Muslims: Why would God make a revelation that is contradictory to the revelation of Jesus?

[Servant19]

You reject the New testament and Christian doctrine that Christ is God, this is what was originally meant when the Christian says Christ is divine.

Yes I appreciate that Christianity defines the word “divinity” to actually mean God.

Can you show me where in the New Testament, as you claim, that Christ is God please?

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Yes I appreciate that Christianity defines the word “divinity” to actually mean God.

Can you show me where in the New Testament, as you claim, that Christ is God please?

.

That is a topic which deserves its own thread does it not? That is a topic so huge that two thousand years of discussion has been produced around and for this. There are thousands of books, essays and etc concerning this. If you want to discuss this, open a thread asking where is Christ God in the New testament and tomorrow I will respond.

But since you recognise that Christians define divinity differently from you, why do you insist, when speaking on a Christian forum on saying Muhammad is divine? Are you actively trying to give the wrong impression? Will you stop from now on? Will you use a more appropiate word like spirit maybe? Like manifestation maybe and then define what a manifestation is when asked? You must realize this confuses everyone when you use language like this? But I am actually convinced you do do it on purpose and you get a kick out of saying “no you got it all wrong,” when Christians respond to your vaguely defined doctrines which you never define.

 

[Servant19]

Jesus is God. Muhammad is God. Buddha is God. Ali Hussein is God.

But in the same breath you can also say. Jesus is not God. Muhammad is not God. Buddha is not God. Ali Hussein is Not God.

Do you see how you are unnecessarily complicating things? Is it not obvious?

Do you understand the dual nature of these Messengers of God Ignatian???

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Do you understand the dual nature of these Messengers of God Ignatian???

.

I understand you have an understanding that they once participated in a human nature (abandoning it after their short lives) but at the same time also had a spiritual nature. That spiritual or non physical nature however is Not God’s nature is it? But rather an essence which is unique to a manifestation but distinct from a human soul. For if the manifestation partakes of the same nature as God then you really should be worshiping them as God, not merely offering some veneration to them.

 

[Servant19]

That is a topic which deserves its own thread does it not? That is a topic so huge that two thousand years of discussion has been produced around and for this. There are thousands of books, essays and etc concerning this. If you want to discuss this, open a thread asking where is Christ God in the New testament and tomorrow I will respond.

But since you recognise that Christians define divinity differently from you, why do you insist, when speaking on a Christian forum on saying Muhammad is divine? Are you actively trying to give the wrong impression? Will you stop from now on? Will you use a more appropiate word like spirit maybe? Like manifestation maybe and then define what a manifestation is when asked? You must realize this confuses everyone when you use language like this? But I am actually convinced you do do it on purpose and you get a kick out of saying “no you got it all wrong,” when Christians respond to your vaguely defined doctrines which you never define.

Ok I’ll just say that Muhammad is spirit from now on…

How about you present your statements to this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=844201&page=18

…

 

[Servant19]

That spiritual or non physical nature however is Not God’s nature is it?

How on earth would I know for sure. I am an ant…He is the Almighty. What is the spiritual nature of Jesus, are you kidding me? You claim to know, here’s what Baha’u’llah has to say on the subject, and you claim to know what Baha’u’llah is stating here? You must be super smart!

Please read the first sentence 20 times…

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He verily speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine!” And also He saith: “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.” And were any of them to voice the utterance: “I am the Messenger of God,” He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: “Muḥammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God.” Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. And were they all to proclaim: “I am the Seal of the Prophets,” they verily utter but the truth, beyond the faintest shadow of doubt. For they are all but one person, one soul, one spirit, one being, one revelation. They are all the manifestation of the “Beginning” and the “End,” the “First” and the “Last,” the “Seen” and “Hidden”—all of which pertain to Him Who is the innermost Spirit of Spirits and eternal Essence of Essences. And were they to say: “We are the servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of being were deeply immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of divine mysteries, they claimed their utterance to be the Voice of divinity, the Call of God Himself. Were the eye of discernment to be opened, it would recognize that in this very state, they have considered themselves utterly effaced and non-existent in the face of Him Who is the All-Pervading, the Incorruptible. Methinks, they have regarded themselves as utter nothingness, and deemed their mention in that Court an act of blasphemy. For the slightest whispering of self, within such a Court, is an evidence of self-assertion and independent existence. In the eyes of them that have attained unto that Court, such a suggestion is itself a grievous transgression. How much more grievous would it be, were aught else to be mentioned in that Presence, were man’s heart, his tongue, his mind, or his soul, to be busied with anyone but the Well-Beloved, were his eyes to behold any countenance other than His beauty, were his ear to be inclined to any melody but His voice, and were his feet to tread any way but His way.

In this day the breeze of God is wafted, and His Spirit hath pervaded all things. Such is the outpouring of His grace that the pen is stilled and the tongue is speechless.

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-6.html

.

 

[tonyfish58]

That is God to you seems to mean many things.

Jesus is God. Muhammad is God. Buddha is God. Ali Hussein is God.

But in the same breath you can also say. Jesus is not God. Muhammad is not God. Buddha is not God. Ali Hussein is Not God.

Do you see how you are unnecessarily complicating things? Is it not obvious?

IgnatianPhilo - It is not complicated if you read the Words of God revealed by Baha’u’llah.

But I understand it would be if you do not choose to do this.

It is the Sun and Mirror analogy.

God the Sun, the Holy Spirit the rays of Light, Christ the perfect unblemished Mirror.

Does God descend into and become the mirror? No, but you will always see the Perfect Reflection of God the Sun in Christ the perfect unblemished Mirror. Thus God and Christ are One at the same time God is Greater than Christ.

This is a Trinity that is knowable and plausible and opens the door to the Oneness of God, His Purpose and His Prophets.

We can only know God via this Mirror.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

"Why would God make a revelation that is contradictory to the revelation of Jesus"?

I think what this thread shows is that the differences or contradictions are all man made.

The writings of Muhammad in the Koran Show the One God revealed in the Religions, as do the Baha’i Writings. If one chooses to look for the connection.

If one wishes to find only Contradiction then God will always allow that person to exercise their Free Will to do so.

God Bless all and Regards Tony

 

[jakasaki]

For the life of me, I don’t understand why Ba’ha posts are referenced in any thread that does not pertain to them.

Thread is about Muslims/Islam/Jesus/Revelation… NOT Ba’ha…!!!

 

[Servant19]

For the life of me, I don’t understand why Ba’ha posts are referenced in any thread that does not pertain to them.

Thread is about Muslims/Islam/Jesus/Revelation… NOT Ba’ha…!!!

Yes dear friend, we do strive to keep it on topic, but it’s usually posters with some axe to grind that start criticisizing the Baha’is at any opportunity …go back to page 1 of this thread and read who was the first to bring the word Bahai to this thread…

…please note, that certain post was IGNORED, but the poster insisted on bringing Bahai back into the thread…



.

 

[meltzerboy]

"Why would God make a revelation that is contradictory to the revelation of Jesus"?

I think what this thread shows is that the differences or contradictions are all man made.

The writings of Muhammad in the Koran Show the One God revealed in the Religions, as do the Baha’i Writings. If one chooses to look for the connection.

If one wishes to find only Contradiction then God will always allow that person to exercise their Free Will to do so.

God Bless all and Regards Tony

The concern, however, is that if the differences are man made, the religion might also be.

 

[livingwordunity]

As far as I know Islam has four prophets - Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed. The greatest prophet in Islam is Jesus NOT Mohammed.

That’s strange that they would believe this but show no sign of this belief. All of what they do suggests that they believe that Muhammad was greater than Jesus. People tend to talk a lot about who they love. Muslims talk all the time about Muhammad while almost never mentioning Jesus unless asked.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ok I’ll just say that Muhammad is spirit from now on…

How about you present your statements to this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=844201&page=18

…

Its better to open a thread dealing with the topic in its totality. What the good news is not necessarily that Jesus is one person in the Godhead but is rather a multitude of essential teachings. I won’t divert a thread if It can be helped.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

IgnatianPhilo - It is not complicated if you read the Words of God revealed by Baha’u’llah.

But I understand it would be if you do not choose to do this.

It is the Sun and Mirror analogy.

God the Sun, the Holy Spirit the rays of Light, Christ the perfect unblemished Mirror.

Does God descend into and become the mirror? No, but you will always see the Perfect Reflection of God the Sun in Christ the perfect unblemished Mirror. Thus God and Christ are One at the same time God is Greater than Christ.

This is a Trinity that is knowable and plausible and opens the door to the Oneness of God, His Purpose and His Prophets.

We can only know God via this Mirror.

God Bless and Regards Tony

When trying to explain your theology to a people of another religion which has a defined system already of speaking about God, something you are no doubt aware of, what is the best approach? Force them to understand your usage of these words? Or use them misleadingly whenever possible? I will confess, often times it seems to me that hte bahai use their language in such a way as to appear in agreement with whomever it is while they will flatly say something that appears contradictory. I have no doubt in my mind that if a Muslim were to ask you who Muhammad was you would not say he was God and that if you were forced to admit you call him God you work as hard as humanly possible to explain that he is not the ultimate God. You don’t seem to want to do this with the Christian. WHenever possible you will say “we agree with you! Jesus is divine!” Yet the bahai know what Christians mean by saying Jesus is divine. When we say Jesus is divine we literally mean he is divinity, he is in his essence God, not something other than God.

This is why I am convinced of a duplicitous use of language by bahai and why I beg that you try to define your theology in a way which makes sense to outsiders. All attempts have been rendered useless however as I have to again and again stress that when I say something that you could possibly twist (like Jesus is God) that i actually mean what I say. Its ultimately more beneficial to talk with a muslim because at least I know where he might stand on most issues but where a bahai stands on any one issue is totally dependent on that individual bahai to define. You are not unified in how you speak about God, how you quote scripture, how you do anything, except in trying to appear peaceful and loving. That only works on certain individuals.

Now what you have described is not really the trinity. The light itself which emanates from the sun is not of the same substance as the sun which is flatly against the trinitarian orthodoxy of Christianity. the light and the sun are not really one, except in purpose, not in their sharing the same substance of divinity. Thus I cannot understand why you say Jesus is God, it only confuses the issue and demands you explain yourself. Yet the bahai have been reluctant to say “He’s not really God God, the God that is, but rather a servent of the One God.” Your beliefs could be easily shared yet you cannot convey them except in this very hard to understand manner. I have already helped define your beliefs, the manifestations are super spiritual entities which are greater than human souls but lesser than God. You can still use the sun analogy to convey their relationship but that doesn’t convey how you clearly believe God is a Unitarian entity.

 

[openmind77]

That’s strange that they would believe this but show no sign of this belief. All of what they do suggests that they believe that Muhammad was greater than Jesus. People tend to talk a lot about who they love. Muslims talk all the time about Muhammad while almost never mentioning Jesus unless asked.

Muslims do believe that Muhammad was the final Prophet (so he is the most important) and with him the revelation of God is complete.

Jesus is an important Prophet too, especially since he will be returning with the Imam Mahdi to bring peace to the world.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Muslims do believe that Muhammad was the final Prophet (so he is the most important) and with him the revelation of God is complete.

Jesus is an important Prophet too, especially since he will be returning with the Imam Mahdi to bring peace to the world.

Thus the point of disagreement by many. Still there has to be some equivalence to the prophets. Or is Mohammed also the greatest of the prophets?

How does Jesus bring peace to the world?

 

[openmind77]

Thus the point of disagreement by many. Still there has to be some equivalence to the prophets. Or is Mohammed also the greatest of the prophets?

How does Jesus bring peace to the world?

I am not sure whether they think Muhammad is the greatest, he is definitely the final one. Maybe he is the greatest since the Koran is perfect and complete (or so they believe).

Jesus will actually come after the Mahdi and help him bring justice to the world and destroy tyranny - that will bring peace.

 

[livingwordunity]

I am not sure whether they think Muhammad is the greatest, he is definitely the final one. Maybe he is the greatest since the Koran is perfect and complete (or so they believe).

Jesus will actually come after the Mahdi and help him bring justice to the world and destroy tyranny - that will bring peace.

Since Muslims believe that what Jesus left us got corrupted but that what Muhammad left behind somehow remains pure and uncorrupted it only makes sense to conclude that Muslims believe that Muhammad is the greater of the two. I think when Muslims talk about how they respect Jesus it’s only to make Islam seem compatible and appealing to Westerners who aren’t aware of the differences between Islam and Christianity so that some might be fooled and become Muslim. But there is actually an infinite degree of difference between the two religions since we believe that Jesus is God and they do not.

 

[jakasaki]

Thus the point of disagreement by many. Still there has to be some equivalence to the prophets. Or is Mohammed also the greatest of the prophets?

How does Jesus bring peace to the world?

According to Muslims Isa will bring peace to the world by destroying Christianity and all other religions and make everyone on earth a Muslim practicing Islam and Islam alone.

This is the only way the world will have peace - by everyone becoming Muslims!

 

[MartinJordan]

This is the only way the world will have peace - by everyone becoming Muslims!

I thought Abraham, Isaac, David and the rest were already Muslim back in the OT? It didn’t bring peace then.

MJ