Muslims4Lent

[Servant19]

We believe that the OT is ultimately fulfilled in Jesus Christ, God’s final revelation of himself to man. Thus, anyone subsequent to Jesus Christ who preaches a Gospel other than what was given to the Apostles, who denies the crucifixion and bodily resurrection of Jesus and who denies that our salvation lies in Christ alone is a false prophet. Therefore the Quran, if written by a false prophet, is from a different source than the OT, which we believe to be the inerrant word of God.

Yes, thank you Steve, but one cannot legitimately state that this is a genuinely objective observation of the contents of the Quran in comparison to the OT to determine the truth of their respective contents and the origins of their Revelation.

.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

…so would you mind sharing how one can determine that the OT is true therefore?

.

Top right of this comment, see the entry for Religion, review teachings of the faith entered in regards to its views on the OT.

 

[Servant19]

Top right of this comment, see the entry for Religion, review teachings of the faith entered in regards to its views on the OT.

I would appreciate a link dear friend

.

 

[Mystophilus]

Yes, and I’m asking for who you think wrote the Quran. You seem to have no issue objecting to people stating that Muhammad made it up, so I’d assume you would have no issue sharing who you think wrote it.

I have no problem objecting to people accusing someone else of fabricating something when they themselves lack sufficient information to be able to make any such claim.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I have no problem objecting to people accusing someone else of fabricating something when they themselves lack sufficient information to be able to make any such claim.

And you still haven’t actually answered the question. Who do you think wrote the Quran?

 

[SjMelnychuk]

…so would you mind sharing how one can determine that the OT is true therefore?

.

A good place to start would be to research all the archeological evidence that prove that the history recorded in the bible was true.

For example:

Noah and the Ark (the Ark has been found and non-biblical sources talk of a world wide flood)

Moses leading Israel on dry ground across a river
(Stones / alters were found on both side plus chariots and human remains found at the bottom - FOUND)

Oh and there’s more archeological evidence to prove that Jesus lived and died on the cross than there is to prove the existence of any Ceasar) not to mention I doubt people would willingly die for a lie so the Martyrdom of all the Apostles speak profoundly and yes there is enough evidence to prove these Apostles and lived and died for the faith.

There’s a tone of resources you can find.

CS Lewis - set out as an Atheist to disprove the Bible and at the end of his attempt he became a Christian.

There’s also a book written by Lee Stroble called Case For Christ. You might find a lot of information because Lee Stroble also set out to disprove the bible and who Jesus Christ claimed to be. He set out, like a lawyer to bring to the table as if Jesus was on trial in court so to speak. It’s a very good intellectual book yet written in an easy to read format.

In other words, if you were to put the bible in a court of law to prove the validation of Sacred Scripture the Bible would be proved to be all that Christians both Protestant and Catholic claims. The only thing is, this is research that you’re going to have to look into.

The Qu’ran would never stand up to such scrutiny.
Last, take a look at Mohammed, seen as the last of all Prophets. His character and the things he stood for were in opposition to both Judaism and Christianity. A good example of his character being that he forced a child into marriage with him.

This isn’t to say you can’t find Muslims who are good because just like there’s good and bad Christians there are good and bad Muslims.

Islam rejects who Jesus truly is. If you read Case For Christ by Lee Stroble you’ll see the inconsistency of the Qu’ran when speaking of Jesus. Islam teaches that Jesus didn’t even die on the cross let alone raise from the dead.

 

[Mongo]

Apparently there is a hash tag going around on Twitter called #muslimsforlent. I have no personal opinion on this as I do not wish to open up debate on who can observe Lenten disciplines. I do want to express my concern that this pseudo adoption of “giving up things for Lent” by muslims could cause strife within muslim families who might wrongly assume that a young muslim taking part in this show of solidarity might be lured away from their muslim faith. The young person might understand that what they are doing is merely symbolic but their parents might not “get it” and even in America there are horrific stories of honor killings (specifically by fathers of their daughters) carried out to prevent a child from converting to christianity.

The sentiment that these young muslims are expressing in their symbolic sharing of the lenten season with christians is very admirable and filled with great love but it is not worth the misunderstandings that might occur.

What we christians would like from all non-christians is prayers to God for peace and genuine compassion and understanding between all peoples-regardless of their faith.

Pray for an end to the violence that is taking the lives of innocents.

Pray for the end of abortion which takes the unborn innocents.

Pray for the rejection of all forms of immorality, which seeks to ruin young lives and endanger souls.

Love one another and defend those who cannot defend themselves.

Live lives of virtue that will inspire others to do likewise.

Most important be true to yourselves and steadfast in your faith, trusting in God always and in all things.

Thank you and may you continue to be blessed.

On the other hand, the acts of these muslims may actually be a fulfillment of all of those things. You can’t have peace unless someone decides to be peacefully. And its not going to simply happen one day that all men happen to be peaceful. People will have to take risks.

It reminds me of the parable of the man who gets caught in the flood and continually rejects all help because ‘God is gonna save me’. The guy dies and he asks God why he didn’t help him. God says, I sent you a log, a boat, and a helicopter.

 

[Mystophilus]

And you still haven’t actually answered the question. Who do you think wrote the Quran?

Actually, I did: “Historically speaking,” it was “apparently dictated to scribes by Muhammad, and compiled by others.” That is the whole answer for which data are available.

 

[Servant19]

A good place to start would be to research all the archeological evidence that prove that the history recorded in the bible was true.

For example:

Noah and the Ark (the Ark has been found and non-biblical sources talk of a world wide flood)

Moses leading Israel on dry ground across a river
(Stones / alters were found on both side plus chariots and human remains found at the bottom - FOUND)

Oh and there’s more archeological evidence to prove that Jesus lived and died on the cross than there is to prove the existence of any Ceasar) not to mention I doubt people would willingly die for a lie so the Martyrdom of all the Apostles speak profoundly and yes there is enough evidence to prove these Apostles and lived and died for the faith.

There’s a tone of resources you can find.

CS Lewis - set out as an Atheist to disprove the Bible and at the end of his attempt he became a Christian.

There’s also a book written by Lee Stroble called Case For Christ. You might find a lot of information because Lee Stroble also set out to disprove the bible and who Jesus Christ claimed to be. He set out, like a lawyer to bring to the table as if Jesus was on trial in court so to speak. It’s a very good intellectual book yet written in an easy to read format.

In other words, if you were to put the bible in a court of law to prove the validation of Sacred Scripture the Bible would be proved to be all that Christians both Protestant and Catholic claims. The only thing is, this is research that you’re going to have to look into.

The Qu’ran would never stand up to such scrutiny.
Last, take a look at Mohammed, seen as the last of all Prophets. His character and the things he stood for were in opposition to both Judaism and Christianity. A good example of his character being that he forced a child into marriage with him.

This isn’t to say you can’t find Muslims who are good because just like there’s good and bad Christians there are good and bad Muslims.

Islam rejects who Jesus truly is. If you read Case For Christ by Lee Stroble you’ll see the inconsistency of the Qu’ran when speaking of Jesus. Islam teaches that Jesus didn’t even die on the cross let alone raise from the dead.

Yes dear friend, there are many historical truths in the OT as there are historical truths in the Quran. There are also some historical inaccuracies in both Books, probably more in the OT.

So would you therefore say that both Books are true?

.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Actually, I did: “Historically speaking,” it was “apparently dictated to scribes by Muhammad, and compiled by others.” That is the whole answer for which data are available.

So you think that Muhammad wrote the Quran and not God. Isn’t that the position of another poster which you claimed was insulting to Islam and Muhammad?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Yes dear friend, there are many historical truths in the OT as there are historical truths in the Quran. There are also some historical inaccuracies in both Books, probably more in the OT.

So would you therefore say that both Books are true?

.

Do the Jews and Church take the same literal “everything in here has to be true because it is straight from the mouth of God” approach that Muslims do regarding the Quran? If not, than historical inaccuracies in the OT aren’t really the same as historical inaccuracies in the Quran. The Quran has to be 100% accurate historically, scientifically, theologically and linguistically otherwise the claim that it’s authored by God is invalid.

 

[Mystophilus]

So you think that Muhammad wrote the Quran and not God. Isn’t that the position of another poster which you claimed was insulting to Islam and Muhammad?

You seem to be having a lot of trouble reading what I have actually written rather than reading things into what I have written. As stated three times now, it was “apparently dictated to scribes by Muhammad, and compiled by others.” That is, as stated twice now, the whole answer for which data are available.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

You seem to be having a lot of trouble reading what I have actually written rather than reading things into what I have written. As stated three times now, it was “apparently dictated to scribes by Muhammad, and compiled by others.” That is, as stated twice now, the whole answer for which data are available.

So Muhammad made up the Quran.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Yes dear friend, there are many historical truths in the OT as there are historical truths in the Quran. There are also some historical inaccuracies in both Books, probably more in the OT.

So would you therefore say that both Books are true?

.

Well, as far as historical accuracy goes, the Bible is not flawed. You can’t just simply say both are flawed to justify any perceived truth you may think there is in the Qu’ran.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

A better question to ask, is Muhammed REALLY a Prophet of God?

If Muhammed is NOT a Prophet then one cannot take the Qu’ran as being a Sacred word to live by and therefore anything in the Qu’ran that does not fit with the Gospel is not to be taken as God’s word.

As CS Lewis stated, “Jesus was either a liar, a lunitic, or He REALLY TRULY IS GOD” but one thing for certain Muslims can’t honor a lunitic or a liar right? And Muslims cannot honor a false Jesus and they don’t truly honor Jesus if Muslims don’t accept the true Jesus although I do believe they honor who they think Jesus is but Jesus is either a liar, a lunitic, or He is who He claimed to be.

 

[Mystophilus]

So Muhammad made up the Quran.

Only according to people who ignore historical methodology, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the duty of charity.

 

[Servant19]

Do the Jews and Church take the same literal “everything in here has to be true because it is straight from the mouth of God” approach that Muslims do regarding the Quran? If not, than historical inaccuracies in the OT aren’t really the same as historical inaccuracies in the Quran. The Quran has to be 100% accurate historically, scientifically, theologically and linguistically otherwise the claim that it’s authored by God is invalid.

I’m not sure I’m clear on what you are saying here dear friend.

Are you stating that the truth of a Book is determined by “how” the readers of that Book interpret it??

Secondly are you saying at the end of your post that there are historical inaccuracies in the Quran? If so could you refer me to it please?

Thankyou

.

 

[Servant19]

Well, as far as historical accuracy goes, the Bible is not flawed. You can’t just simply say both are flawed to justify any perceived truth you may think there is in the Qu’ran.

Yes of course, but what I am asserting here is that should the intention be to deny truth to either the Quran or OT, one could pick flaws. That’s in a subjective level.

If we are to be objective however, both books are equally truthful.

.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Only according to people who ignore historical methodology, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and the duty of charity.

I see, so he didn’t make up what he dictated to scribes. Well if he didn’t make it up, how exactly was he able to dictate it to the scribes? What he was dictating to the scribes had to come from someone. Any opinions on who this someone was since it apparently couldn’t have been Muhammad (after all your position is that he didn’t make it up himself)?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I’m not sure I’m clear on what you are saying here dear friend.

Are you stating that the truth of a Book is determined by “how” the readers of that Book interpret it??

Secondly are you saying at the end of your post that there are historical inaccuracies in the Quran? If so could you refer me to it please?

Thankyou

.

“There are also some historical inaccuracies in both Books, probably more in the OT.”

You apparently already know of historical inaccuracies in the Quran. Perhaps you can explain to me why you are asking for information (historical inaccuracies) that you apparently already have for a claim (the Quran has historical inaccuracies in it) that you apparently already agree with.