Mutual masturbation

[tjm190]

No. masturbation is the deliberate stimulation of one’s genitals in order seek pleasure for one’s self. Unless you are refering to mutual masturbation which still is requried to end inside the wife.

The claim was that masturbation is any sexual stimulation besides vaginal intercourse- even by your definition, this claim is still false.

The idea of the story of Onan to show that God hates when we use our sexual facilities outside thier intended purpose. That purpose being “the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved” according to the CCC.

See above. (as in the above post, rather than the above section of this post)

 

[kage_ar]

I think that’s a very simplistic answer to a complex issue of biblical exegesis.

If someone wants go go deeper, they can read the Church Documents.

They area all available free on line

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Well let’s see-
Onan was given a command. He could either fulfill that command or not. If he did, he would gain the benefits associated with sex. If he failed to fulfill the command, he would receive a punishment associated with failing to fulfill the command. Onan was a devious guy, so he devised a plan to avoid the punishment, while still gaining the reward. God did not like this and lightning-bolted him.
The fact that he used a primitive birth control method to get around his obligation is not a referendum on birth control. And birth control is not masturbation.

This is a very well thought out explanation! I like it!

However, it reinforces my belief against artificial contraception.

God’s first, FIRST, command to us. “Be fruitful and multiply.” He TOLD us to have sex, AND make babies.

How is birth control not purposely avoiding that command while still reaping the benefits of sexual pleasure?

 

[stringbeanduck]

The claim was that masturbation is any sexual stimulation besides vaginal intercourse- even by your definition, this claim is still false.

See above. (as in the above post, rather than the above section of this post)

Secular definition of masturbation:

Erotic stimulation especially of one’s own genital organs commonly resulting in orgasm and achieved by manual or other bodily contact exclusive of sexual intercourse, by instrumental manipulation, occasionally by sexual fantasies, or by various combinations of these agencies

Catholic church definition of masturbation:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure.

 

[tjm190]

This is a very well thought out explanation! I like it!

However, it reinforces my belief against artificial contraception.

God’s first, FIRST, command to us. “Be fruitful and multiply.” He TOLD us to have sex, AND make babies.

How is birth control not purposely avoiding that command while still reaping the benefits of sexual pleasure?

I would consider the way God is speaking that early in Genesis- When God said ‘let there be light’ He was not issuing a command to light, but rather speaking it into existence. “Be fruitful and multiply” would be more providing the ability to reproduce to man, rather than commanding it. After all, He also said that to all of the other creatures on their creation days- but these things are not even capable of sin!
In that same breath, God also went on to tell us subdue the Earth- if this was meant as a command, would living ‘in harmony’ with nature be sinful?

And of course, a great deal of holy mean fail to be fruitful and multiply- I would not consider an oath of celibacy sinful.

 

[tjm190]

Secular definition of masturbation:

Catholic church definition of masturbation:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure.

I would infer that sex itself is masturbation then.

 

[camerong]

Catholic church definition of masturbation:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure.

I would infer that sex itself is masturbation then.

Really? Really? The purpose of sex within a marriage is NOT deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. Not even close, not even a little bit. That’s a little like saying we eat food because it tastes good. But your characterization is even worse than that… Its not just, as secular people might say, that sex is an unifying act of love. It is, sure. But I have sex with my wife as an expression of our unity which reflects the unity of Christ and His Church. I give myself to my wife, and she to me, as Christ gives Himself to the Church. Sex within my marriage is a most Holy Office to which I have been called. And even though the pleasure is not even remotely the point, I will also say that the pleasure in Holy sex is of a completely different character than masturbation. The carnal aspect of the pleasure pales in comparison with the spiritual aspect.

In this way, I almost don’t think its quite right to say Catholics oppose masturbation per se. Its that we know the real alternative to be so unimaginably better that we cannot bear to be distracted by a cheap counterfeit.

 

[Elizabeth502]

In this way, I almost don’t think its quite right to say Catholics oppose masturbation per se. Its that we know the real alternative to be so unimaginably better that we cannot bear to be distracted by a cheap counterfeit.

Again, (as with the other two recently closed threads), why does this continue to be an ambiguity in many people’s minds? People are free to imagine that Catholics “do not oppose masturbation per se,” but if so, these Catholics are not in accord with Catholic doctrine.

And when we substitute a gift of God with distorted (turned inward) “cheap counterfeits,” we sin against ourselves and against God, which is additionally a sin against gratitude toward his goodness, a sin against self-respect, and more.

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

JMJ

Do you know how good it feels to hit someone who ticks you off?

Your argument doesn’t stand.

Hmmmm NO, but sometimes I’d sure like to!

I agree, though, the argument doesn’t stand. First, as a Catholic we defer to the teaching of the Church. If we want to understand why the Church teaches something we read about it, talk with a priest, etc. I would start with Humanae Vitae.

Why isn’t anyone talking about NFP? The OP referred to wanting to space out their children. We practiced NFP for quite a while, it’s not the old rhythm method and is much more accurate than contraceptives. There are some very helpful postings here on CA that discuss the new methods. Safe, natural and improves intimacy. I recommend it. FWIW

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

:tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

Really? Really? The purpose of sex within a marriage is NOT deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. Not even close, not even a little bit. That’s a little like saying we eat food because it tastes good. But your characterization is even worse than that… Its not just, as secular people might say, that sex is an unifying act of love. It is, sure. But I have sex with my wife as an expression of our unity which reflects the unity of Christ and His Church. I give myself to my wife, and she to me, as Christ gives Himself to the Church. Sex within my marriage is a most Holy Office to which I have been called. And even though the pleasure is not even remotely the point, I will also say that the pleasure in Holy sex is of a completely different character than masturbation. The carnal aspect of the pleasure pales in comparison with the spiritual aspect.

In this way, I almost don’t think its quite right to say Catholics oppose masturbation per se. Its that we know the real alternative to be so unimaginably better that we cannot bear to be distracted by a cheap counterfeit.

:tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

That was simply beautiful!

 

[fbl9]

Here’s a question about masturbation within a marriage. What if:

Either the husband or wife require (or like) some hand stimulation before the conjugal act, are open to children, but don’t actually end up having intercourse (for any of a variety of reasons, including the wife falling asleep . If there is the intent of intercourse, perhaps even just a weak possibility, but it doesn’t actually happen, then is mutual masturbation in that case a sin?

how abouts if both fall asleep,…“weak possiblity” means what? If the intent was to use mutual mb to the end then yes there is sin.

And if it is a sin, is the gravity of it lessened at all by other factors, which could include discomfort by one of the spouses from the actual act— due to physical problems or just lack of practice.

if the marital act causes pain for one then the other must do all they can so there is no pain ,but still this does not mean the one without pain has a right to “satisfaction”

I think I read somewhere that a broader spectrum of sexual acts are permissable as long as they lead to or follow intercourse. If this is true, is there a time limit on these activities, for example, could they be permissable the night before a morning where the “marital act” is likely to happen?

an example being the male having “hair trigger” and gets releived the night before the morning act… no this is sinful in that the male is not planting his seed.

I am not trying to be legalistic here, just wondering in which cases I need to rush out to Confession, and where I might be a safe zone.

Thoughts please?

Please be mindful the sacrement of reconcillation is not meant for one to indulge in sin ,confess, and everything is good.

 

[surritter]

Well let’s see-
Onan was given a command. He could either fulfill that command or not. If he did, he would gain the benefits associated with sex. If he failed to fulfill the command, he would receive a punishment associated with failing to fulfill the command. Onan was a devious guy, so he devised a plan to avoid the punishment, while still gaining the reward. God did not like this and lightning-bolted him.
The fact that he used a primitive birth control method to get around his obligation is not a referendum on birth control. And birth control is not masturbation.

Onan was not punished merely for disobedience. The punishment under the OT law for failing to “raise up seed for a dead brother” is not death but merely to have the widow publicly remove her brother-in-law’s sandal and spit in his face (Deut. 25:5–10).

Ergo, Onan was slain for seed-spilling. Say that 5 times fast.

 

[prettylarge]

In Catholicism there are no “what if” because we hold true to our faith. The idea of being wrong is not part of the Catholic Church. The church was founded on truth by Christ and that is what we believe. If you accept this; you accept it. If you don’t; you don’t. That’s all there is to it.

If a religion existed, but acknowledged that they might be wrong, that doesn’t say much for the solidity of that faith.

Oh, well you made a really good argument. I now believe that the Catholic Church is the only true faith…you know, because you told me that it is. You should be on a debate team.

 

[prettylarge]

JMJ

What’s popular isn’t always right. Look at the apparitions of the Virgin Mary, the Eucharistic miracles. Look at the lives of the Saints (those who lived and breathed Christ) and the miracles involved there. Look at Christ Himself? What other God do you know of that was willing to suffer to that extent for His people?

David Koresh wasn’t very popular either…that doesn’t mean he is right.

 

[prettylarge]

Does it make sense to try to consume food through the vagina?

Well, the vagina cannot process food…but the mouth can certainly process semen.

 

[prettylarge]

So since the mouth was made to receive nutrition I guess kissing is out of the picture?

You can only kiss if you end with intercourse…I wish I could have convinced girls of this a before I was married

 

[prettylarge]

If two people simple enjoy oral sex, what’s the harm? Who’s to say that the sole purpose of sexual pleasure is to encourage reproduction? It’s obviously a purpose, but can there not be others? It seems to me you’re presuming a lot about God’s intent here.

Yeah, according to this line of logic, having sex with your wife after menopause is a mortal sin.

 

[fbl9]

Well, the vagina cannot process food…but the mouth can certainly process semen.

wow i never knew that the mouth could process semen for it’s intended purpose,how many people do you know got pregnant this way?

 

[prettylarge]

One should probably point out that for many women out there oral sex causes oral infections. So yes, oral sex does do damage to the body. Just thought I’d point that out.

lol, comparing the damage of giving oral sex and cigarettes is SOOOOOOOO RIDICULOUS. One of these kills millions of people, and the other kills none.

 

[prettylarge]

You know, I am a Christian. For me, because God said so is good enough.

lol, God didn’t say this.