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teenphilo1
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The kind that we all want to avoid.
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Giants
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I think we should be concerned. There is a large portion of Muslims in democratically organized European societies that openly state their intention to re-create a lost, medieval caliphate. As in, they hold press conferences and are respectfully questioned by professional journalists. There is another portion of Muslims who aren’t so radical, but who refuse to stand up against the radical elements of Islam, whether in their midst or abroad - and not just because it may be viewed as apostasy, which is a death sentence in the Islamic faith.
Add to this, many secularists and liberals who think it’s bigotry to notice a connection between the fundamentals of Islam and Islamic fundamentalists. The fact is, at this moment in history, the largest block of people willing to stand up and point out the danger we’re facing from Islam are conservative, evangelical Christians. They bring the added liability of thinking their God is stronger and will win by default, or that they can pray their way to victory.
Add to this, many secularists and liberals who think it’s bigotry to notice a connection between the fundamentals of Islam and Islamic fundamentalists. The fact is, at this moment in history, the largest block of people willing to stand up and point out the danger we’re facing from Islam are conservative, evangelical Christians. They bring the added liability of thinking their God is stronger and will win by default, or that they can pray their way to victory.
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lozo
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the idea that the media and very extreme religious biggots provide us with about the muslim faith is absolutely obsurd. instead of listening to what others tell you about the faith why not pick up the quran read it and see what it really says for yourselves. im not a religious man at all just like to bring logic into discussions of religion, im actually a third year college student who constantly sees the fighting of all sides in these religious battles and they make absolutely no sense. ever since osama said jihad everyone jumped to the conclusions that all muslims use this word jihad as a crux for violence, when in reality muhammad was probably just talking about a war between good and evil that the word of god and devilish ways are a war. if you want to say islam is a barbarric faith i suggest that we look at all religions and judge them the same ways the jews use the old testament as an excuse to be at war with arabs in palestine because they feel land was promised to them through a burning bush ( actually sounds very schizoprhinic to me ) the catholics burned witches. the protestants burned crosses in lawns im not to up on the protestant religion but god knows what else theyve done. every religion has been used to wage war the great crusades an all that so to call the people of islam barbaric one should look at there own religion an see the barbaric truth of selves
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InJesusItrust
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Let us not just talk about reading the Qu’ran but actually do it. When you are done give me your opinion. Go.
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Pythons
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Directly after 9-11 I bought a Koran and went through it page by page and took notes…
…What I did find was that the Koran DID say that Jews and Christians were people of the book & were to be treated with respect.
…Provided that they believed like a Muslim believes.
I’m not sure what Faith Tradition you come from but I can say that a Christian or Jew who rejects the Trinity OR that Mary was the Mother of God…
…Is NOT A CHRISTIAN.
For most people who could care less about the truth having the Main Stream Media or President Bush claim Islam is a religion of peace is enough for them…
…For people who want to research things out for themselves they found out it was total lies.
Given that I was in the Army for Desert Storm I was able to see 1st hand what a true Muslim society is all about…
…Only a dullard would give up democracy for Sharia.
This attached picture I just took from my own Koran that I read from cover to cover…
…If you would like some more gems from it feel free to ask.
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Pythons
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Picture wouldn’t attach to my post.
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lozo
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i have read many readings of quran just as i have read many redings from the bible old testament and new, ive also studied buddha which to me seems to be the only nonviolent religion. anyways looking at the quran knowing how the quran came about i see no evidence at all that they are a more violent or volitile people than any christians in fact the teachings are very similar, to understand the quran understand the idea behind it just as you strive to understand the idea behind the bible i happen to be in my third year of college ive focuse mainly on political science history and psychology as im going to law school very soon, history shows us the teachings muhammad preaches to the people of islam are actually mostly out of the bible and simplified. not only that as ive stated previously no religion besides the buddhist as far as i can tell are a non violent people every religious set seems to be extremely violent if you look at my last point i think youll be able to tell where im going with this burning of witches? really comeon these were simply just women who were probably non catholics some may have even been catholic, the burnings of these women were just one way that they were executed, the great crusades christians mainly catholics trying to conquer lands, the jews now fighting a war they claim is just because the old testament tells them so the protestants burning crosses here in america, also i believe they hated the catholics, i know all of them hated the peagans. every religion ive read about seems to hate someone and we can see it now in these absolutely obsurd arguments that muslims are trying to take over the whole world when they cant even have peace in there own lands because everyone else wants to tell them how they should live. now im no muslim im no catholic im buddhist im not even a atheist i believe that there is a god but im quite sure he doesnt want us using his wars to do any of this absolutely atrocious barbaric stuff. i think every religion needs to lok at there history and be ashamed they missed that whole commandment about not murdering seeing as were supposedly using gods words to justify massacreing eachother. i also think we need to worry more about the message because it is indeed universal throughout religions the main point of all tehse books seems to be treat others how you yourself would like to be treated and were absolutely failing, but on the other hand were doing a great job killing eachother over who our preferred messenger is
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teenphilo1
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It’s ok. We still get the point. Very well put, I might add.
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dzheremi
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What makes you assume that people who are against Islam haven’t done that? Certainly those calling for the establishment of the caliphate have also read it.
If you can’t make sense of why there might be religious conflict between Islam and the rest of the world, then how are you in any position to tell other people what to do about it or how they should conduct themselves?
So now you are an Arabic scholar? يا معلم، علمني!
Sure thing:
What my religion is about
Our essential beliefs
What Muslims do to monasteries and monks of my religion
What Muslims do to Christian worshipers gathered for night prayers ahead of Christmas
It’s pretty obvious, really. You don’t need to be a third year college student to see that false equivalency doesn’t really stop these assaults, or change the reality of how Islam interacts with the rest of the world, which is the source of this fighting that you’re putting at the feet of all religions equally despite openly admitting that you can’t make sense of it. Ask a Copt, ask a Chaldean, ask a Maronite, ask a Nestorian…ask any people who have lived alongside Muslims since the dawn of Islam. They can make sense of it for you, though you likely won’t be very happy with what they have to say.
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Pythons
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I took it again, it’s there now.
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lozo
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also you say you read if a christian or jew believes like a muslim believes they should be treatted as equals you somehow have interperted these wars into a hatred why couldnt that mean you worship jesus and love jesus believe in jesus with the same strong faith that a muslim should believe in there profit muhammad any words you read can have multiple meanings to them you should think about all possible meanings before jumping to conclusions whe you were in dessert storm you dealed with a hostile group of muslims had you been in say palestine you would have to deal with volitile jews on one side and a combination of muslims and christians fighting for there land on the other if you were to side with the arabs you would than have a picture of jews being bad and warlike main reason being you would be at war not because of person of thius particular faith is war like same goes both ways when you traveled to iraq or iran for dessert storm you left your country to go theres and tell them how to live if they were to come here would you have fought them ? of course this is a war your going to encounter war like people
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lozo
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nope sorry not an arab scholar im actually just a poor biracial kid from detroit who went to college
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dzheremi
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Could you please try to use proper punctuation and capitalization, Lozo? I’m having trouble following your posts because they all run together like this which makes everything read like one big run-on sentence with no punctuation and many spelling errors and general incoherency and then for some reason questions at the end with question marks disconnected from them and some other stuff that I really can’t follow war or whatever.
Thanks.
Thanks.
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lozo
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yes i suppose that i could use better punctuation, i am typing fast trying to keep uo with others, so i appologize if i havent punctuated everything.
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lozo
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Also id like to know why you havent responded to any of my other points. You keep babbling on and on about all these arguments that have no evidence to back them up. But you never responded to the crusade, the witch burnings, or the jews attacking the arabs in palestine. Do you somehow feel that these incidents were justifued because they happened from those of your faith ?
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Pythons
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When Islam becomes the majority in ANY area the people in other religions other than Islam are squeezed out…
…Or they are killed off. Period.
Perhaps you remember the sacred ( to Buddhists ) statues that the Taliban had no problem in leveling?
youtube.com/watch?v=xYYBlPWYb7Y&feature=related
You said we should read the Koran, I’ve proved that I did and I’ve brought up a point that’s serious in the Koran…
…Now it’s your turn to say why what I’ve documented as being in the Koran does not mean what it says.
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dzheremi
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That’s okay. I really don’t mean to be rude (I’m glad you took my post with humor, as far as I can tell). I just like to be able to follow whatever someone I’m conversing with has to say. I don’t want to misunderstand you is all.
yes i suppose that i could use better punctuation, i am typing fast trying to keep uo with others, so i appologize if i havent punctuated everything.
Anyway, I disagree with what (I think) you’re saying about Palestine. There are in fact many, many Christians even in Palestine who do not see Jews as evil just because of the injustices perpetrated against them by the so-called ‘Jewish state’. I just posted this recently in a different thread, but since you have (rightly) asked us to consider things as the Arabs would see them, maybe you’d like to listen to what the Melkite Catholic Archbishop of Galilee, Elias Chacour, has to say about the situation? He is Arab, Palestinian, and he does not see things as you have put them (or as many Christian Zionists see them, either).
Believe it or not, moral action or conviction is not relative to which group you ‘side’ with in a given conflict. When a man is for peace in Palestine, he is acting justly without regard to Arabs or Jews (and, indeed, there are Arab Jews, so that’s a false dichotomy in the first place), Similarly in Iraq or Egypt or wherever. It is unhealthy to view any of these places or situations as sort of ‘cosmic’ arguments. That feeds into extremism on both sides, such as we see in the statements of Muslims who say they will conquer the world because they are the greatest of all people or whatever baloney.
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lozo
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i never said there werent religiously extreme muslims there are, But there are also religiously extreme jews, and also religiously extreme christians. The muslims are no more extreme than any other religion. The Catholics conquered many lands, forcing there religion upon people, in fact its still happening today. As we type to eachother over our computers there is colonization going on all over the world from different religions. Point and Fact the Jews in palestine which you have still not responded to. Historically speaking The Crusades which you have still not shed any light on whatsoever. youre simply pointing your finger at muslims saying bad islam bad, you still havent answered any questions about western religions philosophies, or historical slaughters.
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teenphilo1
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Let’s start with saying that the OT was an imperfect law for an imperfect people. (not to say we’re perfect) It allows many questionable moral things (divorce, genocidal warfare, etc.) because the Israelites were not ready for the whole law.
Then when Jesus came and fulfilled it He gave us the perfect law.
So let’s go through here and debunk the myths.
- Crusades- what the soldiers did can (and should) be separated from the idealists who sent them there. Ideals don’t make it to the battlefront. Yes, there were atrocities, but they weren’t at the command of the pope. They were initiated to protect Christians while they were on pilgrimages. And you forget to mention the Muslims were attacking the Byzantine emperor who requested Pope Urban’s help. By the way, who was probably next on the list after the Byzantines?
- Witch burning- con-men playing to people’s fears, using tricks to shock an audience. Of course it’s not good, but are you going to try to tell me this is new, or exclusive to religion?
- Obvious KKK references- You realize the first protestants (excluding maybe Luther) made it a point to slam the door on the way out, right? Don’t blame us for what they did.
- Israel- They also have legal documents from the 20th century giving them the land. It’s not their fault Hamas doesn’t care where the rockets land. (Did you see the footage of Wolf Blitzer in the Israeli high school today?)
- all Buddhists are peaceful- cnn.com/2012/10/29/world/asia/myanmar-displaced-people/index.html?iref=allsearch They are persecuting Islamic minority. Ironic, no?
edit: I believe Israel is trying to deal with an aggressive Hamas, not the other way around. Hamas prefers random killing, Israel at least tends towards targeted assassinations.
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dzheremi
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Is this to me?
Just in case it is:
- No Oriental Orthodox Church ever participated in any Crusade. The Crusades were not justifiable, in my view, as it is not our place to recapture by force anything that was once ours. If you read the early accounts of the Syriac Christians of various confessions, who were the first to encounter Islam and the first to be conquered by the Arab Islamic invaders, they actually took their difficulties as punishment for their own sins, and did not pursue any sort of ‘crusade’ against the Muslims. (The Syriac and other Oriental Christians did not have the good relations with the Byzantine Empire by that point that the Chalcedonians did which allowed them to cooperate on the first crusade.)
- I don’t know what witch burnings have to do with Orthodox Christianity, either. I think you’re confusing many different populations from different times and cultures.
- If you watch the video I linked by Abouna Chacour, you will see the view I essentially agree with regarding Israel-Palestine: I am pro-Palestinian myself, but not anti-Jewish.
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