Must we forgive the unrepentant?

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Who has proposed mercy without justice here? Do you understand the relationship between mercy and justice?
Yes, quite well actually. Though we live in a time where justice and legalism and law are considered the opposite of mercy. I thiink more people should look into the relationship of justice and mercy. being symbiotic.

Have no idea what you are talking about. Who has blamed victims of crimes here?
Putting the requirement of MUST on the innocent in effect casuees them to be accountable to God for something that was done TO them not something they did. This is abused by some in the evangelical world.

Evidently it is not obvious, as you call forgiveness an “achievement”. Nowhere, anywhere, anyplace, …does the Church ever refer to forgiveness as an “achievement”. Can you point us to where the Church refers to forgiveness as an achievement?
(I am not badgering you, but since you point to semantics and rewording above, it seems it’s important to speak with the Church.)
You are completely right here. I cringed when I wrote that. Achievement was the wrong word.
Really? Small offenses.

What is your disposition before the Lord, and how do you want him to treat you?I stand in humble repentance in all things. That is why I am in a state of Grace many days… I ask the Lord to judge me by his mercy and law, which I believe is how I should be judged And if I have witheld forgiveness to a repentant I should be held accountable to that. however, judge not lest ye be judged? Applies to me as well. I will not be judged well if I am unrepentant, and I am ok with that being the standard
What do you mean be requiring forgiveness? Are you fearful the Church is forcing you to do something you don’t want to do? No, because the Church obviously does no such thing. the Church’s answer is not affirmative in the title question. It is cautiously permissive. You CAN forgive the unrepentant, but it will not be required of you. Also forgiving the unrepentant does not entitle you to be forgive of the sins you do not repent of. Judge not… applies does not work that way.
**Forgiveness is the action of a free person, who is secure in the abundance of God’s love in his own life. A forgiving person knows his need for God’s mercy in his own life, has experienced it, and so he can pass it along without demanding the satisfaction of things he cannot demand. **This is true
You cannot determine a person’s worthiness of forgiveness You do not know a person’s heart. Well, I cannot forgive their soul true. that is God and the Church’s realm. But what God told us to do in the Church models how we live our lives as well. Repentance cannot be separated for forgiveness. For me to forgive my brother, I have to have some “asking” of it…
You are not a priest, you cannot give absolution.right
You are not a judge,Not true. We all can judge things. "Judging is not only God’s realm. God shows us that we are to be prudent in our judgement I cannot judge, or forgive someones soul. Period. So then, what am I judging and forgiving when I am dealing with my brother?. you cannot satisfy justice before God. That belongs to God. You can work towards a just society etc…but it is not within your ability to satisfy justice as a condition of forgiving another. Please correct me if I am wrong.I don’t think you are wong here. Except that we can judge others, just not their soul.

Forgiveness is not the obligation of a slave. This is the essence of the New Covenant. We are no longer slaves to injustice. We can forgive others because we are free to do it.
I hope it is a blessed time. Well I dont know about blessed… That is nto the word I would use, but I think it will be interesting and educational. I find it odd that you would use that word…
This was posted a while back. I will post it again and I hope you find it edifying and peaceful. I found it interesting, not really edifying or peaceful:shrug: Nor do I think emotion should be the deciding factor when discussing theology. It is not for me.
hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/8/0/9/809432f76e244a9d/Alpha_201S2-Forgiveness.m4a?c_id=8577090&expiration=1453908467&hwt=e37c8222ca3a12e44d035e53bec205bf

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

And so in the face of your own doubt, what do you do? Opt for the minimalist position of least risk?

Before you forgive, you choose to demand the certitude of justice, which you do not have sir. And you will never have it. It does not belong to you. But you can choose to wait for it. It is your choice. Forgiveness is a free act of love, not a mandate given to a slave.
One thing is sure, if you wait for the certitude of justice before you forgive, you will never be taken advantage of. But I’m not sure that’s the heart of the Christian call, to avoid being taken advantage of.

Since we are counting the cost/benefit and risk/reward…
how does it hurt you to have a complete and total commitment to forgive? I’m trying to figure that out with a couple of posters here,
Even from a purely selfish point of view, what does it cost you to forgive totally and completely 70x7? What’s the downside? Other than the loss of justice on your part, which you don’t have anyway. Doesn’t it seem a little foolish to presume the good graces of your soul without a complete commitment to forgive?

But the most compelling reason of all should be this:
your offer of forgiveness may bring a person to conversion, as has happened countless times “over 2000 years”. Isn’t that why God breathed life into you, that you might glorify his power by your treatment of others?

Maria Goretti is one shining example the Church gives us, that forgiveness is the free act of a free person, unencumbered by the demand for justice. Maria Goretti forgave her murderer from her deathbed.
Using your idea of forgiveness, she is a fool, not a saint, because the repentance of her murderer was not a factor in her forgiveness.
But her unconditional forgiveness **saved another human soul. **
I think I’d like to be like her.

mariagoretti.com/how-to-forgive/

I think 1) you are reading into things that are not there and
2) I do think of Maria in this subject. We were discussing this just the other day with some friends. I think the example she set was Holy. But like with many things saints do, not binding on others. For instance, we do not bind everyone to join the military to fight for justice because Joan of Arc did. We do not require that people MUST be Marytrs, we only say that if you are, that is noble.

This is a good parallel.
MUST we all be a martyr if that choice came to us? Would we be condemned if we were not? Or simply would we all like to think we would always choose that…

 

[clem456]

I think 1) you are reading into things that are not there and
2) I do think of Maria in this subject. We were discussing this just the other day with some friends. I think the example she set was Holy. But like with many things saints do, not binding on others. For instance, we do not bind everyone to join the military to fight for justice because Joan of Arc did. We do not require that people MUST be Marytrs, we only say that if you are, that is noble.

This is a good parallel.
MUST we all be a martyr if that choice came to us? Would we be condemned if we were not? Or simply would we all like to think we would always choose that…

Seriously?

I think you know the answer to your own question.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Seriously?

I think you know the answer to your own question.

What do you mean?

 

[DonCampbell]

I think today’s Gospel reading from Mark,(the parable of the sower) actually sheds some light on this question. To me, it very strongly implies that unless one coverts he remains unforgiven.

Mark 4:11-12

11 He answered them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables,

12 so that

‘they may look and see but not perceive,

and hear and listen but not understand,

in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.’”

This statement makes no sense if God has already forgiven everyone. Jesus seems to say that there is no forgiveness without conversion, and there is no conversion without understanding, and that he is intentionally speaking in parables to keep “those outside” from comprehending his message. I will have to ponder that one for a while.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

We only sin against God, so why should they repent to us, if we are harmed?

Psalm 51

1
Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2
Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3
For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4
Against you, you only, have I sinned

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

We only sin against God, so why should they repent to us, if we are harmed?

Psalm 51

1
Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2
Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3
For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4
Against you, you only, have I sinned

Hmm.
Yes, the CCC does indeed say:

1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125

While all sin is against God and several sins are ONLY against him, not all are. In fact more than half of the Ten commandments involve sins against others. Which is why we have TWO main commandments from Jesus involving sins against God. (Love the Lord your God) and sins against men. (Love your neighbor as yourself.) Though to be certain they both are against God.

To make it plain. Taking the Lords name in vain or skipping Mass on Sunday is a sin ONLY against God. While murder of your neighbor or the rape of someone offends God, AND others.

Matthew 18:15 addresses this.
But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

Interestingly enough, it also addresses the idea of repentance for forgiveness.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Hmm.
While all sin is against God and several sins are ONLY against him, not all are. In fact more than half of the Ten commandments involve sins against others.

.

At some point we shall all have to stand before God, it is at that point that God can put all things right. If someone steals my car, or kills a loved one, I should look on it as a temporary inconvenience. God’s solution is a greater good eternal life, I wont need a man made car in heaven, and if my son is killed, God can restore him to a greater good life after death, we all die at some point, so death is not the biggest problem.

Jesus had to die in order to put all things right, so it seems that we only sin against Jesus, I have to say, I don’t fully understand.

Which is why we have TWO main commandments from Jesus involving sins against God. (Love the Lord your God) and sins against men. (Love your neighbor as yourself.) Though to be certain they both are against God.

How did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loves himself? Those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross, did he pray on the cross, forgive them Father, Except those who don’t repent

Interestingly enough, it also addresses the idea of repentance for forgiveness

Amen, it is far better to repent

 

[Ender]

Already answered these questions. Not going to keep going in circles with you. If it was not with you it was with other posters. I am sure you have kept up with the thread. If not you can find them if you go back a few pages. Please forgive me for not trying to find them or repost them myself I don’t have time right now.

Those questions were rhetorical: we all know the answers. Our sins are not forgiven unless we repent. God does not forgive us beforehand. He may be always ready to forgive us, but forgiveness is conditional - first we must repent.*If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins." *(Jn 1:8)
Ender

 

[clem456]

Those questions were rhetorical: we all know the answers. Our sins are not forgiven unless we repent. God does not forgive us beforehand. He may be always ready to forgive us, but forgiveness is conditional - first we must repent.*If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins." *(Jn 1:8)
Ender

Not sure what you point is.
The question at hand seems to be more difficult somehow:
“Must we forgive the unrepentant”.

Based on what you say above, is your answer something like this:
““We are like God, we should withhold forgiveness until we have the certainty of repentance?””

If that is what you are saying, what do you say to Maria Goretti, Maximillian Kolbe, etc…who radically forgave un-repentant people?They forgave them pre-emptively, and in Goretti’s case, her radical forgiveness converted her own murderer.
(And they are saints. There are more of them like this.
I’m trying to figure out what your alternative proposal is here. I mean, I really think the saints should be models for my life, What better proposal do you have for us than radical forgiveness, 70x7? I am all ears. )

 

[Ender]

Not sure what you point is.
The question at hand seems to be more difficult somehow:
“Must we forgive the unrepentant”.

Based on what you say above, is your answer something like this:
““We are like God, we should withhold forgiveness until we have the certainty of repentance?””

If that is what you are saying, what do you say to Maria Goretti, Maximillian Kolbe, etc…who radically forgave un-repentant people?They forgave them pre-emptively, and in Goretti’s case, her radical forgiveness converted her own murderer.
(And they are saints. There are more of them like this.
I’m trying to figure out what your alternative proposal is here. I mean, I really think the saints should be models for my life, What better proposal do you have for us than radical forgiveness, 70x7? I am all ears. )

My point was to respond to one particular question only: does God forgive us before we repent? The answer to that is no. I don’t understand why addressing one thing at a time is confusing.

Ender

 

[clem456]

My point was to respond to one particular question only: does God forgive us before we repent? The answer to that is no. I don’t understand why addressing one thing at a time is confusing.

Ender

Oh ok.

How do you answer the thread question?

 

[Ender]

How do you answer the thread question?

I answer it the same way I did before (#201): no, we are not obligated to forgive the unrepentant. The obligation to forgive is for those who repent. I have said nothing about whether we may - or perhaps even should - forgive the unrepentant; I’m still trying to work that out.

May we forgive the unrepentant? Probably.
Should we forgive… Perhaps
Must we forgive… No

Ender

 

[clem456]

I answer it the same way I did before (#201): no, we are not obligated to forgive the unrepentant. The obligation to forgive is for those who repent. I have said nothing about whether we may - or perhaps even should - forgive the unrepentant; I’m still trying to work that out.

May we forgive the unrepentant? Probably.
Should we forgive… Perhaps
Must we forgive… No

Ender

And so you have doubts. We all have them. Choosing the best disposition toward others is sometimes murky. Given our doubts, what do you think faith calls us to do?
One statement of faith is

“a total surrender and adherence to Jesus Christ”.

This says nothing about certainty. This says nothing about “must do”, other than we must give 100% commitment to Christ.

The word “must” is not a legal requirement. You are off the hook! There is no Church document mandating your behavior. But if you don’t forgive 70x7, will you know Christ?
How can you know him, if you have not conformed yourself to his life?

The word "must does not enslave us. It is an invitation.
“If you would follow me you must…”

While Christ will (probably) not vaporize you if you do not forgive unconditionally, it would be difficult to follow him without giving yourself to others 70x7.

When he asks us for 70x7 he is not putting the yoke of slavery on us, he is asking us to freely forgive with an open heart.

How do you respond to the witness of Maria Goretti I posted above, And Maximillian Kolbe? These are saints who found forgiveness to be an integral part of being Christian, not one option to be weighed.
Post 207 forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13618112&postcount=207

 

[steve_b]

The answer is that people don’t know and have to delve into semantics and rewording and explaining what others have meant to fit the agenda of mercy without justice. A popular topic these days.

Some believe that if a hypothetical priest molests a teenage boy that the boy is now morally accountable for an action he was blameless in. Which can be proved theologically if the priest was repentant. But if he were denying or even worse, unrepentant the innocent victim would be morally judged on offering " forgiveness". Whatever that means…

Personally I think it is quite obviously spelled out biblically and liturgically how forgiveness is achieved and what the requirements are.

I think a large majority of “forgiveness” is either forgetting something or letting something go, not dwelling on it. And that is fine with smaller offenses. It’s even healthy psychologically and spiritually. And we MUST forgive someone who asks for it. That is clearly the essence of Christianity. But requiring forgiveness of an unrepentant evil one is ridiculous…

Like I mentioned earlier, Saturday I am going to listen to a speaker at a catholic men’s conference on this very subject. I will report back.

I’ll be anxious to here back

 

[steve_b]

I believe the question has already been answered.

So the answer to the question is No?

 

[Ender]

And so you have doubts. We all have them. Choosing the best disposition toward others is sometimes murky. Given our doubts, what do you think faith calls us to do?

I had a (very brief) discussion with a priest about this, and while he did not say forgiveness was an obligation he made it clear that he thought it ought to be done, that it would benefit me. OK, that may be so, but am I to forgive someone because it’s good for me or because it benefits the one who is forgiven, and is it accurate to assume that forgiveness is always for the best for both of us?

But if you don’t forgive 70x7, will you know Christ? How can you know him, if you have not conformed yourself to his life?

No, don’t use this argument. We have already seen that Christ’s command in that instance was to forgive those who repented.

How do you respond to the witness of Maria Goretti I posted above, And Maximillian Kolbe? These are saints who found forgiveness to be an integral part of being Christian, not one option to be weighed.

I have no response to this. 'Tis a puzzlement.

Ender

 

[lilpoppie]

Only if they’re not trolls

 

[Eric_Hyom]

While Christ will (probably) not vaporize you if you do not forgive unconditionally, it would be difficult to follow him without giving yourself to others 70x7.

When he asks us for 70x7 he is not putting the yoke of slavery on us, he is asking us to freely forgive with an open heart.

When we look at Psalm 51:4 it says we only sin against God, so if anyone harms me, why should I seek their repentance if they only sin against God?

Psalm 51[a]

1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned

 

[clem456]

When we look at Psalm 51:4 it says we only sin against God, so if anyone harms me, why should I seek their repentance if they only sin against God?

Psalm 51[a]

1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned

That is a thought provoking question.