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Trebor135
Guest
Definitely.
Please check out these articles: “Historical Reality”, “Sura 61:14 and Church History”, “Confused revelation”, and “More confusion”.
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Please check out these articles: “Historical Reality”, “Sura 61:14 and Church History”, “Confused revelation”, and “More confusion”.
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
I have it on the authority of a professer of Church history at Kenrick-Glennon Seminary here in St. Louis, Fr. Michael Witt.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Sounds more realistic, perhaps much of the chaos we see today caused spin on the history.
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
Or you can get a concise treatment of the false claims against Christ and His crucifixion from Peter Kreeft’s “Handbook”.
There’s just no logical way, when you actually examine the evidence, that Islam’s claims about Christ line up with the facts. It’s impossible.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Right. Spencer addressed this also in his book advertised above here at CAF. Which is why ecumenical dialogue really should be reserved for advanced understanding. Not the be a muslim for a day nonsense happening at BU and other universities. Be a muslim for a day has led to be a terrorist in a year.
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
Well, yeah because I’m sure that those kids have already gotten a healthy dose of anti-colonialism and other progressive bents. Top that with the radicalism of certain Islamic texts and sayings from the Haddith and you’ve got a truly indoctrinated holy warrior.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
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Trebor135
Guest
Why do you consider “a professor of Church history” to be an “authority” on Umma history?
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Trebor135
Guest
I hadn’t read that book. Plus, web links are free.
So true. What makes it absolutely impossible for me to ever embrace Islam is the way the religion seeks to refute Christianity. The approach brings more fog than light.
It’s about time we began to evangelize our Muslim friends and acquaintances hardcore.
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
If you guys want the history Fr. Witt has talks on mp3 audio on his website:Amen, And this post is 666 for you. Good to see you around.
Peace
michaeljohnwitt.com/
If you go to the upper right icon it should be tagged as Medieval Church history. They are radio recordings of shows done on the local ewtn affiliate here. About an hour long, and the episodes on Islam are numbers 10 & 11.
He gives honest sources and a good frank treatment of the subject matter.
Hope you enjoy. God bless.
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
I prefer to be a student than a professor. I would stutter too much.
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Trebor135
Guest
Hahaha. Clever.
Just for the record, “Umma” is the Arabic term for “Muslim community”–the closest equivalent to “Church” I could come up with.
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
Yeah, I know. I think it translates to the household of Allah. The term is meant to be universal. The second caliph used it to extort alms from the other bedouin tribes that had converted. Traditional contracts died when the person died. But the successor claimed that they didn’t make a contract with Mohammed, but with Allah, so the contract was eternal. They balked of course, but then he issued a decree saying that if they didn’t submit that then they were apostates, which meant that they were soon to be shorter by a head.Hahaha. Clever.
Just for the record, “Umma” is the Arabic term for “Muslim community”–the closest equivalent to “Church” I could come up with.
They then submitted.
Another thing, this second caliph, he disinherited all of Mohammed’s wives, all except one: Aisha.
Why you ask? Because she was the caliph’ s daughter. Yes, nepotism was alive and well even then.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
I think it certainly makes sense that one should not accept a concept because it is “simpler”. Just because Tahwid may be simpler than the Trinity doesn’t make it true. If it is a divinely revealed Truth, then that would make it true. The question then becomes what evidence do Muslims have for that principle.
As for the comment on Islam not being able to deal with the problem of evil, because it teaches that we are basically good, well, I’m not so sure about that, especially when I believe Jews also teach that humans are basically good, and that we make the choice, through free will, to choose good or evil. I don’t know if Catholicism or Orthodoxy would agree that we are “utterly corrupted by sin”. I thought such a negative view of humanity was more Evangelical.
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Trebor135
Guest
Indeed.
The author of the article is, I believe, a Calvinist, so it makes sense that he would espouse total depravity; I linked to it because of how successfully the piece addresses the “‘simplicity’ (i.e., ‘logicality’) implies or necessitates ‘truth’” argument.
Neither Catholics nor Orthodox hold to the Protestant’s view of man as does the writer, but they also deny the Islamic one.
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LivingWaters7
Guest
Ok, yeah makes sense.Indeed.
The author of the article is, I believe, a Calvinist, so it makes sense that he would espouse total depravity; I linked to it because of how successfully the piece addresses the “‘simplicity’ (i.e., ‘logicality’) implies or necessitates ‘truth’” argument.
Neither Catholics nor Orthodox hold to the Protestant’s view of man as does the writer, but they also deny the Islamic one.
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drac16
Guest
Ok, sorry for this, but I have to shorten the quote to make everything fit in my post. Don’t worry, I’ll address it all, though.
Are you aware of what the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia says about the virgin Mary [peace be upon her]? it says that she was 12-14 when she got married to Joseph the Carpenter and at the time of the marriage, Joseph was in his 90s. newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm It’s irresponsible to look at the ancient world [and how it practiced marriage] with 21st century standards. Remember, the mortality rate for infants would’ve been very high in the ancient world, so I imagine that women were encouraged to get married and have kids as soon as possible.
Yes, getting married at 9 is young even by the standards of 7th century of Arabia, but Aisha [may Allah be pleased with her] was not just an average girl. She was a saintly woman and she grew up to be one of the most prolific scholars of her time, having narrated thousands of hadiths. Moreover, surah 33:6 says that Muhammad’s wives are the mothers of the muslims. There were doubtless women who were much older than Aisha who looked up to her as a motherly figure. In fact, whenever a muslim would initiate a conversation with her, he/she would say [to Aisha] “Ya Umm al-Mumineen!”, which means “O mother of the believers!”.
And about Muhammad [peace be upon him] being the ‘perfect human’. Well, The Qur’an does not say that he’s perfect in the true sense because only God is perfect. I’ve heard some so-called Islamic preachers go way overboard and say that, not only was Muhammad [peace be upon him] sinless, but that he was incapable of ever sinning. This amounts to shirk and it’s even unscriptural. Muhammad [peace be upon him] did sin by ignoring a blind man in surah 80. He, like every other human being who has ever lived, had sinned at one point or another and thus needed God’s forgiveness to have any hope in the Hereafter. Therefore, the claim that he was somehow above human is utter bologna.
However, we do believe that he was the perfect role model for his generation and every generation thereafter-- and there’s a big difference. If I say to my wife “You’re the perfect partner for me”, that doesn’t mean I’m saying that she’s literally perfect.
It’s true that the Bible calls Jesus the son of God many times, but I don’t trust those verses as being historical. I don’t trust any scripture from the Bible that contradicts the Qur’an.
The jews I consider to be my cousins, in a sense
. Obviously a jew and I are not of the same religion, but jews believe in the same God as us muslims. They believe that God is not a man, cannot die, cannot be seen with human eyes, is totally dissimilar from His creaction, etc. So, according to my understanding, jews are close to being on the right track, but the problem I’ve seen in the Tanakh is that they associate jealousy with God; a notion I myself cannot accept.
I have a beef with the christian understanding of God because it isn’t historical. None of the prophets of old believed in a trinity-- they believed in Tawheed, as is seen in the Shema. Moreover, christians believed that God died on a cross; a belief that associates human frailties to God, which, according to muslims, is absolute sacrilege.
- is a lie. Muhammad [peace be upon him] never murdered anyone. There were times when the state practiced execution, though. This is not an area I know much about, but if I recall correctly, the penalty that the sharia prescribes for treason against the state is the death penalty. The dealth penalty is not the same as murder, though.
- is a disgusting lie that’s not even worth responding to.
- Well, the only reason we know about the alleged age of Aisha [may Allah be pleased with her] is through the hadiths (oral traditions). There are a lot of contradictions in the books of Hadith regarding what Aisha’s age was at the time of her marriage; I’ve heard some say that she was 6, some that she was 9, 14, or even in her 20s. I don’t know which hadith to trust.
Are you aware of what the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia says about the virgin Mary [peace be upon her]? it says that she was 12-14 when she got married to Joseph the Carpenter and at the time of the marriage, Joseph was in his 90s. newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm It’s irresponsible to look at the ancient world [and how it practiced marriage] with 21st century standards. Remember, the mortality rate for infants would’ve been very high in the ancient world, so I imagine that women were encouraged to get married and have kids as soon as possible.
Yes, getting married at 9 is young even by the standards of 7th century of Arabia, but Aisha [may Allah be pleased with her] was not just an average girl. She was a saintly woman and she grew up to be one of the most prolific scholars of her time, having narrated thousands of hadiths. Moreover, surah 33:6 says that Muhammad’s wives are the mothers of the muslims. There were doubtless women who were much older than Aisha who looked up to her as a motherly figure. In fact, whenever a muslim would initiate a conversation with her, he/she would say [to Aisha] “Ya Umm al-Mumineen!”, which means “O mother of the believers!”.
- the only raids I’m familiar with are those that took place after Hijrah. The muslims were forced to move to Medina, so the Quraysh raided the former houses of the muslims (in Mecca). The prophet heard that this thievery had taken place, so he sent some men to intercept the caravans of the Quraysh and take back the belongings that were stolen. If every catholic was forced to leave your city due to intense persecution and you later found out that the leaders of your former city had broken into your houses, stolen everything and ravaged the houses, what would you do? walk out the door and invite those thieves over for some tea and crumpets?
And about Muhammad [peace be upon him] being the ‘perfect human’. Well, The Qur’an does not say that he’s perfect in the true sense because only God is perfect. I’ve heard some so-called Islamic preachers go way overboard and say that, not only was Muhammad [peace be upon him] sinless, but that he was incapable of ever sinning. This amounts to shirk and it’s even unscriptural. Muhammad [peace be upon him] did sin by ignoring a blind man in surah 80. He, like every other human being who has ever lived, had sinned at one point or another and thus needed God’s forgiveness to have any hope in the Hereafter. Therefore, the claim that he was somehow above human is utter bologna.
However, we do believe that he was the perfect role model for his generation and every generation thereafter-- and there’s a big difference. If I say to my wife “You’re the perfect partner for me”, that doesn’t mean I’m saying that she’s literally perfect.
It’s true that the Bible calls Jesus the son of God many times, but I don’t trust those verses as being historical. I don’t trust any scripture from the Bible that contradicts the Qur’an.
The jews I consider to be my cousins, in a sense
. Obviously a jew and I are not of the same religion, but jews believe in the same God as us muslims. They believe that God is not a man, cannot die, cannot be seen with human eyes, is totally dissimilar from His creaction, etc. So, according to my understanding, jews are close to being on the right track, but the problem I’ve seen in the Tanakh is that they associate jealousy with God; a notion I myself cannot accept.I have a beef with the christian understanding of God because it isn’t historical. None of the prophets of old believed in a trinity-- they believed in Tawheed, as is seen in the Shema. Moreover, christians believed that God died on a cross; a belief that associates human frailties to God, which, according to muslims, is absolute sacrilege.
D
drac16
Guest
The black stone doesn’t have special powers, nor was it an instrument that was used as a means to recieve revelation. During the Hajj Pilgrimage, pilgrims kiss the black stone, but not because we think it’ll give us powers. It’s because, according to Islamic tradition, that stone originally fell out of Heaven. Kissing the stone is basically a way of showing reverence to God’s Kingdom.im sorry i stopped reading any more once i got to this in Drac 16 post…
isnt that what mohamed kept in the kaba,a black rock thank gives special powers…
the rest ,well
S
Sam_777
Guest
Sorry drac16 but your reply to ProdglArchitect shows your ignorant in the Islamic dogma or you are using Taqiyya!
I highlighted them in red above:
#1 & #4: Muhammed raids link.
#2: Muhammed wives link.
#3: There is no hadith saying 14 or 20, Read the below authentic hadith:
Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3309:
"'A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah’s Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him."
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Celtic_Maiden
Guest
I see no kissing here of the Black stone, but rather full prostrations, to the black stone.im sorry i stopped reading any more once i got to this in Drac 16 post…
isnt that what mohamed kept in the kaba,a black rock thank gives special powers…
the rest ,well
peacebk.blogspot.ie/2012/08/kaaba-black-stone.html
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