Muslims

[SteveG]

MariaG:

Ahh. Lets try this again. All my work got lost!

Don’t you hate when that happens. I started doing anything longer than few sentences in word, then copying it over.

MariaG:

but I do this to help any who do not own a catechism themselves.

Doesn’t everyone own at least two
In any event, a couple on-line tools that folks in the forum might find useful…

1. On-line Catechism…
   vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
   …which even has a linked index.
2. On-line RSV bible…
   etext.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html
   …Most folks probably have both already, but figured just in case.

 

[MariaG]

That’s a great online catechism. The best one I’ve seen yet. Thanks for the information.:clapping:

God Bless
Maria

 

[Vincent]

Muslims are in the plan of salvation.

The plan is for them to repent of their sins, believe in Jesus Christ and be baptised in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

The plan is for them to come into communion with Jesus Christ by being members of His Body, the fullness of which is found only in the Catholic Church.

Muslims who knowingly and willingly refuse this plan of salvation cannot be saved.

 

[MariaG]

You are right vincent, those who knowingly and willingly refuse Christ. Those who no fault of their own do not know Christ, but seek God with a true heart can be saved by Christ even though they do not know Him.

 

[delorean_boy]

well, to me it seems to say that everyone is in the plan of salvation. whether we choose to take part in that plan or not would dictate our being saved or damned. is this correct?

 

[1962Missal]

homer:

Ok i can see that i will not get a explanation. To be honest that’s what i expected and it only made my belief in Jesus Christ stronger. I hope this post will make some people re-read their Bible carefully and find the truth.

Therein lies the heart of the matter, doesn’t it? You are not looking for explanations, at all. You are coming here with all of your opinions pre-set and are looking to make everyone else call theirs into question. You are, quite simply, too comfortably complacent with your own opinions to ever use your mental muscles to engage the ideas presented to you. You continually claim, “You cannot answer my questions”, when in reality what you mean is, “I dismiss all your answers out of hand because I am too complacent to bother with them.”

Justin

 

[homer]

1962Missal if you gave me an answer to my question i wouldn’t have said so.

I have come to this forum to see the Catholic point of view but for every question i post i don’t get a straight convincing answer.

This question is so simple:

1- The Bible says that Jesus is the only way to God.
2- The Catechism says that if a person is not a member of the Catholic Church he will not be saved. ( Contradicts 3)
3- The Catechism says that Muslims will be saved because they worship the creator (No mention of Jesus). (Contradicts 1 and 2)

 

[Vincent]

delorean_boy:

well, to me it seems to say that everyone is in the plan of salvation. whether we choose to take part in that plan or not would dictate our being saved or damned. is this correct?

As I understand it, yes.

Everyone is in the plan of salvation, in order:

1. *]Catholics
   *]Non-Catholic Christians
   *]Jews
   *]Others “who acknowledge the Creator”, the first of whom are Muslims
   *]Everybody else
   
   Catholics have accepted this plan and have been saved, but if they do not persevere in charity, they reject this plan and forfeit salvation.
   
   I recommend reading Lumen Gentium 13-16.

 

[Vincent]

3- The Catechism says that Muslims will be saved because they worship the creator (No mention of Jesus). (Contradicts 1 and 2)

Being included in the plan of salvation doesn’t necessarily mean that one will be saved. Read post 23.

 

[1962Missal]

1962Missal if you gave me an answer to my question i wouldn’t have said so.

I have come to this forum to see the Catholic point of view but for every question i post i don’t get a straight convincing answer.

This question is so simple

1- The Bible says that Jesus is the only way to God.

Yes, but it is unclear just how explicit or detailed belief in Jesus must be in order for God to find it acceptable. Might an implicit belief among those who have never properly received the Gospel not be judged sufficient by God, in His infinite mercy? Or must that belief be quite explicit and detailed such as:

Following, then, the holy fathers, we unite in teaching all men to confess the one and only Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. This selfsame one is perfect both in deity and in humanness; this selfsame one is also actually God and actually man, with a rational soul and a body. He is of the same reality as God as far as his deity is concerned and of the same reality as we ourselves as far as his humanness is concerned; thus like us in all respects, sin only excepted. Before time began he was begotten of the Father, in respect of his deity, and now in these “last days,” for us and behalf of our salvation, this selfsame one was born of Mary the virgin, who is God-bearer in respect of his humanness.

We also teach that we apprehend this one and only Christ-Son, Lord, only-begotten – in two natures; and we do this without confusing the two natures, without transmuting one nature into the other, without dividing them into two separate categories, without contrasting them according to area or function. The distinctiveness of each nature is not nullified by the union. Instead, the “properties” of each nature are conserved and both natures concur in one “person” and in one reality . They are not divided or cut into two persons, but are together the one and only and only-begotten Word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ. Thus have the prophets of old testified; thus the Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us; thus the Symbol of Fathers has handed down to us.

The Definition of Chalcedon

By what standard can man decide if another man’s faith is sufficient?

2- The Catechism says that if a person is not a member of the Catholic Church he will not be saved. ( Contradicts 3)

No, it says that “they could not be saved who,* knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ**, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”* Please recognize the difference.

3

• The Catechism says that Muslims will be saved because they worship the creator (No mention of Jesus). (Contradicts 1 and 2).

No, it says that they are part of the plan of salvation, not that they will be saved.

You must recognize that the nuances within these statements make a world of difference to what they mean. Ignoring the nuances serves only to distort the statements.

Justin

 

[bengal_fan]

homer,
you are putting words in the mouths of catholics. everyone is saved by Jesus whether they know it or not. c.s. lewis (regarded by most protestants including myself as the greatest apologist of this century) held the same belief. if there is some one who doesn’t know the name or nature of Jesus but seeks to follow God in the way that He has placed in them (the law is written on the hearts of men) then Jesus can claim them as His own. that is what the catholic church teaches and many protestant denominations. i would suggest that if you want to get a catholic perspective on doctrinal issues, read some books by catholic apologists (scott hahn, stephen ray, karl keating, etc.) and not just lorraine boettner or jack chick (or even jimmy swaggart and bob jones). i know that you are just trying to share what you think is truth, but you are not doing it in love and you are embarrassing other protestants seeking to understand. also, just fyi, martin luther would not have split from the catholic church of today and most likely calvin would not have either.

 

[homer]

Of course it is not our job to judge.

1962Missal (No, it says that they are part of the plan of salvation, not that they will be saved.): You mean that at the beginning every person has the chance to be saved but if a Muslim heard about Jesus and died without accepting him in his life, he will not be saved?

bengal_fan: i say again we are not here to judge. Of course if a Muslim didn’t hear about Jesus that’s another story but if he did hear about him and didn’t accept him (which is the case nowadays because i think a great percentage of Muslims have heard about Jesus) then according to the Bible he will not be saved.

 

[bengal_fan]

homer,

homer:

Of course if a Muslim didn’t hear about Jesus that’s another story but if he did hear about him and didn’t accept him (which is the case nowadays because i think a great percentage of Muslims have heard about Jesus) then according to the Bible he will not be saved.

all muslims have heard the name seeing as he is a figure in their religion, but not all know his true nature. if they have been lied to about him they cannot make a true decision. some might say that this type of thought would cause missions to diminish but that is not true. missions are to reveal the truth about God and bring people to that knowledge so that they can experience the abundant life Jesus promised in Jn. 10:10.
in “The Last Battle” by c.s. lewis (the last book in the chronicles of narnia), lewis deals with this. there is a soldier who doesn’t worship aslan (Christ) but his enemy tash (found out to be a demon). somehow though he ends up in aslan’s country (heaven). he asks why, because he had always been taught that aslan was false and tash was true. aslan tells him that you cannot do good in tash’s name and you cannot do evil in aslan’s name. anyway…read the book and other c.s.lewis to see what i’m talking about.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

homer:

I have come to this forum to see the Catholic point of view but for every question i post i don’t get a straight convincing answer.

This question is so simple:

1- The Bible says that Jesus is the only way to God.
2- The Catechism says that if a person is not a member of the Catholic Church he will not be saved. ( Contradicts 3)
3- The Catechism says that Muslims will be saved because they worship the creator (No mention of Jesus). (Contradicts 1 and 2)

Homer! I don’t have time for a long explanatiaon, but some words:

1- In John 14.6 Jesus says: “… I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me”. This means that you are correct in your number one.

2- Jesus did not leave us alone without authorothy when he left for Heaven. He chose Peter and his apostles and gave Peter the keys: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Mat 16:19, RSV). The catholic cathechism is a a book were the intentions is to make the believeres understand better the belief of The Church Jesus himself instituted. Jesus has asked that we all may be one (John 17:21). To be saved is than to be saved because the chatholic churc exists. Remember Crist himself is the head of the Church.

Your number two don’t contradict your number one. Neither does it contradict your number three.

3- Here you are wrong: The cathechism don’t says that muslims will be saved. In CCC 841 The Church’s recognice the relationship with the Muslims. It don’t guarantee for them to be saved. CCC 846 to 848 says the following:

"846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

We must remember from the Bible that Jesus himself told us to spread his words among all the nations: “19: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20: teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Mat 28:19-20 RSV).

So who can it be that NOT have heard the word of Christ and therefore by no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel? That is not for us to know. Only God knows that.

If some or many muslems are saved (because they of no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel) it is because the existence of the Catholic Church. (The Church don’t reach everybody).Without the Church that Jesus himself instuituted and of wich HE is the HEAD, there is NO SALVATION!

I hope you see it, Homer, but your number three don’t disagree with your number one or your number two.

CONCLUSION:

1. The Bible says that Jesus is the only way to God.
2. The Catechism says that it is through the Catholic Church the faithful will be saved. Those who knows the truth and rejects it will not be saved.
3. The Catechism says that Muslims might be saved, too ,because they worship the creator. The Cathecism is open for that people of no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, can be saved, but it don’t promise them to be saved. If they are saved it is through Christ who is the head of the Catholic Church.

G.G.

 

[Vincent]

bengal_fan:

everyone is saved by Jesus whether they know it or not.

I think it’s more accurate to say: *if * someone is saved, he is saved by Jesus.

 

[bengal_fan]

Vincent:

I think it’s more accurate to say: *if * someone is saved, he is saved by Jesus.

very true vincent. thank you for the correction.

 

[SteveG]

Homer
In charity I say that this is my last try getting through to you unless you respond.

With regard to the particular issue being discussed, I have answered you in your own language-That of Scripture…
Romans 2:
*9: There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, **10: but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. **11: For God shows no partiality. **12: All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
*13: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. *14: When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. *15: They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them *16: on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the **secrets ***of men by Christ Jesus.

…and you have ignored it. No where does the Catechism say , or the Church teach that muslims ARE saved, but that they MAY be saved via Paul’s teaching above. This answers most of your objections.

And one last time, I’ll ask…How do you know the bible is the word of God. I ask this not because I doubt it. For my part, I know the answer to this question as I know the history of the bible and how it came to us. I doubt it not a bit. I am asking how YOU know it’s the word of God? Muslims say the Koran is the word of God, Mormons say the Book of Mormon is the word of God. How do **YOU **know you are right that the bible is the word of GOD and their books are not. I know the answer, but the question is do **YOU **know the answer.

In Love and Charity (still)

 

[Vincent]

homer:

You mean that at the beginning every person has the chance to be saved but if a Muslim heard about Jesus and died without accepting him in his life, he will not be saved?

Allow me to jump in here:

If a Muslim knowingly and willingly refuses to believe in Christ and come into communion with his Body the Church, he will not be saved. He has heard that he’s included in the plan of salvation, but he rejects it.

If someone, through no fault of his own, doesn’t know about Christ and the invitation to join his Body the Church, he may be saved. He hasn’t heard that he’s included in the plan of salvation, so he cannot reject anything he does not know.

May be saved doesn’t mean will be saved. There’s a difference between what is potential and what is actual, between what is possible and what is necessary.

Even though one ***may ***be saved in a position of invincible ignorance, there are ways to blow that possibility of salvation so that one ***will not ** * be saved, in the end.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

Some extra about salvation, Homer!

Clik on ‘S’ at the link, then clik on ‘Salvation’! Wen finished with ‘Salvation’ go to ‘Saving events’

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/index/s.htm

Good luck and God Bless!

G.G.

 

[quasimodo]

Silmarillion:

Homer
In charity I say that this is my last try getting through to you unless you respond.

With regard to the particular issue being discussed, I have answered you in your own language-That of Scripture…
Romans 2:
*9: There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, **10: but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. **11: For God shows no partiality. **12: All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
*13: For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. *14: When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. *15: They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them *16: on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the **secrets ***of men by Christ Jesus.

…and you have ignored it. No where does the Catechism say , or the Church teach that muslims ARE saved, but that they MAY be saved via Paul’s teaching above. This answers most of your objections.

And one last time, I’ll ask…How do you know the bible is the word of God. I ask this not because I doubt it. For my part, I know the answer to this question as I know the history of the bible and how it came to us. I doubt it not a bit. I am asking how YOU know it’s the word of God? Muslims say the Koran is the word of God, Mormons say the Book of Mormon is the word of God. How do **YOU **know you are right that the bible is the word of GOD and their books are not. I know the answer, but the question is do **YOU **know the answer.

In Love and Charity (still)

well said Silmarillion. It should be noted that when Paul said Greek, he did not mean Christian. Greek meant non-Jews.