Mutual Enrichment of EF and OF

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Same here - I really cannot see any disadvantage which outweighs the huge advantages of being exposed to more scripture during the Liturgy of the Word, and accordingly more priestly teaching during the homilies upon said scripture.
Eh, there aren’t many good arguments for not inserting a third reading–although I’m not saying a third should be inserted in the EF–but there are good arguments for not having a three year cycle, in my opinion.

The advantage to a one year cycle instead of a three year is that the readings in a one year cycle become ingrained into Catholics’ minds. That is, there is a great benefit to hearing the same readings on the same days year after year, especially for Sundays, Solemnities, and saints’ days. Whereas if there is a three year cycle, the profundity of the readings doesn’t seep in as deeply because the readings are changing every year.

The fact of the matter is that most Catholics are not Scriptural scholars and so we need stability, IMO. In the same way that there is a great value of hearing Haec dies every Easter Sunday (if one uses the Propers…), there is great value of hearing the same readings on any given day year to year. With the three year cycle, some of the true gems of the tradition of the readings in the Roman Rite are relegated to being heard only once every three years; that is sad.
 
Same here - I really cannot see any disadvantage which outweighs the huge advantages of being exposed to more scripture during the Liturgy of the Word, and accordingly more priestly teaching during the homilies upon said scripture.
While I’m not against the incorporation of more Scripture, we can’t just rely on more being better. For example, many of the OT readings require some involved explanations to be of any real benefit for liturgical proclamation…and assuming an individual priest is equipped to help his congregation take something away from these passages, not every sermon can or should be dedicated to an explication of the day’s readings.

I also think there were some odd changes made to readings for given days. Some of the more “difficult” or “negative” passages were either made optional or just left out (and most notably entire psalms or parts of psalms were dropped in the LoTH). But as an example from the Mass - the Feast of Corpus Christi uses 1 Cor 11:23-29 in the TLM, but the last three verses (including the passages about being “guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord”) were dropped in The Solemnity of the Most Holy Body and Blood of Christ.

The yearly cycle is also supplemented much more logically in the readings (including lots of OT content) of the Breviary. The NO Sunday Mass has a three-year cycle, the weekdays run every two-years, and LoTH restarts yearly. That aspect of it just seems a bit haphazard.

Having attended the NO for the first ~20 years of my life and now attending the TLM, I’ve noticed there’s also a certain rhythm to the one-year cycle that develops. I’ve begun to associate certain parables with certain days and can recall them, and the homilies associated with them, in much greater detail. I wouldn’t be against adding another reading to each Mass or having propers for ferias, but I haven’t experienced any problems in the older arrangement either.
 
Eh, there aren’t many good arguments for not inserting a third reading–although I’m not saying a third should be inserted in the EF–but there are good arguments for not having a three year cycle, in my opinion.

The advantage to a one year cycle instead of a three year is that the readings in a one year cycle become ingrained into Catholics’ minds. That is, there is a great benefit to hearing the same readings on the same days year after year, especially for Sundays, Solemnities, and saints’ days. Whereas if there is a three year cycle, the profundity of the readings doesn’t seep in as deeply because the readings are changing every year.

The fact of the matter is that most Catholics are not Scriptural scholars and so we need stability, IMO. In the same way that there is a great value of hearing Haec dies every Easter Sunday (if one uses the Propers…), there is great value of hearing the same readings on any given day year to year. With the three year cycle, some of the true gems of the tradition of the readings in the Roman Rite are relegated to being heard only once every three years; that is sad.
They don’t change every year, they are merely repeated every three years as opposed to every single year.

In my relatively young (I am late 30s) lifetime I have heard the entire cycle 9 or 10 times. That is surely more than enough for anyone to memorise who is interested in committing verses to heart. If it had been 30 times I am confident I would remember them no better, nor would most people. Likewise I am confident that I would not put any of the scripture I have heard into practice any the better for hearing it three times as often.

Besides which, we are not Muslims who prize rote learning of scripture for its own sake.

And gems are no less radiant for not being on display all the time, or for being mingled among lots of other gems as opposed to only a few.

There are many treasures of the Old Testament at least which were surely being somewhat ignored with the one-year cycle. Why not take 'em out of the store cupboard?
 
While I’m not against the incorporation of more Scripture, we can’t just rely on more being better. For example, many of the OT readings require some involved explanations to be of any real benefit for liturgical proclamation…and assuming an individual priest is equipped to help his congregation take something away from these passages, not every sermon can or should be dedicated to an explication of the day’s readings.

I also think there were some odd changes made to readings for given days. Some of the more “difficult” or “negative” passages were either made optional or just left out (and most notably entire psalms or parts of psalms were dropped in the LoTH). But as an example from the Mass - the Feast of Corpus Christi uses 1 Cor 11:23-29 in the TLM, but the last three verses (including the passages about being “guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord”) were dropped in The Solemnity of the Most Holy Body and Blood of Christ.

The yearly cycle is also supplemented much more logically in the readings (including lots of OT content) of the Breviary. The NO Sunday Mass has a three-year cycle, the weekdays run every two-years, and LoTH restarts yearly. That aspect of it just seems a bit haphazard.

Having attended the NO for the first ~20 years of my life and now attending the TLM, I’ve noticed there’s also a certain rhythm to the one-year cycle that develops. I’ve begun to associate certain parables with certain days and can recall them, and the homilies associated with them, in much greater detail. I wouldn’t be against adding another reading to each Mass or having propers for ferias, but I haven’t experienced any problems in the older arrangement either.
I don’t particularly like the shortened options either, but even so all scripture is profitable for those minded to learn from it - remember St Francis of Assisi seeking divine guidance and simply letting his Bible fall open at a random passage which provided it?

And plenty of times I have been intrigued by a particular juxtaposition of readings on a given Sunday and found, either through the homily or simply in my own musings on the readings, new connections and insights which otherwise would not have occurred to me.
 
and accordingly more priestly teaching during the homilies upon said scripture.
I just have an honest follow-up on this point…especially with regard to the OT readings, has that been your experience? In around 20 years at probably a dozen parishes with several men (deacons and priests) preaching at each parish, the OT readings were almost universally ignored in the homily. I always found that odd since, you’re right, there’s some valuable material in them.
 
I think you may have made me realize why I like the OF so much; I am very draw to monastic spirituality in particular monastic simplicity. There’s also a community aspect to the OF; in monastic tradition monks wouldn’t sit quietly as the priest celebrated the Mass but they would chant responsorially in choir as active participants in the liturgy, even those not ordained (and in early monastic times most were not ordained). It also a reason why versus populum was not unknown in the monastic tradition.
Going back to the idea of mutual enrichment, this is as good a place as any to start. If parishes and dioceses adopted a good religious formation program for adult faith formators, all of this can be taught. Adult faith formators, are adults who lead faith formation such as DRE’s, teachers in CCD, RCIA, and RCIT, youth ministers, and others who are in the field of formation of the laity. Most of these are laymen who lack formation themselves. God bless them for stepping up to the plate and volunteering. They still need formation.

This is an area that should be included so that when a question comes up about the mass in either form, they can offer an explanation instead of becoming defensive or offensive about one form or the other. How many people actually know that in many monasteries the monks did not face East, but rather the sanctuary is on the eastern wall. But the monks either face each other or are positioned in a circle around the altar? How many people know that there there was often a monastery church in a community that served the laity and the monks?

For example, Gregorian Chant comes to us from monasticism. All of the mendicants, except the Franciscans, took it with them to the people. Franciscans introduced hymns into the mass, instead of Gregorian music. Long before Trent you already had Gregorian music in most churches and local music in Franciscan churches. However, since the Franciscans were the largest religious family in the Church, they were almost 1/3 of the churches in Latin Europe. There were always these two elements.

What’s really exciting to see is that the Tridentine Form was really the Franciscan form from about 1209 until the time of St. Pius V. It was not that common among other religious or among secular clergy. Yet, the Franciscans did not use Gregorian Chant and other forms of the mass did. St. Pius V took the Franciscan’s mass, added Gregorian Chant from the Benedictine tradition and added the prayers at the foot of the altar plus a few other things. The most discernable change that he added was Gregorian Chant. That’s when the Tridentine form was born. It was really a modification of what was called the Pope’s Mass, which was rarely used and it allegedly goes back to the time of the Apostles. However, it had been shelved for a very long time until Francis introduced it again.

The switch transfer of Gregorian Chant to this older form is a wonderful example of one form of the mass enriching the other. The mass that the Benedictines of the time celebrated did not look anything like the Tridentine mass. It was much more austere.

The mass the the Franciscans and Augustinians were left with was the mother of the Tridentine Form, which was also austere, but without Gregorian Chant. It is this form of the mass that the revised form of Pope Paul VI tried to recover. Again, allegedly, this form goes back to the Apostles. But the truth is that this form gave birth to the Tridentine Form. We have this back and forth movement through history where forms enrich other forms. Of course, just like today, there were also arguments about “My mass is better than your mass.” Such arguments were ridiculous then and are ridiculous today.
We shouldn’t just be talking about OF and EF mutual enrichment, but how the various orders and communities have enriched the Church, and nurtured and developed its liturgies (plural), not just the Mass but the entire liturgy.
I think this should be part of formation in the liturgy. I wouldn’t exclude discussion on the forms. The problem here is going to be that many lay people on the extremes, radical traditionalists and radical progressives (I hate labels) are not going to want to hear this. They need to hear it more than anyone else. I have been under fire by both groups many times. It’s funny, because the one time that the pro-women priests Catholics and the anti-OF Catholics get together is to reject the idea that religious life has anything to contribute to the liturgical life of the Church. Both sides have forgotten that the religious orders, especially the older ones: monks and friars, to this day control the liturgy. Neither side has much use for religious who disagree with it. Which is the majority of monks and friars. You should see the hate mail that we get from both parties. You would think that people have better things to do right? Wrong. 🤷
 
Br JR, I wasn’t aware of such allowed variations in the EF. In this case, Trent pre-supposed that the design of the Mass was such that certain parts were supposed to be said submissa voce (in a low voice). (Session 22)

That said, some EF’s are completely silent during the canon and some are whisper-microphoned. I suppose there are different interpretations and volumes of *submissa voce *but it seems that the contrast principles of Trent still hold even in those EFs. Having everything at the same tone would be against that principle IMO.
We have to understand several things about Trent and the mass. The council did not declare any dogma concerning the form of the mass. This has always been a misunderstanding since the birth of the Ordinary Form. The fact that the Holy Father used the words, “in perpetuity” and that he anathemized anyone who would dare to touch the form of the mass, does not mean that it was binding.

This requires a careful clarification. I hope that I’m not misquoted all over the Internet. First, the Holy Father was not trying to make a dogmatic statement about the form of the mass. The form of the mass is not part of revealed dogma. The proclamation of the Word is and so is the Eucharist. The rest is not revealed dogma. When speaking about the mass, the council fathers and Pope Pius V, were not declaring a dogma. This leads to the second point.

There were a number of missals floating around. Some of them were of a suspicious nature. I have never seen one, but some writers suggest that some of the prefaces and collects could have contained heresy. I’ll take their word for it. Whatever was the case, one thing is true. The Latin Church needed to unify the liturgy as much as possible. She needed to do it quickly and forcefully. Heresy was creeping into the mass in some places. This called for a forceful decree by the Council and the Pope. Hence the very forceful language that includes anathemas, etc. This language was meant to protect the Church from heresy and to bind until such time as another pope or council went in a different direction. These men were very intelligent and knew that they could not find future councils and much less bind future popes. Pius V was very holy and didn’t want to try to be a despot. He was actually a very loving man. We need to teach this as well. This would clarify many misconceptions. One of the best examples that I can think of is that St. Pius made his famous declaration about the perpetuity of the Roman Missal, but it did not apply to the Dominicans, the Carthusians, the Carmelites or the Norbetines. These orders were free to use either their own rite or the Roman Rite. With the Franciscans, the only issue was the Gregorian Chant and the prayers at the foot of the altar. The rest was not an issue, because it was really the mass that they had celebrated since 1209. So St. Pius gave them permission not to use the prayers at the foot of the altar and to use local hymns in place of Gregorian Chant. Reason tells us that if this had been the only mass of the Latin Church, the other forms would have been banned That was not the case. Therefore, we can assume that his anathemas and his demand that no one touch the mass was meant to address a very specific problem. Over the centuries, all of these forms enriched each other by borrowing. For example, some Franciscans began to use the prayers at the foot of the altar. The Dominicans made some changes that brought them closer to the Tridentine Form. The Augustinians kept the older Benedictine simplicity. These are wonderful examples of enrichment.
I would not have said “attractive” to Protestants but “accessible” to them. That actually matches my personal experience. I was a Protestant when I first encountered the Catholic Mass and it was the Eucharist that drew me to the Church.
You got me there. I’m not sure how accessible applies here. I understand the part about the Eucharist. One of my favorite saints, Elizabeth Ann Seton, was attracted by the Eucharist.
Eh, there aren’t many good arguments for not inserting a third reading–although I’m not saying a third should be inserted in the EF–but there are good arguments for not having a three year cycle, in my opinion.
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Almost everything in life has a positive, if we look for it. The positive of the one year cycle as used in the EF is as you rightly say. People remember by association. They remember the Feast of St. N. That brings to mind that certain biblical story that they liked or did not like. At least they remember it. On the other side, the idea of a three year cycle is very attractive to people like me, because we get to hear more the bible. Sundays alone would be 156 different readings. If you go to daily mass that’s several hundred more. Both have merit.

Both also have a weakness. The three year cycle does not lend itself to easy memorization as you rightly point out. The one year cyle is a limited exposure to the scripture. Those who do not read the bible at home, miss a lot.
 
I just have an honest follow-up on this point…especially with regard to the OT readings, has that been your experience? In around 20 years at probably a dozen parishes with several men (deacons and priests) preaching at each parish, the OT readings were almost universally ignored in the homily. I always found that odd since, you’re right, there’s some valuable material in them.
This has not been my experience. Sure, on occasion the OT reading may get shortchanged, or een worse the scriptures of the day get ignored altogether insted. Neither, though, has been especially common in the Masses I have attended.
 
We have this back and forth movement through history where forms enrich other forms. Of course, just like today, there were also arguments about “My mass is better than your mass.” Such arguments were ridiculous then and are ridiculous today.
This is why I am thinking that we ought to take the principle of mutual enrichment and extend if beyond the forms of the Mass to the people who identify themselves with the forms. As a person who prefers the EF, I need to approach those who prefer the OF, not only with a basic attitude of respect, but with an expectation that they have something to teach me.
 
If you import vernacular, OT readings, newer saints and versus-populum to the EF, you might as well say the OF. That’s not enrichment. It’s tinkering. It will annoy traditionalists.

Eventually, mainstream religious and clergy will realise what traditionalists consciously and sub-consciously ‘get’: that the EF, as is, offers an excellent mechanism to worship God, humbly, beautifully and impersonally.

Co-incidentally, I attended a mass recently by a priest who likes to try to mix them. The effect is unsettling and exasperating. Just do what it says in the book!

We really need to drop the idea of mass as personal theatre and instead, consider what would effect a sense of holiness in all present. And you know what, the work has already been done!
 
Eh, there aren’t many good arguments for not inserting a third reading–although I’m not saying a third should be inserted in the EF–but there are good arguments for not having a three year cycle, in my opinion.

The advantage to a one year cycle instead of a three year is that the readings in a one year cycle become ingrained into Catholics’ minds. That is, there is a great benefit to hearing the same readings on the same days year after year, especially for Sundays, Solemnities, and saints’ days. Whereas if there is a three year cycle, the profundity of the readings doesn’t seep in as deeply because the readings are changing every year.

The fact of the matter is that most Catholics are not Scriptural scholars and so we need stability, IMO. In the same way that there is a great value of hearing Haec dies every Easter Sunday (if one uses the Propers…), there is great value of hearing the same readings on any given day year to year. With the three year cycle, some of the true gems of the tradition of the readings in the Roman Rite are relegated to being heard only once every three years; that is sad.
Except that without it, an entire gospel is left out. That too would be sad.
LoTH restarts yearly.
That’s only one option. There is an optional two-year lectionary for the LOTH. It is the one I use because in fact there’s more scripture, and it’s good scripture (not to mention more patristic readings). I also use it because the abbey I’m affiliated with uses it.

There are in fact some readings in the three year cycle that come back annually.
 
We really need to drop the idea of mass as personal theatre and instead, consider what would effect a sense of holiness in all present. And you know what, the work has already been done!
This kind of discourse really adds nothing to the debate, and is rather insulting to those who do not consider the OF “personal theater”. I can assure you from years of attending OF Mass at different Benedictine monasteries, that while good liturgy is in a sense choreography, it is most certainly not personal theater.

Please consider a more respectful approach.
 
Co-incidentally, I attended a mass recently by a priest who likes to try to mix them. The effect is unsettling and exasperating. Just do what it says in the book!!
It is simply wrong for a priest to experiment like that and not at all what is meant by mutual enrichment. Priests do not have the authority to change things in the Mass. They must, as you say, just do what it says in the book.
 
At the risk of being fippant, I’d be pretty much fine the Church just took a page from our Western Rite Orthodox brothers and sisters, took the Sarum Rite and make sure that any issues which crept in from Anglicanism are taken care of, and move on from there. We’d end up with a beautiful Mass in the vernacular which is also quite traditional in origin. Then we could just leave the Tridentine Rite alone, and keep working to expand its availability for those who prefer it. Then, allow the various religious orders to use their own approved traditional rites or, one of the Roman rites as they prefer, and move on from there.

Liturgical diversity in the Church is not a bad thing providing it is done well, and was in fact the norm for many years. At one time, when communication was difficult it might have made sense to standardize things but in this day and age, there is no reason why it could not be done successfully.
 
We have to understand several things about Trent and the mass. The council did not declare any dogma concerning the form of the mass. This has always been a misunderstanding since the birth of the Ordinary Form. The fact that the Holy Father used the words, “in perpetuity” and that he anathemized anyone who would dare to touch the form of the mass, does not mean that it was binding.
Br. JR, I don’t understand the problem. Submissa voce is used in everyday conversations although albeit in more subtle ways than in the EF. Trent merely pointed to the contrast and meanings behind low tones and higher tones used in the liturgy. Has nothing to do with OF per se. I go to Spanish Masses. I don’t understand too much of the sermon but at least I can follow the tone. That alone can be spiritually fulfilling.
 
If you import vernacular, OT readings, newer saints and versus-populum to the EF, you might as well say the OF. That’s not enrichment. It’s tinkering. It will annoy traditionalists.
Not to mention the handmissal users who would have to purchase updated missals every few years. Just saying.
 
The advantage to a one year cycle instead of a three year is that the readings in a one year cycle become ingrained into Catholics’ minds. That is, there is a great benefit to hearing the same readings on the same days year after year, especially for Sundays, Solemnities, and saints’ days. Whereas if there is a three year cycle, the profundity of the readings doesn’t seep in as deeply because the readings are changing every year.
It is personal preference but I agree with you. Every Sunday is a special event, whether it’s Easter or the 4th Sunday after Pentecost. There have been prescribed readings for each Sunday and generally that theme is followed throughout the readings, sometimes even repeated at the Offertory, Secret, and Postcommunion prayers. This alone REINFORCES that theme and keeps one mindful of the event. One does not need to bring a stopwatch or note the number of different versicles used at Mass and then claim the more the better. That argument misses the point about the spirituality one can attain from assisting at Mass IMO. The Mass is not Bible school.
 
At the risk of being fippant, I’d be pretty much fine the Church just took a page from our Western Rite Orthodox brothers and sisters, took the Sarum Rite and make sure that any issues which crept in from Anglicanism are taken care of, and move on from there. We’d end up with a beautiful Mass in the vernacular which is also quite traditional in origin. Then we could just leave the Tridentine Rite alone, and keep working to expand its availability for those who prefer it. Then, allow the various religious orders to use their own approved traditional rites or, one of the Roman rites as they prefer, and move on from there.

Liturgical diversity in the Church is not a bad thing providing it is done well, and was in fact the norm for many years. At one time, when communication was difficult it might have made sense to standardize things but in this day and age, there is no reason why it could not be done successfully.
The Anglican Use is your friend 😉
 
It is personal preference but I agree with you. Every Sunday is a special event, whether it’s Easter or the 4th Sunday after Pentecost. There have been prescribed readings for each Sunday and generally that theme is followed throughout the readings, sometimes even repeated at the Offertory, Secret, and Postcommunion prayers. This alone REINFORCES that theme and keeps one mindful of the event. One does not need to bring a stopwatch or note the number of different versicles used at Mass and then claim the more the better. That argument misses the point about the spirituality one can attain from assisting at Mass IMO. The Mass is not Bible school.
In the new Roman Gradual the chants have been set to the correct liturgical year. Note that many of them pass regardless of what year we’re in, but in many cases there are different selections for one of the other of the proper antiphons for the current year (either introit, gradual, alleluia, offertory or communion). It wasn’t really a big issue except for Year B as the Gospel of St. Mark was not read previously.

Personally I like the OT readings and how they made the prophetic ones correspond to the Gospel.
 
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