Muslims - Why the Two Claims?

[Reuben_J]

If Jesus is fully God then why was Satan able to tempt him, even though he chose to ignore him how can he be tempted by his own creation who should have no power over him?

Hi. Jesus was a man. Satan tempted him but Jesus did not fall to the temptation. Thus Satan has no power over Jesus.

Jesus did has power over Satan when he cast out the demons from people who were possessed. And the Devil did acknowledge that Jesus was the son of God and pleaded with him.

 

[expounder]

In 1 Corinthians 7:25 Paul says “I have no direct command from the Lord. But I give my opinion.” So this could have simply been Paul’s opinion based upon what he thought he knew

Proof Paul (name removed by moderator)utted his own opinion into the bible so it is changed

 

[jakasaki]

In 1 Corinthians 7:25 Paul says “I have no direct command from the Lord. But I give my opinion.” So this could have simply been Paul’s opinion based upon what he thought he knew

Proof Paul (name removed by moderator)utted his own opinion into the bible so it is changed

Concerning the Unmarried
25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.

 

[Reuben_J]

Yes but God cannot die, saying his is both fully God and fully human is well illogical because it does not make any sense at all. If we ask can Jesus lie, we would say no as he is god but then he is fully human and all humans make mistakes. Then if we say yes- he can lie- it goes directly against the sovereignty of God

Of course God did not die. He cannot die. Even when Jesus as a man died, he rose again, alive.

Jesus did not lie as far as I know. Lying is a sin to Jesus. I know some prophet allowed lying but not Jesus. I am not too sure what you are getting at. Or was that a typing error? Anyway, lying is not the same as dying.

Jesus is human in every way except sin. Jesus did not commit sin. If he sinned, then his death had no value because the price of sin is death - he is merely paying for his own sin.

 

[expounder]

@reuben
Loving your creation is one thing, but giving yourself a humiliating and cruel death just to prove God loves humans is absurd. Moreover why does God have to humiliate himself to his own creation? Sorry if this is coming out the wrong way but it is very belittling to my idea of God.

 

[expounder]

Of course God did not die. He cannot die. Even when Jesus as a man died, he rose again, alive.

Jesus did not lie as far as I know. Lying is a sin to Jesus. I know some prophet allowed lying but not Jesus. I am not too sure what you are getting at. Or was that a typing error? Anyway, lying is not the same as dying.

Jesus is human in every way except sin. Jesus did not commit sin. If he sinned, then his death had no value because the price of sin is death - he is merely paying for his own sin.

So Jesus dies but he does not die because God can’t die? So where was the God part of Jesus while his human part was dead?

 

[Reuben_J]

@reuben
Loving your creation is one thing, but giving yourself a humiliating and cruel death just to prove God loves humans is absurd. Moreover why does God have to humiliate himself to his own creation? Sorry if this is coming out the wrong way but it is very belittling to my idea of God.

It is alright expunder. You can give your opinion and what you believe. Just watch out a bit on your words so that it will not against the Forum’s rule. Otherwise not to worry. I think we can take whatever disagreement there is.

Love, they say can sometimes be unfathomable, can be absurd. To us, this is what makes God great.

 

[Reuben_J]

So Jesus dies but he does not die because God can’t die? So where was the God part of Jesus while his human part was dead?

Not so sure what you mean here. My guess then. Are you saying that when Jesus died, where was He?

Jesus, according to our belief when he died, he descended to the place where dead souls are. After three days he rose again from the dead.

Where was God then? Since God is omnipotent, He must be everywhere.

 

[expounder]

Not so sure what you mean here. My guess then. Are you saying that when Jesus died, where was He?

Jesus, according to our belief when he died, he descended to the place where dead souls are. After three days he rose again from the dead.

Where was God then? Since God is omnipotent, He must be everywhere.

I think your talking about purgatory, isn’t that the place souls go to to cleanse themselves of sin? So jesus’ soul was for 3 days cleansing sins even though he did not commit sin?

 

[expounder]

Also why would God have soul if he is omnipresent? A soul confines someone to one place

 

[expounder]

Could you tell me what it means when it says that God created man in his image?

 

[Reuben_J]

I think your talking about purgatory, isn’t that the place souls go to to cleanse themselves of sin? So jesus’ soul was for 3 days cleansing sins even though he did not commit sin?

Not purgatory. Purgatory is where a soul goes after judgment. It can go either to Purgatory, Heaven or Hell, depending on the judgment.

The place may be called Limbo, others may have a different name for it. Thus it is a place before the souls are placed before they are judged.

 

[Reuben_J]

Also why would God have soul if he is omnipresent? A soul confines someone to one place

This is for a theologian to explain and I am sorry I am not up to that.

 

[expounder]

Not purgatory. Purgatory is where a soul goes after judgment. It can go either to Purgatory, Heaven or Hell, depending on the judgment.

The place may be called Limbo, others may have a different name for it. Thus it is a place before the souls are placed before they are judged.

I notice that the unbaptised and people before the coming of Jesus will be going to limbo. What exactly does that entail? i.e. are they not punished if they did commit sin?

 

[Reuben_J]

Could you tell me what it means when it says that God created man in his image?

We believe that human is made up of three distinct features. They are body, mind and spirit. The body is what we can see, the physical aspect of us. The mind is our inner self or soul. The spirit in the unseen part of us and can never die. We are made in God’s image as in our spirit.

 

[expounder]

This is for a theologian to explain and I am sorry I am not up to that.

np, I suppose i can ask my RS teacher
unless someone else can answer

 

[Reuben_J]

I notice that the unbaptised and people before the coming of Jesus will be going to limbo. What exactly does that entail? i.e. are they not punished if they did commit sin?

I do not have much expertise here but I can try. In Catholicism, limbo is not very much in the picture. The unbaptized are judged together with the baptized on their merit. Depending on the judgment of their conduct on earth, in theory they can be sent to any of the three places - heaven, purgatory or hell.

The wisdom for Limbo is the place before judgment.

 

[LtTony]

Muslims allege Jesus did not die on the cross but God made it appear that way to the witnesses.

To add to God’s deception Muslims also allege the Christians fabricated the bible. As if God’s deception wasn’t bad enough, the Christians added additional fuel to the fire.

I have no idea how that works…please explain?

To me, these are the two biggest downfalls of Islam.

Muslims spend a lot of time, at least on the internet, “proving” Islam by “disproving” Christianity. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ are central to Christianity, yet Islam – Mohammad specifically – is unable to generate a counter-theme other than “they killed him not.”

Incredibly vague for a religion (Islam) that claims to be so logical and compelling with scientific facts. Somehow everyone was led to believe Jesus was executed. Somehow. Either by a mirage or a stand-in. All the explanations of the (God’s) deception – problematic in and of itself – are from extra-Koranic and extra-Hadith sources, I believe. Stories, suppositions, but nothing Islamically official or plausibe. Jesus was the messiah, but not killed.

Big hole, in my opinion. But the smart play if you’re Mohammad. Don’t try to explain something away that you can’t. If the false prophet had offered an explanation, it would be targeted. Difficult to hit a moving target, let alone an invisible one.

Judaism is in an entirely different situation. One that can be argued, religiously speaking, imo. Atheists, too. I have much more respect for their claims or disbelief than Islam’s. Islam has put itself in a corner by going the “We kinda believe in Jesus” route.

The claim of corrupted scripture is similar but not as stark. Simply put: if one is to claim 600 years later that a document has been altered, better provide the original. They can’t. Muslims can’t produce the so-called Injeel. They also can’t get it through their heads that the concept of scripture in Christianity (i.e. the Bible) is entirely different than the Koran, the alleged literal and dictated word of God.

 

[jakasaki]

They been taught that the Injeel was a book given to Christ and is now lost.

 

[LtTony]

@reuben
Loving your creation is one thing, but giving yourself a humiliating and cruel death just to prove God loves humans is absurd. Moreover why does God have to humiliate himself to his own creation? Sorry if this is coming out the wrong way but it is very belittling to my idea of God.

Absurd according to Islam and its idea of God. Any loving parent, for example, would do that for their child.

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin
(deuteronomy 24:16)

So we’re saying God abrogated his own teachings?

Exodus 32:30-35
King James Version (KJV)
30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin–; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

35 And the Lord plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

Even here we see that God rejects the illogical notion but carries out justice to the perpetrators not moses as a scapegoat

You need to read all of Deuteronomy 24. It has nothing to do with salvation and the sacrifice of Christ. There is no teaching to be “abrogated.”

Same for Exodus. Plenty of innocents suffer on earth because of the sins of others. Others suffer as part of God’s plan. For instance, the “Massacre of the Innocents.”

What i don’t understand is why God would need to sacrifice himself on the cross just to forgive humans for their sins???
This is like putting limitations on God, saying that he can only do this if he does that, this is clearly blasphemous.

God can do anything He wants.

As someone else wrote: " It can be a limitation if God is forced to do it. It is not when God wants to do it. There’s the difference. "