Must Catholics deny Transsexuals Human Rights?

[Zoe_Brain]

Silence breeds consent.

Not one has definitely said that the Church does not view the persecution of transsexuals as correct.

Is it the case that

a) Despite this evidence, of course the Catholic Church isn’t against human rights for gays and those born with anatomy neither wholly male nor wholly female. Just because the Thomas More Legal Centre, various prominent Catholic Activists, multitudes of priests and religious, the Vatican itself in letters to bishops, and Pope Benedict himself encourage such legal persecution, that’s all just matters of individual conscience. The Church itself would never condone denial of human rights, and it’s insulting to say they do. Only anti-Catholics would say so.

b) That the Church does this, but is perfectly justified in doing so, because the fight against homosexuality is so important. It is unfortunate that the Transsexual and Intersexed are collateral damage.

c) That the Church does this, but is perfectly justified in doing so, as the existence of Gay, Intersexed or Transsexual people contravenes Natural Law, and they endanger all Humanity. (This appears to be the view of His Holiness).

d) Something else.

There has been much argument - but no unequivocal, utterly unambiguous answer.

We have been told - and it’s a proposition I accept, on the evidence - that there is a broad spectrum of opinion by individual Catholic priests and churches on all but matters of official Church policy. Very well. In that case, there should be many examples of single Catholic churches or priests who have advocated for human rights for transsexuals. They should be as easy to find as “liberation theologists” and other ultra-Liberal or even Marxists within the Church.

Is there none? Not even one? It appears not.

 

[Dale_M]

Not one has definitely said that the Church does not view the persecution of transsexuals as correct.

There has been much argument - but no unequivocal, utterly unambiguous answer.

Zoe, the Catholic Church does not have any public documents regarding transsexuals. I think you know that. In the absence of such documents, it is hard to provide an utterly unambiguous answer. What you are asking is that we prove a negative.

I have mentioned before that the Church is opposed to the persecution of homosexuals. And by extension, I think we can assume that it is opposed to the persecution of transsexuals.
"US Catholic Bishops:

It is crucially important to understand that saying a person has a particular inclination that is disordered is not to say that the person as a whole is disordered. Nor does it mean that one has been rejected by God or the Church. Sometimes the Church is misinterpreted or misrepresented as teaching that persons with homosexual inclinations are objectively disordered, as if everything about them were disordered or rendered morally defective by this inclination. Rather, the disorder is in that particular inclination, which is not ordered toward the fulfillment of the natural ends of human sexuality. Because of this, acting in accord with such an inclination simply cannot contribute to the true good of the human person. Nevertheless, while the particular inclination to homosexual acts is disordered, the person retains his or her intrinsic human dignity and value.
…
In fact, the Church actively asserts and promotes the intrinsic dignity of every person. As human persons, persons with a homosexual inclination have the same basic rights as all people, including the right to be treated with dignity.

usccb.org/doctrine/Ministry.pdf

The Church is a strong believer in human dignity and the inherent value of a human life. It does not support persecution.

We have been told - and it’s a proposition I accept, on the evidence - that there is a broad spectrum of opinion by individual Catholic priests and churches on all but matters of official Church policy. Very well. In that case, there should be many examples of single Catholic churches or priests who have advocated for human rights for transsexuals. They should be as easy to find as “liberation theologists” and other ultra-Liberal or even Marxists within the Church.

Is there none? Not even one? It appears not.

I think you have made a valid point. It would be heartening if we were aware of priests who did defend transsexual rights. Certainly there are many examples of priests working against protecting those rights.

This is just a guess on my part, but I think two factors are working against such priests coming forward. The percentage of transsexuals is very low and aren’t on the radar of most Catholic priests. And because transsexual rights are often politically associated with gay rights, priests are leery of getting involved for fear of being discipline by the bishop or the Vatican. The Catholic Church may only be dimly aware of the existence of transsexuals, but they are keenly aware of homosexuals and are have in recent years become rather strict about not encouraging gay marriage or civil unions.

Those priests who are sympathetic to transsexual concerns stay low key, such as the priest who allowed a gender therapist to set up an office in a Catholic Student Center in Des Moines, Iowa.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Those priests who are sympathetic to transsexual concerns stay low key, such as the priest who allowed a gender therapist to set up an office in a Catholic Student Center in Des Moines, Iowa.

And was transferred out of that diocese immediately afterwards. As if he were a Child Molester.

I get the message. Plausible Deniability. That may not be the message that was intended, but I can see zero difference from a situation where the Church was anti-T, even if it isn’t officially - nudge nudge wink wink.

There’s no actual evidence I’m wrong here is there? I was so hoping there would be. SIGH

The Church is a strong believer in human dignity and the inherent value of a human life.

Agreed.

It does not support persecution.

Except of us. The Trans and the Intersexed. The threats to Humanity.

What does it say about an organisation that is “a strong believer in human dignity and the inherent value of a human life.” when it has a very different attitude to a group who claim to be human?

 

[Dale_M]

And was transferred out of that diocese immediately afterwards. As if he were a Child Molester.

Uh, no, that isn’t what happened.

It is very common for diocesan priests (those serving under a bishop) to rotate between parish assignments. The former priest did his time at the student center and then was reassigned. There was nothing unusual about that. Susan McIntyre’s counseling became a problem only after the replacement priest discovered one of her hormone recommendation letters in the center’s copier. The diocese was unaware of the nature of her counseling prior to that.

There’s no actual evidence I’m wrong here is there? I was so hoping there would be. SIGH

Yanno…perhaps its not a surprising situation. The Catholic Church is largely unaware of transsexuals and intersexed persons and flummoxed when it comes to policy. I think (and this is just an opinion based upon a general sense of what I have read over the years) the leadership is deeply uncomfortable about the questions posed by gender-variant persons, but at the same time they realize that this is a medical issue and they don’t want to act decisively until the science is better understood. The political affiliation of transgender rights with organizations advocating gay marriage adds to their caution.

Except of us. The Trans and the Intersexed. The threats to Humanity.

Ah, Zoe… :hug3:

I know you sincerely believe this, and I wish I could have convinced you otherwise. I sincerely think you have misinterpreted some vague words in a couple speeches and overgeneralized about the political stances of some Catholics. If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t be here in this forum. I have no current affiliation with the Catholic Church, and care very much about the rights of gender variant persons.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Ah, Zoe… :hug3:

I know you sincerely believe this, and I wish I could have convinced you otherwise.

All it would take is some evidence. One Catholic entity somewhere in the world specifically an unequivocally calling for equal legal rights for us, to counterbalance the many catholic clergy and organisations that are calling for the repeal of existing rights, and denial of attempts to gain legal equality.

Darren Neal Green, Jr. 25, also known as “Dee” was stabbed to death
October 26, 2009 on Montpelier Street near Adams Park in the
Coldstream-Homestead-Montebello neighborhood. Police have charged
20-year-old Larry Douglas in her death and he is to stand trial at the
end of April on a charge of first-degree murder. Green, a transgender
male, was starting the name change process and was trying to get her
high school equivalency diploma. (Baltimore Sun / April 22, 2010) ]
…
In October, she was found dead, stabbed in the heart and left on
Montpelier Street near Adams Park in the
Coldstream-Homestead-Montebello neighborhood, her underwear pulled
down below her knees, with defensive wounds on her hands and a bruise
on her left arm that police said came from a human bite.

LONG BEACH, Calif.—Police are looking for a suspect they say slashed a
transgendered student in a bathroom at California State University,
Long Beach on April 15.

University Spokesman Rick Gloady says the 27-year-old victim was
treated and released at a local hospital.

Investigators say after asking the victim to identify himself, the
suspect pulled the student’s t-shirt up and pushed him into a bathroom
stall. The man used a sharp object to slash the student’s chest and
then fled.

Gloady says police believe it was an isolated incident and there’s no
ongoing threat to the campus.

The victim had the word “IT” carved into his chest.

SIGH

The APA’s official figures say that 1 in 30,000 women are trans, as are 1 in 100,000 men.
Catholics are what, 1 in 10 of the US population?

Imagine if 3,000 catholics were slain for being catholic every two weeks in the USA. Not just slain, but often butchered, flayed, eviscerated, tortured. We lit 138 candles at this years Transgendered Day of Remembrance, where we privately and quietly remember the names of our dead. Away from publicity, so we don’t join the ranks of the slain ourselves.

I just went through the list of people I know personally, usually through e-mail contacts, sometimes having physically met them.

3 are dead. One in the UK strangled and set on fire in her house (she was a PhD student like me, we commiserated with each other).

I’m sorry, I was tasked with reading the names this year, and I broke down when I came to her name. Someone else had to take over.

One in Canada suicided when the essential medication she needed, medication she’d already paid for by emptying her meagre savings, was withheld because the sender suddenly had “moral qualms”. I’d helped her financially a bit, before, just to keep her alive. One in Texas froze to death on the steps of a church, after having been turned away from a homeless shelter (and I will NEVER do work for the Salvation Army again after that).

One is still recovering from the brain injuries she received in a multi-hour torture/rape/attempted murder in Colorado. She appeared to make a good recovery, but has had a setback, and may die in the next few hours.

And the Catholic Church remains silent, other than the Pope saying that to give us legal rights would be dangerous.

Please forgive me if I have less patience than I should have, if I’m less willing to give the 1% benefit of the doubt in a situation not 100% certain, only 99%.

People don’t know. They don’t realise. People here are generally good, kind, honest and decent, even when they disagree with me.

But imagine if there were few on this board who didn’t know personally people who had been slain for being catholic - or who had died because there was no law protecting them from persecution, and existing laws were being repealed. I think if the shoe was on the other foot, their attitude would be different.

Ah well: no use moaning. I’ve made my point. On to the next battle. I think I’ve reached - or at least given food for thought - all those who are reachable. Excelsior.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Not to blow my own horn here, just an example from my personal life for food for thought. After my dear friend in the middle of transition, Barbara Ann passed away at her own hand, from a downword spirial of guilt and depression. I took a tradition my parish has had since the 1970’s and added to it. At St James In Grand Rapids everyone after the last hymn prays a Hail Mary for the next parishner who will passway. I added another Hail Mary to that for the next transgender community memeber who will meet an untimely death. It’s still hard on me. Barbara Ann took her life just a mere hour or two after I talked to her. Many just don’t understand we transseuals are not by choice.

 

[royal_archer]

In October, she was found dead, stabbed in the heart and left on
Montpelier Street near Adams Park in the Coldstream-Homestead-Montebello neighborhood, her underwear pulled down below her knees, with defensive wounds on her hands and a bruise
on her left arm that police said came from a human bite.

…One is still recovering from the brain injuries she received in a multi-hour torture/rape/attempted murder in Colorado. She appeared to make a good recovery, but has had a setback, and may die in the next few hours.
…

What you are describing here is conduct of a perverted nature. If I find someone offensive or immoral I would not be inclined to have intercourse with them or put my mouth on them. There are many lifestyles that the church condemns as immoral but you do not see this type of sexually oriented assault on those other groups. Therefore it is a misdirection of blame to blame the church for these incidents.

 

[aspawloski4th]

What you are describing here is conduct of a perverted nature. If I find someone offensive or immoral I would not be inclined to have intercourse with them or put my mouth on them. There are many lifestyles that the church condemns as immoral but you do not see this type of sexually oriented assault on those other groups. Therefore it is a misdirection of blame to blame the church for these incidents.

It’s an indirect blame. Keep in mind the church in the pre VaticanII days preached that indirect responsibility for sin was practically almost as bad as direct responsiblity. I know priests who preach that way now. When I was a child I got spanked for things I was indirectly responsilble for as well as directly. Is the church directly to blame? …No, but they don’t get a free pass either.

 

[royal_archer]

It’s an indirect blame. Keep in mind the church in the pre VaticanII days preached that indirect responsibility for sin was practically almost as bad as direct responsiblity. I know priests who preach that way now. When I was a child I got spanked for things I was indirectly responsilble for as well as directly. Is the church directly to blame? …No, but they don’t get a free pass either.

There is such a thing as proximity. Did the action have a reasonable influence on the final activity and would the activity have happened with out the act in question. The crimes mentioned were the work of violent perverts, not the type of people who listen to the church.

If we use the indirect logic the way you are attempting to, you would have to blame Obama for every theft because he preaches class envy.

 

[aspawloski4th]

There is such a thing as proximity. Did the action have a reasonable influence on the final activity and would the activity have happened with out the act in question. The crimes mentioned were the work of violent perverts, not the type of people who listen to the church.

If we use the indirect logic the way you are attempting to, you would have to blame Obama for every theft because he preaches class envy.

Obama isn’t to blame for theft, because it is legal and his hand isn’t going in your wallet or piggy bank. By that standard you would have to blame every president back to Wilson because they all had the personal income tax, since him. Those are people who hate transeegendered so much they do perverted things, and the lack of out cry against it catagorically from those outside the gender community constitutes condoning it.

 

[royal_archer]

Obama isn’t to blame for theft, because it is legal and his hand isn’t going in your wallet or piggy bank. By that standard you would have to blame every president back to Wilson because they all had the personal income tax, since him. Those are people who hate transeegendered so much they do perverted things, and the lack of out cry against it catagorically from those outside the gender community constitutes condoning it.

Please re read the post and respond to what I wrote.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Please re read the post and respond to what I wrote.

I did respond to what you wrote! I’m not changing my response either.

 

[Holly3278]

Transsexuals and intersexed people deserve the same rights as everyone else. However, they do not deserve special rights. Such rights would include things such as the “right” to:

• Cross-dress
• The “right” to use restrooms for the opposite sex than what their biological sex is
• And the “right” to a sex-change surgery

Also, if medicaid, medicare, or any other form of government funded health insurance were to ever propose covering sex-change surgeries or medications, we should fight against such a thing. The reason is because if you are born a certain sex then you should not be trying to change your sex. God created us as a certain sex for a reason. We shouldn’t try to play God and change our sex.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

We shouldn’t try to play God and change our sex.

Holly… I changed sex without trying. That happens to some people. Usually from Female to Male, but not always.

Please look at usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

Here’s a quote, as I’ve found many people don’t bother following URLs in areas where their preconceived notions may be challenged:

During the early 1970s, Dr. Julianne Imperato, a Cornell endocrinologist, conducted an expedition to the Dominican Republic to investigate reports of an isolated village where children appearing to be girls turned into men at puberty. In the village, these children were known as ‘guevedoces’ (literally, penis at 12 years). Also known locally as machihembras (‘first women, then man’), these pseudohermaphrodites were documented serially in the following photographs published originally in the American Journal of Medicne (Am. J. Med. 62: 170-191, 1977):

In an isolated village of the southwestern Dominican Republic, 2% of the live births were in the 1970’s, guevedoces (actually male pseudohermaphrodites). These children appeared to be girls at birth, but at puberty these ‘girls’ sprout muscles, testes, and a penis. For the rest of their lives they are men in nearly all respects (see photograph 6 below). Their underlying pathology was found to be a deficiency of the enzyme, 5-alpha Reductase.

Maybe, just maybe… the Almighty might be TRYING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING???

Does he have to shout? That perhaps the shape of our bodies at birth isn’t a completely reliable indicator of our sex?

Holly, I’m one of the few female pseudohermaphrodites on the planet. Born looking male (mostly), changing to look female (mostly).

I’ll try once more, by quoting the abstract of one of the hundreds of papers on the subject:
Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35

The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

The sound byte? Transsexuals have mixed anatomy, some parts male, others female. Trans women have feminised brains. Anatomically, not spiritually or psychologically, but physically feminised. And you would deny them the opportunity to have a body that was as consistent, whole and healthy as we could make it because… why exactly? Because the concept makes you feel uncomfortable? Because you feel - without any scriptural basis - that it must be wrong somehow, since it’s so embarrassing?

One final quote, from Prof Sid Ecker, a Urologist:

We showed how Transgender Brains think, smell, and hear like the opposite sex.

You do know that having a masculinised body and a feminised brain causes immense psychic anguish, don’t you? Utter and complete misery? So much so that about half suicide without treatment, and the rest tend to die premature deaths, which is a blessed relief for them.

And you’d oppose them getting treatment for this, the only treatment that has ever been found to work? (98% success rate - 2% die anyway).

Because why exactly? You must have a very, very good reason for saying this. You must have researched the matter extensively, and come to such a conclusion only after a lot of soul-searching. Please could you elucidate?

 

[aspawloski4th]

Transsexuals and intersexed people deserve the same rights as everyone else. However, they do not deserve special rights. Such rights would include things such as the “right” to:

• Cross-dress
• The “right” to use restrooms for the opposite sex than what their biological sex is
• And the “right” to a sex-change surgery

Also, if medicaid, medicare, or any other form of government funded health insurance were to ever propose covering sex-change surgeries or medications, we should fight against such a thing. The reason is because if you are born a certain sex then you should not be trying to change your sex. God created us as a certain sex for a reason. We shouldn’t try to play God and change our sex.

Cross dress. Are you saying ( other than obvious indecent exposure) we should have a public dress code? I should be able to wear What I want. As I proposed in an earlier post I have a friend who is a female to male transsexual and looks very naturally male. If you were to force him to use the woman’s room you’d scare the women out, because he doesn’t look or sound even remotely female. What gives your the right to determine sexchange surgery is a right or needed or not? Some of us believe NATURE makes mistakes from time to time. With your line of thinking if someone is born with a heart defect that would have to be left alone, because after all God made them that way. American Medical Society happens to consider sexual reassignment surgery a need. You shouldn’t play excutive doctor.

 

[royal_archer]

Holly… I changed sex without trying. That happens to some people. Usually from Female to Male, but not always.

Please look at usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

Here’s a quote, as I’ve found many people don’t bother following URLs in areas where their preconceived notions may be challenged:
And you’d oppose them getting treatment for this, the only treatment that has ever been found to work? (98% success rate - 2% die anyway)…

Because why exactly? You must have a very, very good reason for saying this. You must have researched the matter extensively, and come to such a conclusion only after a lot of soul-searching. Please could you elucidate?

If you want to engage in body modification surgery, that is your choice. Not a moral choice but your choice none the less. Just don’t steal from others to pay for it and do not use it to mislead others. (For instance, perverted men who try to look like women so they can get access to women’s locker rooms)

 

[royal_archer]

Cross dress. Are you saying ( other than obvious indecent exposure) we should have a public dress code? I should be able to wear What I want. As I proposed in an earlier post I have a friend who is a female to male transsexual and looks very naturally male. If you were to force him to use the woman’s room you’d scare the women out, because he doesn’t look or sound even remotely female. What gives your the right to determine sexchange surgery is a right or needed or not? Some of us believe NATURE makes mistakes from time to time. With your line of thinking if someone is born with a heart defect that would have to be left alone, because after all God made them that way. American Medical Society happens to consider sexual reassignment surgery a need. You shouldn’t play excutive doctor.

If you think you need it pay for it.

 

[aspawloski4th]

If (For instance, perverted men who try to look like women so they can get access to women’s locker rooms)

No one has ever aquired breasts or gotten other surgery to do that. Thats is a common myth prepetuated by the American Family Association and those who think like James Dobson.

 

[aspawloski4th]

If you think you need it pay for it.

I’m just wondering something. Do you ever think about anything without an economic iplecation? You are the most onetracked mind I have ever come across in my whole life! Everything is economics to you. Stregnthens the meaning of broken record.

 

[royal_archer]

I’m just wondering something. Do you ever think about anything without an economic iplecation? You are the most onetracked mind I have ever come across in my whole life! Everything is economics to you. Stregnthens the meaning of broken record.

I am not the one who is trying to take other people’s earnings.