Must we forgive the unrepentant?

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I’m at a loss as to why you are having so much difficulty with this. Forgiveness is not the same thing as giving someone a free pass. What I believe is hanging you up is the idea that a victim of sexual abuse can or should forgive the person who abused them and that somehow the victim bears responsibility of the abuse. That is in no way what is being said.

Let’s take a 10 year girl who is molested by Uncle Creepy for two years. She is finally able to disclose this to her parents and they take appropriate action. Parents and child are Catholic and after sometime spent in prayer/counseling/spiritual direction…they are able to forgive Uncle Creepy.

Parents and little girl in no way excuse what Uncle Creepy did. They in no way allow him access to this little girl or any other child within their power to do so. They don’t keep his behavior to be a secret from others who need protection from him. They allow the law to take it’s course for Uncle Creepy. Parents & little girl do not take on blame for what Uncle Creepy did. They do not feel the need to tell Uncle Creepy they forgive him. They cut all ties with Uncle Creepy and have zero plans to being in the same space as him. They leave the judgement of Uncle Creepy to God.

God will judge parents and little girl according to their lives and He will judge Uncle Creepy according to his. Parents and little girl’s judgement is not dependent on Uncle Creepy’s repentance or lack thereof.

I agree with most of it. But I have two issues.
CAN one forgive an unrepentant? Sure I guess but I don’t really know what that looks like. Forgiveness makes whole and restores relationship. It makes all things new as Jesus showed. I think there is a theological and secular gap here with the word forgiveness. But let’s move on from that and say that yes a person CAN forgive an unrepentant. But the concept I struggle with is the word MUST. That puts an undo moral obligation on someone who did not sin. I also think there is confusion with the reason why someone would be unrepentant. If I’m an ignorant Catholic who has been told by a priest that birth control is ok. There is no way for me to repent of that sin. Forgiveness may not require repentance but if I know it is wrong and choose it anyway I must repent.

I have no problem if the question says Must an innocent forgive a repentant abuser? The answer is clear and everything you and the deacon wrote apply. That is crystal clear in our faith.
I will reword it this way. Forgiveness without repentance does not exist at all ever if forgiveness is defined in a theological way of relationship.

 

[Ender]

CCC #2862 The fifth petition begs God’s mercy for our offences, mercy which can penetrate our hearts only if we have learned to forgive our enemies, with the example and help of Christ.

But mercy cannot aid the unrepentant.On the part of man only a lack of good will can limit {mercy}, a lack of readiness to be converted and to repent…(JPII, Dives et Misericordia)

Which act of forgiveness requires the greater charity: to forgive the unrepentant or to forgive the repentant?

The church does not offer forgiveness to the unrepentant, nor does God himself. It’s not immediately clear why we should.

Sacramental forgiveness (Reconciliation with God and Church) has special requirements only for the transgressor who desires to be forgiven and regain friendship with God and community.

"God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us. **To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults***. (CCC 1847)
*Ender
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[Hoosier_Daddy]

This is not Catholic theology at all. Restoration of a relationship with fellow man is not a requirement for forgiveness.

Agreed the word relationship is unfortunate. It does not imply what I am saying. But if you dissect the word it is the only one that I can think of. Sin destroys a reciprocal relationship. Forgiveness restores that relationship. In no way does that mean a physical relationship at all.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Can someone please provide a Catholic definition of forgiveness?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But mercy cannot aid the unrepentant.On the part of man only a lack of good will can limit {mercy}, a lack of readiness to be converted and to repent…(JPII, Dives et Misericordia)
The church does not offer forgiveness to the unrepentant, nor does God himself. It’s not immediately clear why we should.
"God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us. To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults***. (CCC 1847)
*Ender
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This.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

as frustrating as this can get, this is an extremely good discussion and thread. There is much to think about for all involved. Threads like this are why CAFs is a valuable too for he faith. I thank all who are participating!

 

[Ender]

This is not, however, how JPII explained this passage (Reconciliatio et Paenitentia):*The two meanings of metanoia appear in the significant instruction given by Jesus: “If your brother repents (returns to you), forgive him; and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
And this is from Dives in Misericordia: In no passage of the Gospel message does forgiveness, or mercy as its source, mean indulgence towards evil, towards scandals, towards injury or insult. In any case, reparation for evil and scandal, compensation for injury, and satisfaction for insult are conditions for forgiveness.
*Ender

 

[Horton]

I agree with most of it. But I have two issues.
CAN one forgive an unrepentant? Sure I guess but I don’t really know what that looks like. Forgiveness makes whole and restores relationship. It makes all things new as Jesus showed. I think there is a theological and secular gap here with the word forgiveness. But let’s move on from that and say that yes a person CAN forgive an unrepentant. But the concept I struggle with is the word MUST. That puts an undo moral obligation on someone who did not sin. I also think there is confusion with the reason why someone would be unrepentant. If I’m an ignorant Catholic who has been told by a priest that birth control is ok. There is no way for me to repent of that sin. Forgiveness may not require repentance but if I know it is wrong and choose it anyway I must repent.

I have no problem if the question says Must an innocent forgive a repentant abuser? The answer is clear and everything you and the deacon wrote apply. That is crystal clear in our faith.
I will reword it this way. Forgiveness without repentance does not exist at all ever if forgiveness is defined in a theological way of relationship.

Ok I’m getting it now. This is one of those teachings that superficially looks easy and rose colored. It’s easy to follow the two commandments, Love God and love your neighbor. Scratch the surface a bit and Oh…yeah I gotta love the neighbor who lets his tree drop all the leaves in my yard, go a little deeper and boy…I have to love that poor excuse of a boss who fired me from my first job. When we break it completely open…I even have to love Uncle Creepy.

In order to love we must not have ill will toward another. Those are incongruent emotions. To not have ill will toward someone is to forgive them. We must forgive to love as God commands us.

Is it hard? Absolutely. I would bet every Christian in the world has struggled with the application of this commandment at some point or another. I have many times. There are still some people I have to make a conscience decision every day to forgive.

 

[clem456]

Can someone please provide a Catholic definition of forgiveness?

That’s the problem.
Forgiveness is confused with other things, especially absolution.

We as individuals can not do absolution, so the context of forgiveness is entirely different for us than the object state of a person’s soul in the eyes of the Church or in God’s eyes.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

The sermon that stuck in my mind was, what happens when you get to 491, with all the stored up vengeance. The point of the Gospel is, we should not even be counting, and making a pay back list.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Ok I’m getting it now. This is one of those teachings that superficially looks easy and rose colored. It’s easy to follow the two commandments, Love God and love your neighbor. Scratch the surface a bit and Oh…yeah I gotta love the neighbor who lets his tree drop all the leaves in my yard, go a little deeper and boy…I have to love that poor excuse of a boss who fired me from my first job.

I worked as a support worker for a company looking after people with learning disabilities. I did lots of voluntary work for them, never had a day off sick in nine and a half years. I have been punched kicked, had loads of things thrown at me. Because I lived nearby, I often had phone calls in the middle of the night for some emergency, and I would come in, but never claim my time for doing so. But I was sacked, I believe the reason was totally unjust and wrong.

So being sacked at the tender age of 62, might not have been good, but I searched in my heart for ways to forgive the people who were the cause of my problems. Since being sacked, I have done well over a thousand hours of voluntary work for the company that gave me the sack. I shall be going back again tomorrow, I guess I have saved them at least ten thousand pounds in wages.

I find the voluntary work very therapeutic, and I could not do this if I felt any anger towards them. I guess it was because of the voluntary work that I did, that I was offered a job the day after being sacked, more money and less hours too. These last few years have been a time of adjustment for me, I have felt a stronger faith, and the need to thank God more often for all that he does.

 

[o_mlly]

But mercy cannot aid the unrepentant.On the part of man only a lack of good will can limit {mercy}, a lack of readiness to be converted and to repent…(JPII, Dives et Misericordia)
The church does not offer forgiveness to the unrepentant, nor does God himself. It’s not immediately clear why we should.
"God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us. To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults***. (CCC 1847)
*Ender
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*

If one sins against his neighbor, there are two souls in need of healing. The healing processes are independent.

The transgressor can regain God’s friendship and his relationship to the community independent of the attitude of the one transgressed. Restoration of charity in the transgressor’s soul is not impeded by an absence of charity in the one transgressed.

The transgressed are obligated to forgive their transgressors in order that they themselves be forgiven. Therefore, only non-sinners need not forgive their transgressors. All others must forgive.

 

[Ender]

If one sins against his neighbor, there are two souls in need of healing. The healing processes are independent.

The transgressor can regain God’s friendship and his relationship to the community independent of the attitude of the one transgressed. Restoration of charity in the transgressor’s soul is not impeded by an absence of charity in the one transgressed.

Yes, I understand this, but it does not address the question. In Matthew (18:21-22) Christ tells Peter he must forgive “Not seven times, but, I tell you, seventy-seven times.” In Luke (17:4), however, we are told Christ makes forgiveness conditional: *"And if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive.”

*As I pointed out earlier, in Reconciliatio et Paenitentia JPII used the passage from Luke to address the question. Why, then, when both Christ and JPII say forgiveness is conditional, should we believe otherwise?

The transgressed are obligated to forgive their transgressors in order that they themselves be forgiven.

You make a useful distinction between the transgressor and the transgressed, and the needs of each. I’m just not sure how you resolve the (mutually exclusive) conditions that the victim must forgive the perpetrator, but the perpetrator is not to be forgiven until he repents. The church will not forgive the sins of the unrepentant.
Again, JPII citing John:* “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”(162)

**162. Jn 20:22; Mt 18:18; cf also, as regards Peter, Mt 16:19. Blessed Isaac of Stella in one of his talks emphasizes the full communion of Christ with the church in the forgiveness of sins: “The church can forgive nothing without Christ and Christ does not wish to forgive anything without the church. The church can forgive nothing except to a penitent, that is to say, to a person whom Christ has touched with his grace: Christ does not wish to consider anything forgiven in a person who despises the church”: Sermo 11 (In Dominica II Post Epiphaniam, 1): PL 194, 1729.
*On the other hand, JPII includes this as well:
*Jesus strongly insists on this theme of fraternal reconciliation: for example, when he invites us to turn the other cheek to the one who strikes us, and to give our cloak too to the one who has taken our coat, or when he instills the law of forgiveness: forgiveness which each one receives in the measure that he or she foresee forgiveness to be offered even to enemies,
*While not saying so explicitly, this supports your assertion that the offended is to forgive the offender unconditionally since no conditions are mentioned. I can’t answer this. I can only point out that (a) the church does not forgive sins unless the sinner first repents, and (b) in another passage we are told we are to forgive if the person repents. The obligation to forgive absent repentance is inferred, not spoken.

Ender

 

[clem456]

But mercy cannot aid the unrepentant.On the part of man only a lack of good will can limit {mercy}, a lack of readiness to be converted and to repent…(JPII, Dives et Misericordia)
The church does not offer forgiveness to the unrepentant, nor does God himself. It’s not immediately clear why we should.
"God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us. To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults***. (CCC 1847)
*Ender
*
*

Mercy most certainly *does *aid the unrepentant.
I’m not sure how this cannot be understood in the Christian context.

The Church does offer forgiveness to the unrepentant, and so does God. Constantly without ceasing, until the unrepentant has left this life without saying yes.

The Church does not give absolution to the unrepentant, and neither does God give the unrepentant salvation.

IF you want to define forgiveness as the washing away of sins, they yes, what you are saying is true. Who among us can do that??? So in the context of the OP’s question, absolution is a non-starter.

70x7

 

[clem456]

It’s important to take the teaching of the Church in context. Here is context for the quote from Dives in Misericordia:

It is precisely because sin exists in the world, which "God so loved…that he gave his only Son,"115 that **God, who "is love,"116 cannot reveal Himself otherwise than as mercy. **This corresponds not only to the most profound truth of that love which God is, but also to the whole interior truth of man and of the world which is man’s temporary homeland.

Mercy in itself, as a perfection of the infinite God, is also infinite. Also infinite therefore and inexhaustible is the Father’s readiness to receive the prodigal children who return to His home. Infinite are the readiness and power of forgiveness which flow continually from the marvelous value of the sacrifice of the Son. No human sin can prevail over this power or even limit it. On the part of man only a lack of good will can limit it, a lack of readiness to be converted and to repent, in other words persistence in obstinacy, opposing grace and truth, especially in the face of the witness of the cross and resurrection of Christ.

Therefore, the Church professes and proclaims conversion. Conversion to God always consists in discovering His mercy (this is hugely important in discussing whether or not the extension of forgiveness to the unrepentant aids them), that is, in discovering that love which is patient and kind117 as only the Creator and Father can be; the love to which the "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"118 is faithful to the uttermost consequences in the history of His covenant with man; even to the cross and to the death and resurrection of the Son. Conversion to God is always the fruit of the"rediscovery of this Father, who is rich in mercy.

Authentic knowledge of the God of mercy, the God of tender love, is a constant and inexhaustible source of conversion, not only as a momentary interior act but also as a permanent attitude, as a state of mind. Those who come to know God in this way, who “see” Him in this way, can live only in a state of being continually converted to Him. They live, therefore, in statu conversionis; and it is this state of conversion which marks out the most profound element of the pilgrimage of every man and woman on earth in statu viatoris. It is obvious that the Church professes the mercy of God, revealed in the crucified and risen Christ, not only by the word of her teaching but above all through the deepest pulsation of the life of the whole People of God. By means of this testimony of life, the Church fulfills the mission proper to the People of God, the mission which is a sharing in and, in a sense, a continuation of the messianic mission of Christ Himself.

It is the core message that God is always offering mercy and forgiveness, and that we who are made in his image do the same in his name. This can be the start of repentance for the unrepentant, not just the result of it. Although clearly the experience of it opens up as one lives in “statu conversionis”.

 

[o_mlly]

…

*Jesus strongly insists on this theme of fraternal reconciliation: for example, when he invites us to turn the other cheek to the one who strikes us, and to give our cloak too to the one who has taken our coat, or when he instills the law of forgiveness: forgiveness which each one receives in the measure that he or she foresee forgiveness to be offered even to enemies,
*While not saying so explicitly, this supports your assertion that the offended is to forgive the offender unconditionally since no conditions are mentioned. I can’t answer this. I can only point out that (a) the church does not forgive sins unless the sinner first repents, and (b) in another passage we are told we are to forgive if the person repents. The obligation to forgive absent repentance is inferred, not spoken.

Ender

Reconciliation has “vertical” and “horizontal” dimensions. The transgressed who always seeks to sustain and improve his own “vertical” reconciliation recognizing its primacy, immediately forgives his brother not for his brother’s sake but his own.

 

[DonCampbell]

Mercy most certainly *does *aid the unrepentant.
I’m not sure how this cannot be understood in the Christian context.

The Church does offer forgiveness to the unrepentant, and so does God. Constantly without ceasing, until the unrepentant has left this life without saying yes.

The Church does not give absolution to the unrepentant, and neither does God give the unrepentant salvation.

IF you want to define forgiveness as the washing away of sins, they yes, what you are saying is true. Who among us can do that??? So in the context of the OP’s question, absolution is a non-starter.

70x7

The key point here is that, as you say (perhaps inadvertantly) the Church “offers” forgiveness to the unrepentant. But there is no forgiveness without repentance (i.e., the person’s soul is not redeemed). Yes, the offer is meaningful in the sense that it provides an opportunity that the sinner did not previously have. But he must AVAIL himself of that opportunity to actually be forgiven.

Likewise, seems there would be no point to the Christs statement “whose sins you retain are retained” if all sins are forgiven by God ab initio.

 

[Mintaka]

The problem here is that English has one word for several concepts (“forgive”), but Latin and Greek have several words that each cover one concept.

For example, if you read the Our Father in Latin, the prayer says “dimitte” (dismiss, send away, let go). “Let go of our debts/trespasses, as we let go of our debtors/those who trespass against us.” It basically means “settle a debt” or “write off a debt” in the context of Matthew 6:12.

The Greek word, “aphes,” also means something like “let it go” or “permit it,” with the same particular meaning of “settle a debt” or “write off a debt.”

This directly ties into Jesus’ parable about the wicked steward, who started writing off debts left and right when he realized he was going to need friends as soon as he lost his steward job.

The reason that we can forgive sins against us is that we can write off stuff that only we lose from. All sins are sins against God, so He can write all of them off.

Also, the part in the Bible where it says only God can forgive sins - it says “hamartias,” which is “sins.” Matthew 6:12 says “opheilēmata,” which is “debts,” and “as we forgive our debtors.” Luke 11:4 is interesting, because it’s “forgive us our sins (hamartias) as we forgive our debtors.”

So that limitation in Luke 11:4 might explain it to you. It’s a pretty narrow distinction.

And no, people don’t have to be repentant for us to forgive them, any more than the wicked steward had his master fully paid off before he wrote off or lessened the debtors’ debts.

And yes, of course God can demand that we have mercy and forgiveness toward our personal enemies who are unrepentant, and that we not demand perfect repentance and contriteness of heart the way He can urge us to have. He doesn’t owe us a thing, because He’s God. He could demand whatever He felt like

But we owe Him, and we also owe everybody else we’ve sinned against. Compared to the sinless perfection and goodness of God, we are all shady, corrupt people who need to understand our lousy position. Like the wicked steward, we sinners need to start sucking up to everybody, before it’s too late. It’s going to look really bad at the Last Judgment if we are begging for mercy for our own sins and debts, but we haven’t given any to our debtors.

 

[DonCampbell]

It’s important to take the teaching of the Church in context. Here is context for the quote from Dives in Misericordia:

It is the core message that God is always offering mercy and forgiveness, and that we who are made in his image do the same in his name. This can be the start of repentance for the unrepentant, not just the result of it. Although clearly the experience of it opens up as one lives in “statu conversionis”.

Reference the lengthy quote from Dives in Misericordia:

“Also infinite therefore and inexhaustible is the Father’s readiness to receive the prodigal children who return to His home.”

This strongly indicates that God only remains ready to forgive, but does not in fact forgive, until the prodigal has returned (i.e., repented).

 

[clem456]

Forgiveness is not a transaction. I do this and I get that in return. Like going to court, or to the market, or performing a job for pay.

Forgiveness is an integral part of a relationship.

We have a covenant relationship with God. God has a nature. His way of acting is always within his nature.
In offering forgiveness God offers an initiative to restore our relationship, not a commodity which satisfies a transaction. He doesn’t give it up because we earned it. Look at the cross.

The fact that it takes two parties to have a relationship does not mean the party who makes an initiative did not make it.

Society can become “ever more human” only when we introduce into all the mutual relationships which form its moral aspect the moment of forgiveness, which is so much of the essence of the Gospel. Forgiveness demonstrates the presence in the world of the love which is more powerful than sin. Forgiveness is also the fundamental condition for reconciliation, not only in the relationship of God with man, but also in relationships between people. A world from which forgiveness was eliminated would be nothing but a world of cold and unfeeling justice, in the name of which each person would claim his or her own rights vis-a- vis others
…
For this reason, the Church must consider it one of her principal duties-at every stage of history and especially in our modern age-to proclaim and to introduce into life the mystery of mercy, supremely revealed in Jesus Christ. Not only for the Church herself as the community of believers but also in a certain sense for all humanity, this mystery is the source of a life different from the life which can be built by man, who is exposed to the oppressive forces of the threefold concupiscence active within him.128 It is precisely in the name of this mystery that Christ teaches us to forgive always.