Muslims, who is Harun?

[Angelos]

**This is an accusation of the high order without any concrete proof or example. Please give example of where God failed to tell the right thing…

Muhammad did not learn anything from any one. But we know that Jesus learnt all things from the seniors, step by step and lesson by lesson, he learnt all Jewish religion of his fore fathers.**

Jesus was a wise man that perfectly knew the Law and the Scripture. Many Jewish leaders were astounded by Jesus’ wisdom and surpassing knowledge of the Torah. Mohammad, on the other hand, was a man that could not read and write even his personal name. Mohammad did not learn anything accurately until the land covered his body. He only twisted what he had heard from others. This is why neither the Koran nor Islam has originality.

 

[inJESUS]

This is an accusation of the high order without any concrete proof or example. Please give example of where God failed to tell the right thing] i was talking about the same repetitive historical accounts in the Quran, each time adding some details…surely it was not God learning history…i do not remember them now…when i do, i’ll post them. Meanwhile check this:

42 And when the angels said, ‘Mary, God has chosen thee, and purified thee; He has chosen thee above all women. [43] Mary; be obedient to thy Lord, prostrating and bowing before Him.’
[44] (That is of the tidings of the Unseen, that We reveal to thee; for thou wast not with them, when they were casting quills which of them should have charge of Mary; thou wast not with them, when they were disputing.)

Allah is telling Muhammad, (or actually those who question Muhammad), that he was not “with them, when they were casting quills which of them should have charge of Mary” and THEREFORE these things are REVEALED to Muhammad.

YET we find these in the apocrypha! Muhammad does not even need to be “with them” to know about what he wrote because it was written before him…he needs only listen to it.

Such an erroneous claim cannot be from the all-knowing God but from someone trying to fool the ignorant that what he is saying is from God because “he was not there” but we know better.

 

[inJESUS]

She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me." He said: "So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: “Be!” and it is. S. 3:47

She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?" He said: “So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me (Allah): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allah), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allah).’” S. 19:20-21

Same account with additions. Why did Allah need to repeat the same annunciation story, adding to it things that he did not mention previously, like “nor am I unchaste” and the rest? remember, we are talking about one author here, not many authors as in the NT where repetations and varying details is something normal since more than one person are writing.

Check as well 20:9-24, 27:7-14, 28:29-33

Has the story of Moses Reached Thee? Behold he saw a fire: So he said to his family, "Tarry ye: I perceive a fire; perhaps I can Bring you some burning brand Therefrom, or find some guidance At the fire." But when he came to the fire, a voice Was heard: "O Moses! "Verily I am thy Lord! Therefore (in My presence) Put off thy shoes: thou art In the sacred valley Tuwa. "I have chosen thee: Listen, then, to the inspiration (Sent to thee). “Verily, I am God: There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), And establish regular prayer For celebrating My praise. Verily the hour is coming- My design is to keep it Hidden- for every soul To its reward By the measure of its endeavor. Therefore let not such as Believe not therein But follow their own Lusts, divert thee therefrom, Lest thou perish!” “And what is that in thy right hand, O Moses?” He said, “It is My rod: on it I lean; with it I beat down fodder For my flocks; and In it I find Have Other uses.” (God) said, “Throw it, O Moses!" He threw it, and behold it was a snake Active in motion. (God) said "Seize it And fear not: We shall return it at once To its former condition… Now draw thy hand Close to thy side: It shall come forth white (And shining), without harm (or stain),- As a another Sign,- In order that we may show thee (Two) of our Greater Signs. Go thou to Pharaoh For he has indeed Transgressed all bounds.” [S. 20:9-24

Behold! Moses said to his family “I perceive A fire; **soon will I bring you From there some information, Or I will Bring you A burning brand to light our fuel That ye may Warm yourselves.” But when he came To the (Fire), a voice Was heard: "Blessed are those In the Fire and those around: And Glory to God, The Lord of the Worlds. "O Moses! Verily I am God, the Exalted In Might, the wise!.. “Now do throw thy rod!” But when he saw it Moving (of its own accord) As if it had been a snake, He turned back in Retreat, And retraced not his steps: “O Moses!” (it was said), “Fear not: truly, in My presence, Those called as apostles Have no fear,- But if Any have done wrong And have thereafter substituted Good to take the place of the evil, Truly, I am Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. "Now put thy hand into Thy bosom, and it will Come forth white without stain (Or harm): (These are) among The nine Signs (thou wilt take) To Pharaoh and his people: For they are A people Rebellious in transgression.” But when Our Signs came To them, that should opened their eyes, they said: “This is Sorcery manifest!” And they rejected those Signs In iniquity and arrogance, Though their Souls were convinced Thereof: so see what was The end of those Who acted corruptly. [S. 27:7-14]

Now when Moses had fulfilled The term, and was traveling With his family, he perceived A fire in the direction of Mount Tur. He said To his family: “Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; I hope To bring you from there Some information, or a burning Firebrand that ye may warm yourselves.” But when he came To the (Fire), a voice was heard from the right back Of the valley, from a tree In hallowed ground: “O Moses! Verily I am God, the Lord of the Worlds … Now do thou throw thy rod! But when he saw it Moving (of its own accord) As if it had been a snake, He turned back in retreat and retraced not his steps: “O Moses!” (It was said), "Draw near, and fear not; For thou art of those Who are secure. "Move thy hand into thy bosom, and it will Come forth to thy side (To guard) against fear. Those are the two credentials From thy Lord to Pharaoh And his Chiefs: for truly They are a people Rebellious and wicked.” [S. 28:29-33]

check as well 20:38-40, 28:7,11-13

or

They said: “O Moses! Whether wilt thou That thou throw (first) Or that we be the first to throw?” He said, "Nay, throw ye First!"…20:65-73

then we read:
Moses said to them, “Throw ye- which ye are about to throw!” …26:41

these are a sample.

 

[Angelos]

She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me." He said: "So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: “Be!” and it is. S. 3:47

She said: “How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?” He said: “So (it will be), your Lord said: 'That is easy for Me (Allah): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allah), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allah).’” S. 19:20-21

Same account with additions. Why did Allah need to repeat the same annunciation story, adding to it things that he did not mention previously, like “nor am I unchaste” and the rest? remember, we are talking about one author here, not many authors as in the NT where repetations and varying details is something normal since more than one person are writing.

Check as well 20:9-24, 27:7-14, 28:29-33

Has the story of Moses Reached Thee? Behold he saw a fire: So he said to his family, "Tarry ye: I perceive a fire; perhaps I can Bring you some burning brand Therefrom, or find some guidance At the fire." But when he came to the fire, a voice Was heard: "O Moses! "Verily I am thy Lord! Therefore (in My presence) Put off thy shoes: thou art In the sacred valley Tuwa. "I have chosen thee: Listen, then, to the inspiration (Sent to thee). “Verily, I am God: There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), And establish regular prayer For celebrating My praise. Verily the hour is coming- My design is to keep it Hidden- for every soul To its reward By the measure of its endeavor. Therefore let not such as Believe not therein But follow their own Lusts, divert thee therefrom, Lest thou perish!” “And what is that in thy right hand, O Moses?” He said, “It is My rod: on it I lean; with it I beat down fodder For my flocks; and In it I find Have Other uses.” (God) said, “Throw it, O Moses!" He threw it, and behold it was a snake Active in motion. (God) said "Seize it And fear not: We shall return it at once To its former condition… Now draw thy hand Close to thy side: It shall come forth white (And shining), without harm (or stain),- As a another Sign,- In order that we may show thee (Two) of our Greater Signs. Go thou to Pharaoh For he has indeed Transgressed all bounds.” [S. 20:9-24

Behold! Moses said to his family "I perceive A fire; **soon will I bring you From there some information, Or I will Bring you A burning brand to light our fuel That ye may Warm yourselves

." But when he came To the (Fire), a voice Was heard: "Blessed are those In the Fire and those around: And Glory to God, The Lord of the Worlds. "O Moses! Verily I am God, the Exalted In Might, the wise!.. “Now do throw thy rod!” But when he saw it Moving (of its own accord) As if it had been a snake, He turned back in Retreat, And retraced not his steps: “O Moses!” (it was said), “Fear not: truly, in My presence, Those called as apostles Have no fear,- But if Any have done wrong And have thereafter substituted Good to take the place of the evil, Truly, I am Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. "Now put thy hand into Thy bosom, and it will Come forth white without stain (Or harm): (These are) among The nine Signs (thou wilt take) To Pharaoh and his people: For they are A people Rebellious in transgression.” But when Our Signs came To them, that should opened their eyes, they said: “This is Sorcery manifest!” And they rejected those Signs In iniquity and arrogance, Though their Souls were convinced Thereof: so see what was The end of those Who acted corruptly. [S. 27:7-14]

Now when Moses had fulfilled The term, and was traveling With his family, he perceived A fire in the direction of Mount Tur. He said To his family: “Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; I hope To bring you from there Some information, or a burning Firebrand that ye may warm yourselves.” But when he came To the (Fire), a voice was heard from the right back Of the valley, from a tree In hallowed ground: “O Moses! Verily I am God, the Lord of the Worlds … Now do thou throw thy rod! But when he saw it Moving (of its own accord) As if it had been a snake, He turned back in retreat and retraced not his steps: “O Moses!” (It was said), "Draw near, and fear not; For thou art of those Who are secure. "Move thy hand into thy bosom, and it will Come forth to thy side (To guard) against fear. Those are the two credentials From thy Lord to Pharaoh And his Chiefs: for truly They are a people Rebellious and wicked.” [S. 28:29-33]

check as well 20:38-40, 28:7,11-13

or

They said: “O Moses! Whether wilt thou That thou throw (first) Or that we be the first to throw?” He said, "Nay, throw ye First!"…20:65-73

then we read:
Moses said to them, “Throw ye- which ye are about to throw!” …26:41

these are a sample.

Excellent post!
I am proud of you :hug1:

 

[planten]

i was talking about the same repetitive historical accounts in the Quran, each time adding some details…surely it was not God learning history…i do not remember them now…when i do, i’ll post them. Meanwhile check this:

42 And when the angels said, ‘Mary, God has chosen thee, and purified thee; He has chosen thee above all women. [43] Mary; be obedient to thy Lord, prostrating and bowing before Him.’
[44] (That is of the tidings of the Unseen, that We reveal to thee; for thou wast not with them, when they were casting quills which of them should have charge of Mary; thou wast not with them, when they were disputing.)

Allah is telling Muhammad, (or actually those who question Muhammad), that he was not “with them, when they were casting quills which of them should have charge of Mary” and THEREFORE these things are REVEALED to Muhammad.

YET we find these in the apocrypha! Muhammad does not even need to be “with them” to know about what he wrote because it was written before him…he needs only listen to it.

Such an erroneous claim cannot be from the all-knowing God but from someone trying to fool the ignorant that what he is saying is from God because “he was not there” but we know better.

That is your weakness. Bad information. Lack of information in the bible. The Quran rightly repeats the matters again and again whenever required for some reason. Your last protest is about the apocryphal. Who is running after the apocryphal? Where is it available? Was it availabale in the jungles of arabia? You simply have no idea of what you are saying.

Your basic fault is that you do not believe that Quran is revealed by Allah to Muhammad. So nothing can help you. You may not be believing that there is a God. Or that the god revealed anything to Moses or Jesus. Why did Jesus exist and where and how? It could all be false stories found in the apocryphal too.

The problem is that you are at a much lower level of unbiased honesty.You believe in the bible that it is a book from God (perhaps you do). But you do not believe that the Quran is a book from God. That is your basic problem. If you will believe the same things for others that you use for the sake of bible then you will be on the right track. When you do that then please tell us. We will try to help you.

 

[swariffin]

That is your weakness. Bad information. Lack of information in the bible. The Quran rightly repeats the matters again and again whenever required for some reason. Your last protest is about the apocryphal. Who is running after the apocryphal? Where is it available? Was it availabale in the jungles of arabia? You simply have no idea of what you are saying.

Your basic fault is that you do not believe that Quran is revealed by Allah to Muhammad. So nothing can help you. You may not be believing that there is a God. Or that the god revealed anything to Moses or Jesus. Why did Jesus exist and where and how? It could all be false stories found in the apocryphal too.

The problem is that you are at a much lower level of unbiased honesty.You believe in the bible that it is a book from God (perhaps you do). But you do not believe that the Quran is a book from God. That is your basic problem. If you will believe the same things for others that you use for the sake of bible then you will be on the right track. When you do that then please tell us. We will try to help you.

That is what we don’t understand. If the later came with additional info from the older one without any proof whatsoever, logically the later is THE FALSE ONE. That means the later is the ABROGATED VERSION. If I added your QURAN with my own word, claim it to be from Allah, claim that Allah has changed his mind (as Sister Amy believe that Allah has the right to change his mind) and published it in 2008, by your definition and logic, my Quran is the better one.

 

[hamba2han]

Going by Christian arguments against the Qur’an, an older scripture is all that is needed because it came earlier than any newer one.

And so then, why do Christians need a New Testament when the Old Testament is surely good enough?

 

[swariffin]

Going by Christian arguments against the Qur’an, an older scripture is all that is needed because it came earlier than any newer one.

And so then, why do Christians need a New Testament when the Old Testament is surely good enough?

Off course, because in the NT all the prophecies made by the prophets on the OT were fulfilled.

 

[Angelos]

Going by Christian arguments against the Qur’an, an older scripture is all that is needed because it came earlier than any newer one.

And so then, why do Christians need a New Testament when the Old Testament is surely good enough?

We Christians, unlike you Muslims, believe that the same God revealed and preserved BOTH the Old and the New Testament. This is why we never claim that the New Testament was written to replace or correct the Torah.

 

[Angelos]

That is your weakness. Bad information. Lack of information in the bible. The Quran rightly repeats the matters again and again whenever required for some reason. Your last protest is about the apocryphal. Who is running after the apocryphal? Where is it available? Was it availabale in the jungles of arabia? You simply have no idea of what you are saying.

Lack of information in the Bible? Is this why you Muslims always need the Bible to prove your arguments as well as fill in the blanks and bridge the historic gaps provided by your Koran?

The answer to your question “who is running after the apocryphal?”: the authors of the Koran did that while devising the third Surah. You should also study and do research in order to see that a certain apocryphal Gospel of Jesus’ infancy had been written in Arabic!

Your basic fault is that you do not believe that Quran is revealed by Allah to Muhammad. So nothing can help you. You may not be believing that there is a God. Or that the god revealed anything to Moses or Jesus. Why did Jesus exist and where and how? It could all be false stories found in the apocryphal too.

How can you claim that a Christian not believing in the Koran makes a big mistake??? What kind of reasoning is that? Where is logic in your arguments?

Your very scripture gives almost no information about Jesus: where was Jesus born? No answer from the Koran. Why was He given a different Law? No answer from the Koran! Why was He called the Messiah? No answer from the Koran! Who was Mary’s guard? No answer from the Koran! …

The problem is that you are at a much lower level of unbiased honesty.You believe in the bible that it is a book from God (perhaps you do). But you do not believe that the Quran is a book from God. That is your basic problem. If you will believe the same things for others that you use for the sake of bible then you will be on the right track. When you do that then please tell us. We will try to help you.

First, you do the same by applying the principle of divine preservation to the Bible rather than ONLY to the Koran. Then we shall see who is truly at a level of unbiased honesty.

 

[inJESUS]

That is your weakness. Bad information. Lack of information in the bible. The Quran rightly repeats the matters again and again whenever required for some reason. Your last protest is about the apocryphal. Who is running after the apocryphal? Where is it available? Was it availabale in the jungles of arabia? You simply have no idea of what you are saying.

Your basic fault is that you do not believe that Quran is revealed by Allah to Muhammad. So nothing can help you. You may not be believing that there is a God. Or that the god revealed anything to Moses or Jesus. Why did Jesus exist and where and how? It could all be false stories found in the apocryphal too.

The problem is that you are at a much lower level of unbiased honesty.You believe in the bible that it is a book from God (perhaps you do). But you do not believe that the Quran is a book from God. That is your basic problem. If you will believe the same things for others that you use for the sake of bible then you will be on the right track. When you do that then please tell us. We will try to help you.

you did not even answer my reply but started confusing and mixing ideas and attacking Christians and the Bible. Relax. Beside the very good comments given by other posters, here is my reply again:

Allah is telling Muhammad, (or actually those who question Muhammad), that he was not “with them, when they were casting quills which of them should have charge of Mary” and THEREFORE these things are REVEALED to Muhammad.

YET we find these in the apocrypha! Muhammad does not even need to be “with them” to know about what he wrote because it was written before him…he needs only listen to it.

Such an erroneous claim cannot be from the all-knowing God but from someone trying to fool the ignorant that what he is saying is from God because “he was not there” but we know better.

Instead of attacking irrelevant things , why not answer the claim of an all-knowing deity who CLAIMS that Muhammad knew things by REVELATION just BECAUSE he SURELY WAS NOT THERE

When IN FACT Muhammad did NOT need to be there IN THE FIRST PLACE since what was “revealed” to Muhammad was ALREADY WRITTEN BEFORE Muhammad and THEREFORE his physical “attendance” is irrelevant.

 

[planten]

Yes, Allah told Muhammad all about the marriage of Mary with jospeh. Muhammad was not there when lots were drawn. These are the news of the unseen. Your bible is quiet on this subject of how Mary was married or handed over to Joseph the Carpentar. And why she was handed over to Joseph and not some one else? Can you tell us? No. Surely No.

 

[planten]

When the subject of Haroon’s sister was closed, you have picked up another point about the Quran repeating itself in stages. And the drawing of the lots etc. Your problem (questions) will never end because you people do not believe inthe Quran being a book from God. In your mind, there is only one book from God and that was given to Jesus. The rest of the world that God had created was all forgotten and the rest of the world never heard the word of God. Do you see your weakness please.

 

[Sam_777]

you people do not believe inthe Quran being a book from God. In your mind, there is only one book from God and that was given to Jesus. The rest of the world that God had created was all forgotten and the rest of the world never heard the word of God. Do you see your weakness please.

No brother Planten, you are not forgotten, Jesus came for all the world not only Jewish & Christians, please read what he said:

“Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20).

Notice the word “All Nations”, and Jesus disciples spoke with different languages (including yours & mine) (Acts 2:1-12).

 

[Angelos]

Yes, Allah told Muhammad all about the marriage of Mary with jospeh. Muhammad was not there when lots were drawn. These are the news of the unseen. Your bible is quiet on this subject of how Mary was married or handed over to Joseph the Carpentar. And why she was handed over to Joseph and not some one else? Can you tell us? No. Surely No.

What Koran version are you reading??? Where is Joseph in the Koran? The first version of the account of Jesus’ nativity and infancy somehow denies that someone else than Jesus was there to defend and guard Mary. You should read your scripture before attacking the New Testament.

 

[Angelos]

In your mind, there is only one book from God and that was given to Jesus. The rest of the world that God had created was all forgotten and the rest of the world never heard the word of God. Do you see your weakness please.

This is a lie! read the following verses please:

John 1:12-13
He came unto his own: and his own received him not.
But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

Luke 2:29-32
Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace: Because my eyes have seen thy salvation,
Which thou hast prepared before the face of all peoples:
A light to the revelation of the Gentiles and the glory of thy people Israel.

 

[planten]

No brother Planten, you are not forgotten, Jesus came for all the world not only Jewish & Christians, please read what he said:

“Then Jesus came to them and said, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20).

Notice the word “All Nations”, and Jesus disciples spoke with different languages (including yours & mine) (Acts 2:1-12).

I agree that all authority was given to Jesus to teach the religion to the Jews in the beginning. But when they did not listen to him and tried to kill him, then as a later thought, Jesus had the idea of preaching to the gentiles. It was not the original program.

In fact, the original program was strictly for the Jews only. The other nations were likened to the dogs because Jesus said “It is not fair to give the bread of the children to the dogs”.

So the policy was changed in the last moment at the time of departure (sudden disappearance) of Jesus. The teaching of Jesus was only for the Jews. The Quran confirms it. Jesus was for the Jews only. His teaching was limited to the time only and for his people only. There is no real proof that his teaching was for all people for ever.

This matter cannot be decided by just one sentence in the bible when the rest of the bible is telling a different story. The rest of the bible is telling that Jesus teaching was strictly for Jews only.

 

[inJESUS]

Yes, Allah told Muhammad all about the marriage of Mary with jospeh. Muhammad was not there when lots were drawn. These are the news of the unseen. you still do not get what am saying. NO these are NOT news of the unseen because they were written BEFORE Muhammad and hence the Quran’s claim is erroneous and misleading .

 

[inJESUS]

I agree that all authority was given to Jesus to teach the religion to the Jews in the beginning. But when they did not listen to him and tried to kill him, then as a later thought, Jesus had the idea of preaching to the gentiles. It was not the original program.

that is not what the OT prophecies say. OT, NT and History refute your claim.

 

[Angelos]

I agree that all authority was given to Jesus to teach the religion to the Jews in the beginning. But when they did not listen to him and tried to kill him, then as a later thought, Jesus had the idea of preaching to the gentiles. It was not the original program.

In fact, the original program was strictly for the Jews only. The other nations were likened to the dogs because Jesus said “It is not fair to give the bread of the children to the dogs”.

So the policy was changed in the last moment at the time of departure (sudden disappearance) of Jesus. The teaching of Jesus was only for the Jews. The Quran confirms it. Jesus was for the Jews only. His teaching was limited to the time only and for his people only. There is no real proof that his teaching was for all people for ever.

This matter cannot be decided by just one sentence in the bible when the rest of the bible is telling a different story. The rest of the bible is telling that Jesus teaching was strictly for Jews only.

Read my quote from Luke’s Gospel once more to see that Simeon prophesies through God’s Spirit about Jesus’ universal mission when Jesus is still an infant of 40 days! Your post makes no sense since it can do nothing more than ignore and deny the teaching in the New Testament.