Must we forgive the unrepentant?

[Ender]

When we look at Psalm 51:4 it says we only sin against God, so if anyone harms me, why should I seek their repentance if they only sin against God?

This is not how the church interprets sin. We have rather extensively cited this passage from Luke: *“And if the same person sins against you seven times a day…”. *Christ is clearly saying that one person can sin against another, although it is certainly true that one sins against God as well.

Ender

 

[clem456]

This is not how the church interprets sin. We have rather extensively cited this passage from Luke: "And if the same person sins against you seven times a day…". Christ is clearly saying that one person can sin against another, although it is certainly true that one sins against God as well.

Ender

Psalm 51 is not a statement of facts as in a courtroom.
The psalmist is acknowledging his position as a sinner before good itself. God is the sole source of all that is good, and the source of all forgiveness. David is not somehow saying he has not wronged others. The statement “you alone” is not exclusive. Maybe it rather recognizes the unique relationship we have with God and the offense we have commited against that unique relationship. This Psalm is addressing his infidelity with Bathsheba.

Against you, you alone have I sinned;
I have done what is evil in your eyes
So that you are just in your word,
and without reproach in your judgment.c
7
Behold, I was born in guilt,
in sin my mother conceived me.d
8
Behold, you desire true sincerity;
and secretly you teach me wisdom.
9
Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.e
10
You will let me hear gladness and joy;
the bones you have crushed will rejoice.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Psalm 51 is not a statement of facts as in a courtroom.
The psalmist is acknowledging his position as a sinner before good itself. This Psalm is addressing his infidelity with Bathsheba.

Today we might call David’s sin, infidelity, but in David’s time it was called adultery, on top of that, David arranges to have Bathsheba’s husband killed.

So David says in the psalms,

1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned.

Supposing that when David and Bathsheba stand before Christ, Bathsheba does not accept David’s repentance, would Christ forgive him and grant him eternal salvation?

It almost seems that we sin more against Christ, because he chose to die for us, so that sins may be forgiven.

God is the sole source of all that is good, and the source of all forgiveness. David is not somehow saying he has not wronged others. The statement “you alone” is not exclusive. Maybe it rather recognizes the unique relationship we have with God and the offense we have commited against that unique relationship.

I personally feel it is so much better to forgive, even if the other person is not repentant, because it seems that Christ is more forgiving than we are. Imagine standing before Christ, and he is willing to forgive my enemy, but I still choose to hold onto anger, at what point should I let go?

Jesus you are the living Son of God. Have mercy on us. Thank you for loving us. Thank you for you.

Amen

 

[clem456]

Today we might call David’s sin, infidelity, but in David’s time it was called adultery, on top of that, David arranges to have Bathsheba’s husband killed.

So David says in the psalms,

1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned.

Supposing that when David and Bathsheba stand before Christ, Bathsheba does not accept David’s repentance, would Christ forgive him and grant him eternal salvation?

Bathsheba’s hypothetical position has no bearing on God’s mercy. God is God.

It almost seems that we sin more against Christ, because he chose to die for us, so that sins may be forgiven.

I personally feel it is so much better to forgive, even if the other person is not repentant, because it seems that Christ is more forgiving than we are. Imagine standing before Christ, and he is willing to forgive my enemy, but I still choose to hold onto anger, at what point should I let go?
Amen

I would probably let go when I felt the flames of hell nip at my rear end due to my un-forgiveness. But that’s just me, hopefully it comes more naturally to others.

 

[Ender]

I personally feel it is so much better to forgive, even if the other person is not repentant, because it seems that Christ is more forgiving than we are. Imagine standing before Christ, and he is willing to forgive my enemy, but I still choose to hold onto anger, at what point should I let go?

If your enemy has not repented, Christ will not forgive him.CCC1650* Reconciliation through the sacrament of Penance can be granted only to those who have repented…

*CCC1864 *There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.
*Given that you would forgive where Christ does not it would seem that you are more forgiving than he.

Ender

 

[clem456]

geez…

If your enemy has not repented, Christ will not forgive him.CCC1650 Reconciliation through the sacrament of Penance can be granted only to those who have repented…

Of course, that is true. Absolution in the sacrament requires repentance.
You are also aware that God is not bound by the sacraments. (but that’s a different nuance to this issue, not the issue itself)
In relation to the question of forgiveness, you are surely not putting yourself in God’s position in the confessional, or saying you know the state of a person’s soul who has offended you?
If you are not, then what you are doing is making an assumption that a person has not earned your forgiveness.
I hope you do not make a mistake in this area as I believe the consequences of that risky assumption would be tragic. (or, I hope you are sinless…it won’t matter)

CCC1864 There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit.
Given that you would forgive where Christ does not it would seem that you are more forgiving than he.

No, I know my weaknesses. I am going to opt for forgiveness every time to the highest degree possible.
Like Maria Goretti and Maximillian Kolbe.

You never addressed the example of these saints earlier. Why not? I’m not challenging you, I’m just wondering why. If you spend time answering me and others, why wouldn’t these examples of unconditional forgiveness who are canonized by the Church, elicit an examination and reply? If you somehow disagree with pages of discussion, what do you think of these examples of heroic virtue?
Why do you think the Church would bother cannoning such “fools” who forgive evil unrepentant people?

 

[Ender]

Of course, that is true. Absolution in the sacrament requires repentance.

Good, that affirms my comment about a statement Eric Hyom made: “Imagine standing before Christ, and he is willing to forgive my enemy…” I made the same point - Christ does not forgive the unrepentant.

In relation to the question of forgiveness, you are surely not putting yourself in God’s position in the confessional, or saying you know the state of a person’s soul who has offended you?

I did nothing more than make a statement with which you agreed (see above).

Like Maria Goretti and Maximillian Kolbe.

You never addressed the example of these saints earlier. Why not?

I addressed this in post #223; I really have nothing more to add: “I have no response to this. 'Tis a puzzlement.”

If you somehow disagree with pages of discussion, what do you think of these examples of heroic virtue?

What I have disagreed with are invalid arguments, the most common one being that the sins of the unrepentant are forgiven.

Ender

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

What a good day to reflect on repentance…

 

[clem456]

Good, that affirms my comment about a statement Eric Hyom made: “Imagine standing before Christ, and he is willing to forgive my enemy…” I made the same point - Christ does not forgive the unrepentant.
I did nothing more than make a statement with which you agreed (see above).
I addressed this in post #223; I really have nothing more to add: “I have no response to this. 'Tis a puzzlement.”
What I have disagreed with are invalid arguments, the most common one being that the sins of the unrepentant are forgiven.

Ender

You are having a phantom argument.
No one says “the unrepentant are forgiven”. Why do you interject that? Not the question.

“I have no response to this. 'Tis a puzzlement.”

Really that’s it?
Two well known saints…no response,
ooooooK

 

[clem456]

What a good day to reflect on repentance…

Yes it is that.

 

[Ender]

You are having a phantom argument.
No one says “the unrepentant are forgiven”. Why do you interject that? Not the question.

I was clarifying an ambiguity in an earlier statement.

Really that’s it?
Two well known saints…no response,
ooooooK

I would prefer to understand what is taught rather than try to intuit a position based on assumptions. We accept that Christ does not forgive the unrepentant. If we believe we are to forgive the unrepentant then we are also saying we should be more forgiving than Christ. That may be true, but it’s not obvious.

Ender

 

[clem456]

I would prefer to understand what is taught rather than try to intuit a position based on assumptions.
Ender

Then why are you unwilling to even acknowledge let alone discuss the Church’s canonization of these two saints? Why does the Church canonize saints?
What do you think about the examples the Church gives us in St Maria Goretti and St Maximilian Kolbe?
What sort of forgiveness do they exemplify?

 

[Ender]

Then why are you unwilling to even acknowledge let alone discuss the Church’s canonization of these two saints?

What’s to acknowledge? I don’t dispute facts.

What do you think about the examples the Church gives us in St Maria Goretti and St Maximilian Kolbe? What sort of forgiveness do they exemplify?

I don’t know enough about either of them to make assumptions as to why they were canonized. Does a willingness to forgive qualify one for sainthood? Were they canonized solely because they forgave those who persecuted them? Nor does this respond to my comment that your position is we should be more forgiving than Christ.

Ender

 

[Eric_Hyom]

If we believe we are to forgive the unrepentant then we are also saying we should be more forgiving than Christ. That may be true, but it’s not obvious.

Ender

I don’t think we could ever be more forgiving than Christ. When Christ spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, he could do nothing greater.

But how did Christ love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross. We know he prayed on the cross, forgive them Father for they know not what they do. But who and what was Christ asking to be forgiven?

 

[clem456]

I don’t know enough about either of them to make assumptions as to why they were canonized.

That’s why i provided you links to their life stories. No assumptions needed.

Does a willingness to forgive qualify one for sainthood? Were they canonized solely because they forgave those who persecuted them? Nor does this respond to my comment that your position is we should be more forgiving than Christ.

Ender

That was never my “position”. Why are you saying it is.

What do you think specifically about the examples of Maria Goretti and Maximilian Kolbe? Canonized saints both. Forgave unrepentants both.
Let’s talk about them.

 

[Ender]

That was never my “position”. Why are you saying it is?

I understood your position to be that we should forgive the unrepentant. Since Christ does not forgive the unrepentant, this would mean we should be more forgiving than Christ. What am I missing here?

Ender

 

[clem456]

I understood your position to be that we should forgive the unrepentant. Since Christ does not forgive the unrepentant, this would mean we should be more forgiving than Christ. What am I missing here?

Ender

What do you think about the witness of St Maximiliam Kolbe and St Maria Goretti?

 

[o_mlly]

I had always assumed that as Christians we are required to forgive those who have injured / offended us even if they do not seek our forgiveness. …

Our affections drive our attitudes and our attitudes drive our behavior.

What change in our interiority does forgiving bring about – an increase in charity toward the offender? If so, then does our charity toward the offender diminish until the offender repents? If the offender repents through Reconciliation but not to our face, does our diminished charity toward the offender remain?

What change in our attitude does forgiving bring about – a remission of resentment toward the offender? If so, then does our attitude become negative toward the offender until the offender repents?

What change in our behavior toward the offender does forgiving bring about – a reunification? If so, then do we “excommunicate” the offender until the offender repents?

Is the Christian interiority graced when charity is lacking, resentment outstanding, and fraternal communion denied? I think not.

 

[Ender]

What do you think about the witness of St Maximiliam Kolbe and St Maria Goretti?

What I think is that you are evading the question I asked because you don’t know how to answer it.

The witness of those two saints implies we should forgive the unrepentant. We know, however, that the church does not forgive the unrepentant, so if there is a teaching that can resolve this dichotomy I would like to read it. Until I do, the question remains open.

Ender

 

[clem456]

What I think is that you are evading the question I asked because you don’t know how to answer it.

The witness of those two saints implies we should forgive the unrepentant. We know, however, that the church does not forgive the unrepentant, so if there is a teaching that can resolve this dichotomy I would like to read it. Until I do, the question remains open.

Ender

Umm no you are evading. The other questions that you are using as diversions have been addresed ad nauseum in this thread. You are using those for a crutch.

What do you think about the examples of forgiveness we have in St Maria Goretti and St Maximilian Kolbe?