Muslims

[A.Pelliccio]

Doers? Now is that killing Christians and Jews, cutting off heads, and blowing up buses full of children? Im proud to be an “infidel!”

 

[SteveG]

A.Pelliccio:

Doers? Now is that killing Christians and Jews, cutting off heads, and blowing up buses full of children? Im proud to be an “infidel!”

What in God’s green earth are you talking about!? This discussion has been about the POSSIBILITY of non-catholics to be saved. We were highlighting that if someone is invincibly ignorant of the gospel, but lives it’s truth written on every human heart, they MAY be saved (still only through Christ, though they know it not), not that every muslim (or Catholic for that matter) is automatically saved regardless of what they do.

No one was defending the reprehensible acts committed by some muslims. But if you are going to say that ALL muslims are murderers of children and innocents, then your as bad as those secularists who say ‘look at what Christian do in the name of Christ. They burned witches, they blahblahblah.’ To blanket all muslims as folks who blow up buses with children, cut peoples heads off, etc. is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Charles]

homer:

Ok i can see that i will not get a explanation. To be honest that’s what i expected and it only made my belief in Jesus Christ stronger. I hope this post will make some people re-read their Bible carefully and find the truth.

I hope people will not use their Bible’s to condemn entire populations. It is one thing to say that there are people who will not make it to Heaven (though as I understand it the Church has never categorically stated that any particular person has been so condemned). That is a valid use of the Bible. It is also valid to use the word of God to inspire people to change course in their life, return to the Church of God, and repent their sins. Again, a valid use of the Bible.

There seems, however, to be an undercurrent in the tone of several posts in this thread that are less than commendable. I can almost detect glee at the opportunity to condemn people to hell in several of these posts. I base this on the fact that in few posts do I hear any discussion of how to share our faith, how to approach Moslems in a way that will encourage them to listen to us, the need for us to love our neighbor (remember who our neighbor is according to Jesus…), and any kind of reminder of our commission made by Christ at his ascension.

Hopefully I’m just misinterpreting the motivations for so many of these posts. I’m still fairly new to this form of communication and without the visual and verbal cues I’m used to in face to face meetings, it can be hard to understand a person’s true motivation for posting the things they do.

 

[Carrie_Andrews]

I think the simple explanation would be it is the obstinate refusal to believe, rather then the unablity to believe that sends a soul to hell. I agree the comments about chopping off heads are not in this discussion, but if we want to play the barbarian card, I think we should start in our own house. Aren’t we the ones chopping live babys to bits with no pain killers in the mothers womb?

God Bless you in your search for the trueth, Homer.

 

[1962Missal]

1962Missal if you gave me an answer to my question i wouldn’t have said so.

I have come to this forum to see the Catholic point of view but for every question i post i don’t get a straight convincing answer.

Homer, it is not our place to convince you, or anyone, of anything. We would like to give you a straight, reasonable, and *persuasive * answer. If we have done that much, then we have done well. If you are not convinced, but you see that what is said is reasonable and deserving of consideration, then we have not failed.

It is for the grace of God to do the convincing:

Therefore, neither he that planteth is any thing, nor he that watereth: but God that giveth the increase.

1 Corinthians 3:7

Justin

 

[system]

Alright, I’ve read enough of this ****. I’m new here, so I’m just going to tell it straight out.

I. Homer, you’re wrong.

II. The promises and teachings of Jesus Christ are bound to the Church, but can extend beyond it. It depends if you live a good life, etc.

III. The Church does not contradict the Bible in any way. You’re just trying to find something to moan about.

Homer, it’s been nice seeing your argument, but…

GAME OVER.

 

[_Christopher]

3- The Catechism says that Muslims will be saved because they worship the creator (No mention of Jesus). (Contradicts 1 and 2)

That is NOT what the Catechism says. That is what you are reading into it…for the tenth time.

You mean that at the beginning every person has the chance to be saved but if a Muslim heard about Jesus and died without accepting him in his life, he will not be saved?

Right, if the Muslim truly heard the truth about Jesus and refused the grace to accept Him, he would be not saved.

Just like if you, having had a chance to truly hear that the Catholic Church is the true Church, but refuse to enter it, you will not be saved either.

You need to worry about your own salvation instead of trying to damn the Muslims and the Catholics.

 

[Carrie_Andrews]

Carrie Andrews:

I think the simple explanation would be it is the obstinate refusal to believe, rather then the unablity to believe that sends a soul to hell. I agree the comments about chopping off heads are not in this discussion, but if we want to play the barbarian card, I think we should start in our own house. Aren’t we the ones chopping live babys to bits with no pain killers in the mothers womb?

God Bless you in your search for the trueth, Homer.

“All human interactions are opportunities either to learn or to teach”. F. Scott Peck

 

[Tim_Hayes]

Homer, tell me, all those people in the world for the last 2000 years since Christ, who never heard of him, and that would be many millions who never even heard his name let alone those who may have heard the name but nothing else about Christianity, are all those people in Hell, The answer is yes or no.

Tell us which one it is.

 

[homer]

Tim Hayes:

Homer, tell me, all those people in the world for the last 2000 years since Christ, who never heard of him, and that would be many millions who never even heard his name let alone those who may have heard the name but nothing else about Christianity, are all those people in Hell, The answer is yes or no.

Tell us which one it is.

I already have said that we are talking about Muslim who knew Jesus and didn’t accept him as a savior. If someone didn’t hear about Jesus and died than God will judge him in a right way, it is not our job here to judge or try to figure out the answer. But the Catholic Catechism says that Muslims are included in the plan of salvation because they worship God and something about Abraham (Refer to the beginning of the thread).

I think that if a Muslim knew Jesus and didn’t accept him than he will not be saved because this is what the Bible tells us and in my opinion this Muslim cannot be worshipping the same God i worship because my God sent his son to die for me while his god sent him a prophet and a Qur’an that teaches that Jesus was only a prophet and not the Son of God.

 

[1962Missal]

homer:

I already have said that we are talking about Muslim who knew Jesus and didn’t accept him as a savior. If someone didn’t hear about Jesus and died than God will judge him in a right way, it is not our job here to judge or try to figure out the answer. But the Catholic Catechism says that Muslims are included in the plan of salvation because they worship God and something about Abraham (Refer to the beginning of the thread).

I think that if a Muslim knew Jesus and didn’t accept him than he will not be saved because this is what the Bible tells us and in my opinion this Muslim cannot be worshipping the same God i worship because my God sent his son to die for me while his god sent him a prophet and a Qur’an that teaches that Jesus was only a prophet and not the Son of God.

This is the quote in the Catechism, in context, from the orignal document which the Catechism quotes:

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

Basically, all people are included in the plan of salvation, because God wills all men to be saved. Once again, being included in the plan of salvation **does not ** mean that one is saved.

Justin