 😉
 
GodIsGracious said:
Sister Amy, I read the response.

By saying that “islam” means to “submit to God” that then means anyone who submits to God is muslem, like dolphinlove pointed out.

However, does that make us, Catholics who DO submit to God - that you refuse to believe no matter how many times we’ve told you we DO, does that make us muslem? No, it does not make us muslem.

Catholics do not deny the Bible, in fact, we are the living word of God as Jesus Christ preached it. We do not deny our prophets, nor do we deny God’s only begotten son. Because you want to continue to believe erroneously that we do, does NOT make it true or correct.

Secondly, the fact that you admitted in another thread (the “Evil Eye” thread) that Islam (which is supposed to mean “submit to God”) teaches that some other force (that’s NOT God) could quite possibly have power over him. That also means that some other force could have power over Islam (which is submission to God). That right there tells me that Islam is a false religion, and that the “god” of Islam is a false god. The One True God is all powerful, ever living, and can not possibly be toppled by any other force, not even Satan. When you posted that, that sealed it for me on Islam as being a false religion.
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It’s just the ubiquitous “circular reasoning” all over again!

Vickie
 
dolphinlove said:
Show ANY historical document that mentions islam, anything! show us proof that it existed…
there are many historical documents out there, surely there must be something to help muslims make the claim that islam existed before muhammad… 🤷
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This is just a silly question.

Did they live a life of submission to their Creator? This is what it means to be Muslim. They were absolute monotheists, practicing the way of tawhid. Anyone who lives this way — and this has been available to humanity (always and everywhere) because, no matter how much we try to hide from it, we all live in consciousness of our own contingency and creaturliness — is Muslim.

For as long as there has been a creation, there has been, what we call, Islam, and Muslims (those who live in submission to their Creator, practicing tawhid).

So did Abraham worship the one God and live life in submission to God? Yes. Enough said.
 
dolphinlove said:
How am i denying him by following his true religion? I follow his REAL prophets and his REAL Son, who by the way gave his life for us, which is what islam totally denies… which makes it a false religion, therefore muhammad a false prophet…🙂
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Oh, let’s see, worshiping a human being, attributing a son to God Almighty, rejecting His messengers and scriptures like I said before. That’s how you’re not submitting to God.

You’re essentially saying “No, God, I won’t worship you ALONE because I want to worship Jesus too,” and “No, God, I won’t accept your Messenger Muhammad or the Qur’an because…” and whatever your reason is. I surely don’t know.
 
Hypatia said:
This is just a silly question.

Did they live a life of submission to their Creator? This is what it means to be Muslim. They were absolute monotheists, practicing the way of tawhid. Anyone who lives this way — and this has been available to humanity (always and everywhere) because, no matter how much we try to hide from it, we all live in consciousness of our own contingency and creaturliness — is Muslim.

For as long as there has been a creation, there has been, what we call, Islam, and Muslims (those who live in submission to their Creator, practicing tawhid).

So did Abraham worship the one God and live life in submission to God? Yes. Enough said.
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No, not enough said. And I will say it again.

You have defined the word “Islam” to meant “submit to God” (Or “submission to God” - something to that effect.) What that effectively means is that EVERYONE who submits to God is Muslim.

This is not true.

To be Muslim is to believe and agree to its teachings. Abraham did not agree to, nor did he believe in, its teachings. He was Jewish. He practice Judaism.

To be Catholic is to believe and agree to its teachings.

Just because Jews, Catholics, and Muslims all submit to God, it does not all make us Muslim. Get that through your hijab already.

It’s like saying that anyone who speaks Spanish is from Spain. That is patently false. We know this because we have Spaniards (who are from Spain), Mexicans (who are from Mexico), Cubans (who are from Cuba), etc. etc. all speak spanish. The same language does not make a people of the same people.

Therefore, Abraham, nor Jesus, nor anyone else in the Bible, practiced Islam.

You are perpetuating a logical fallacy that a newbie in Introduction to Logic can break down quite easily.

Enough. Said.
 
GodIsGracious said:
Sister Amy, I read the response.

By saying that “islam” means to “submit to God” that then means anyone who submits to God is muslem, like dolphinlove pointed out.
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If a person actually does submit to God, yes. And that requires belief in God above all.
However, does that make us, Catholics who DO submit to God - that you refuse to believe no matter how many times we’ve told you we DO, does that make us muslem? No, it does not make us muslem.
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It isn’t I or any Muslim who can say whether or not you’re submitting to God, but only God can say. And He says that people who do certain things are not submitting to Him, and it just so happens that Catholics do some of those things.
Catholics do not deny the Bible, in fact, we are the living word of God as Jesus Christ preached it.
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But the Bible isn’t (a) all God’s scripture, or (b) all of God’s scripture.
We do not deny our prophets, nor do we deny God’s only begotten son. Because you want to continue to believe erroneously that we do, does NOT make it true or correct.
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You deny a prophet who was sent of all of mankind, quite something serious, I’d say, but the even greater problem is that you attribute something to God that isn’t true.
Secondly, the fact that you admitted in another thread (the “Evil Eye” thread) that Islam (which is supposed to mean “submit to God”) teaches that some other force (that’s NOT God) could quite possibly have power over him. That also means that some other force could have power over Islam (which is submission to God). That right there tells me that Islam is a false religion, and that the “god” of Islam is a false god. The One True God is all powerful, ever living, and can not possibly be toppled by any other force, not even Satan. When you posted that, that sealed it for me on Islam as being a false religion.
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To the contrary–you should go back and read what I wrote. The evil eye does not have power over God’s decree. That was my point. You seemed to understand from what I said the exact opposite–so you might want to be worried about what Satan is whispering in your ear.
 
Booklover said:
There you go again, trying to impose your will on others. We have a right to believe what we do and also the right to reject what we do not consider valid. Why do so many of your posts sound as if you’re trying to beat something into our skulls?

Vickie
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Sure, you have the right in this world to deny God’s scriptures, and His Messengers. Just like an atheist has the right to deny God altogether.

But don’t think that you can do that and everything will be hunky-dory when you are resurrected and held to account.
 
Sister_Amy said:
Oh, let’s see, worshiping a human being, attributing a son to God Almighty, rejecting His messengers and scriptures like I said before. That’s how you’re not submitting to God.

You’re essentially saying “No, God, I won’t worship you ALONE because I want to worship Jesus too,” and “No, God, I won’t accept your Messenger Muhammad or the Qur’an because…” and whatever your reason is. I surely don’t know.
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First, this post shows the inherent differences in our beliefs.

You’re Muslim. You do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, nor do you believe in the Holy Trinity.

We’re Catholic. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Holy Trinity.

You’re Muslim. You accept Muhammad (especially since he started your religion).

We’re Catholic. We don’t have to accept Muhammad. (Especially since it seems that he espouses NOTHING of our religion.)

You know, I’m not even going to go any further. I have proven beyond a doubt that to be Muslem, or to practice Islam, there are certain tenets and beliefs that one must adhere to in order to be consider Muslem.

You refuse to see this. That’s fine. You can stay in your false religion and the rest of us can only pray for your souls.

I need to get back to work…
 
dolphinlove said:
source?
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Actually there are two things, the first thing to be proven is whether God spoke to “all” His prophets. And the second is whether God spoke to Muhammad. I don’t know of any proof that God spoke to “all” His prophets in the first place, but regardless, He did speak to Muhammad, at least on the Mi’raaj.
 
dolphinlove said:
Show ANY historical document that mentions islam, anything! show us proof that it existed…
there are many historical documents out there, surely there must be something to help muslims make the claim that islam existed before muhammad… 🤷
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The Bible, obviously.
 
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