Muslims something to think about

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Augustine3

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Majority of Muslims believe:

• The Torah has been corrupt.
• The Gospel has been corrupt.
• Even though the Israelites were a totally different generation to the Christians, nevertheless both generations had distorted the scriptures.
• God deceived the people by making them think it was Jesus on the cross when it was actually someone else that was made to look like Jesus.
• Even the non-Christian sources that confirm Jesus’ crucifixion are not reliable because they are based on a deceitful event designed by God.

Muslims don’t you think these claims are a little too convenient to suit Islam?

To simply claim all these sources are liars and the Quran is correct just seems a little too convenient for us Christians to accept…
 
Augustine3 said:
Majority of Muslims believe:

• The Torah has been corrupt.
• The Gospel has been corrupt.
• Even though the Israelites were a totally different generation to the Christians, nevertheless both generations had distorted the scriptures.
• God deceived the people by making them think it was Jesus on the cross when it was actually someone else that was made to look like Jesus.
• Even the non-Christian sources that confirm Jesus’ crucifixion are not reliable because they are based on a deceitful event designed by God.

Muslims don’t you think these claims are a little too convenient to suit Islam?

To simply claim all these sources are liars and the Quran is correct just seems a little too convenient for us Christians to accept…
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Really though, what else could they say?
 
The Gospels have been preserved with over 99% accuracy. I think they need to do some research instead of just believing what Muhammad tells them.
 
The OP is the reason I left Islam. All it seems to me is that Mohammad took the Bible verses that suited him, and then wrote into the text that anything which disagreed with him was ‘corrupt’
 
Augustine3 said:
Majority of Muslims believe:

• The Torah has been corrupt.
• The Gospel has been corrupt.
• Even though the Israelites were a totally different generation to the Christians, nevertheless both generations had distorted the scriptures.
• God deceived the people by making them think it was Jesus on the cross when it was actually someone else that was made to look like Jesus.
• Even the non-Christian sources that confirm Jesus’ crucifixion are not reliable because they are based on a deceitful event designed by God.

Muslims don’t you think these claims are a little too convenient to suit Islam?

To simply claim all these sources are liars and the Quran is correct just seems a little too convenient for us Christians to accept…
Click to expand...
You are making the assumption that muslims are allowed to research the truth/untruth of their religion.
 
Calgar said:
You are making the assumption that muslims are allowed to research the truth/untruth of their religion.
Click to expand...
This is false to a point. I’ve met many Muslims who have both read the Bible/Torah and done research into science and comparative theology and who are actually more convinced of their faith than before.
 
Kouyate42 said:
This is false to a point. I’ve met many Muslims who have both read the Bible/Torah and done research into science and comparative theology and who are actually more convinced of their faith than before.
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I was referring to the satanic verses.
 
Augustine3 said:
Majority of Muslims believe:

• The Torah has been corrupt.
• The Gospel has been corrupt.
• Even though the Israelites were a totally different generation to the Christians, nevertheless both generations had distorted the scriptures.
• God deceived the people by making them think it was Jesus on the cross when it was actually someone else that was made to look like Jesus.
• Even the non-Christian sources that confirm Jesus’ crucifixion are not reliable because they are based on a deceitful event designed by God.

Muslims don’t you think these claims are a little too convenient to suit Islam?

To simply claim all these sources are liars and the Quran is correct just seems a little too convenient for us Christians to accept…
Click to expand...
What is truly puzzling about this whole koran thing is this:

Let’s just start with the cave claims.

Mohamad claims that Gabriel came upon him, squeezed him numerous times and told him to read or recite.

Just by this alone, you conclude that this “being” had something in his hand which Mohamad had to read or recite from.?

Why didn’t he leave the text with Mohamad and tell him this is the book of Allah, go and preach to your people…??

96: 1 & 2
Code: 
    Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-
Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
Why does Mohamad tell this “being” that he cannot read. Didn’t the All-knowing Allah know his chosen prophet was illiterate…??

Why isn’t Sura 96 the opening of the koran, just as it was claimed it was the first saying from the “angel”.

I’ve concluded that no matter how much I debate the koran, it is a false book partially dictated by a man called Mohamad in the 7th century and finished by Uthman.

The original bones, parchment, wood, stones which is claimed that most of the koran was written on are all destroyed. It is also claimed that there here 7 variants of the koran, and they too were destroyed.

The only thing muslims have today is Uthmans koran. A man made and a man written book.

When muslims ask where is the original New Testatmant or the Original Old Testamant, just ask them where are the original bones, and tables, and stones and wood and parchment in which Mohamads scribes wrote on.

Please don’t tell me about the reciters who had memorized the entire 23 year build of the koran. I know all about them.

Also, ask the muslims. Which book of Allah does Allah have by his throne. It is certain that it’s not Uthmans koran that’s for sure.
 
stephe1987 said:
The Gospels have been preserved with over 99% accuracy. I think they need to do some research instead of just believing what Muhammad tells them.
Click to expand...
And that 1% difference, I believe, is purely linguistic, cultural, etc. Nothing dogmatic or theological.
 
Calgar said:
You are making the assumption that muslims are allowed to research the truth/untruth of their religion.
Click to expand...
YUP… and here it is… Sura 5:101-102

O ye who believe!

Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.

But if ye ask about things when the Qur’an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those: for God is oft-forgiving, most Merciful.

Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
 
jakasaki said:
YUP… and here it is… Sura 5:101-102

O ye who believe!

Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.

But if ye ask about things when the Qur’an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those: for God is oft-forgiving, most Merciful.

Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
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I seem to remember a St Augustine quote which said something on the lines of ‘The greatest enemy of man is that of curiousity. It leads men to question that which is unknown and which is the preserve of God alone’’.
 
jakasaki said:
Why does Mohamad tell this “being” that he cannot read. Didn’t the All-knowing Allah know his chosen prophet was illiterate…??

Why isn’t Sura 96 the opening of the koran, just as it was claimed it was the first saying from the “angel”.
Click to expand...
Muhomed wasn’t even sure it was an angel. He thought it could be the devil trying to trick him.

Those writings have been suppressed.
 
96: 1 & 2
Click to expand...
Proclaim! (or read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-
Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:
Click to expand...
Why does Mohamad tell this “being” that he cannot read. Didn’t the All-knowing Allah know his chosen prophet was illiterate…??
Click to expand...
This is easy. Think of the Qur’an as a series of modules, with the most basic lessons and bases for the Islamic faith coming first and then the following series of surahs (a lot of commentaries actually make this point) act as follow-on ‘modules’ where increasingly advanced spiritual lessons are taught.

Generally the first 5 surat are taken as the basics, with arguments presented to Jewish and Christian audiences for the truth of Qur’an in this group too. Then the following 4 surat are for solving issues which had arisen in the early Islamic community and so on.

This is the reason that the revelations aren’t in chronological order, but Islam teaches that this order comes from Allah who ordered it so.
 
jakasaki said:
When muslims ask where is the original New Testatmant or the Original Old Testamant, just ask them where are the original bones, and tables, and stones and wood and parchment in which Mohamads scribes wrote on.

Please don’t tell me about the reciters who had memorized the entire 23 year build of the koran. I know all about them.

Also, ask the muslims. Which book of Allah does Allah have by his throne. It is certain that it’s not Uthmans koran that’s for sure.
Click to expand...
Muslims claim to have an unbroken chain of transmission of the Quran. They are very proud of it and use that as their defence against any challenge claiming the Quran is corrupt. They also use it as a reason not to trust the Bible because we do not have a chain of transmission as they do.

What they fail to understand is we are not “people of the book” as the Quran calls us; we do not follow solar scriptura. We have sacred tradition and the magisterium in addition to the Bible as our three pillars of faith.

God bless,
 
Augustine3 said:
Muslims claim to have an unbroken chain of transmission of the Quran. They are very proud of it and use that as their defence against any challenge claiming the Quran is corrupt. They also use it as a reason not to trust the Bible because we do not have a chain of transmission as they do.

What they fail to understand is we are not “people of the book” as the Quran calls us; we do not follow solar scriptura. We have sacred tradition and the magisterium in addition to the Bible as our three pillars of faith.

God bless,
Click to expand...
To claim and profess without any evidence is where they fail. 🤷

MJ
 
My only take with the claim of corrupt scripture is this:
If, God himself is unable to keep his revelation intact during the course of history, then there is no guarantee whatsoever, that current Quran is not corrupted, that in the course of history, there will be another “new prohpet” to reveal a pristine scripture.
But then, I cannot give my full assertion to any revelation. It just show that man sinfulness is too great and whatever covenant established we have no assurance that it will last.
 
Kouyate42 said:
The OP is the reason I left Islam. All it seems to me is that Mohammad took the Bible verses that suited him, and then wrote into the text that anything which disagreed with him was ‘corrupt’
Click to expand...
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.

You became a Christian? Wow. Last week you were a muslim. Thats amazing! Welcome to the faith.

Sorry, I’m just surprised because I remember us debating you against what is truth. I’m glad you left to join the Catholics. 👍
 
Alfonsus said:
My only take with the claim of corrupt scripture is this:
If, God himself is unable to keep his revelation intact during the course of history, then there is no guarantee whatsoever, that current Quran is not corrupted, that in the course of history, there will be another “new prohpet” to reveal a pristine scripture.
But then, I cannot give my full assertion to any revelation. It just show that man sinfulness is too great and whatever covenant established we have no assurance that it will last.
Click to expand...
That’s exactly what I was thinking too.

Why would God allow the Jewish and Christian scripture to become corrupt?

And how would Mohammad even know if the quran’s scripture was correct if he was illiterate? his followers could have changed his words to put down extra things.
 
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