My #1 reason for not converting...

[Teflon93]

If it’s all about God, why do you want to spend more time listening to Man?

The focus of Mass is on the Living Presence in the Eucharist. Prideful preaching simply detracts from the reverence we have for Christ before us and within us.

It amazes me how many people criticize Mass for not being entertaining enough. Mass is the Last Supper—it isn’t SUPPOSED to be entertaining.

 

[Teflon93]

Maybe the Baptist minister is talking for 45 minutes, but is he talking Truth or picking verses he wants to shout at the congregation about?

Without the Graces of the Sacraments, we cannot know, love, and serve God.

It’s a lot easier to give a fired-up, hellfire-and-brimstone, pulpit-thumper of a sermon when you haven’t been up all night anointing the sick at the hospital, a common duty for our priests.

I’ve got to say–some of us really need to reassess priorities. The shepherd does a lot more than entertain the flock in a sermon. Or is supposed to, anyway. There are way too many communities out there with pastors who “save it up” for Sunday but can’t even be seen by appointment to provide pastoral care.

Let me tell you about our priests: when my wife and I approached them between Masses to inquire about getting her anointed (we were having trouble conceiving), they insisted upon anointing her on the spot. In the Catholic Church, this involves some preparation and takes a good 10-15 minutes, tough to do when there are only 20 minutes till the next Mass. We found out baby number one was on the way shortly thereafter.

So would I prefer a dazzling one-man show in the pulpit or someone who will anoint my wife when she requires it? You keep Pastor Pants-On-Fire, I’ll take my priests any day of the week.

Pastoral care matters. When you need it, you’ll realize how much (if you don’t already).

 

[grandfather]

I just dropped in and read a few posts here.
Debate can become emotional and contentious. This is understandable when the things debated have great importance to the debaters. For those invloved in this great wave of Catholic apologetics that has emerged in the past decade or so, and who are very enthusiastic about it, be mindful that you may win the debates and accomplish nothing for souls. I have won my share of debates. It is not difficult to refute error if you know how. I have found that a much greater influence with people is not intellectual superiority, but love, or charity. Love is irresistable when it is genuine. Losing an argument only proves that a person did was unable to answer a challenge to his doctrine. That does not prove there is no answer. Do we want to prove our doctrine is true and someone else’s is in error, we are right and they are wrong, or do we want to see souls blessed and receive the benefits of grace? Of course this is not an either/or question. We want both, but how we go about telling the story determines whether it will be accepted or rejected as much as the rightness of the story. You can win all the debates and arguments and drive people away from the truth. Paul says if we do not have love we are clanging gongs. Are we clanging or loving? That is the either/or question.

 

[rr1213]

Ok, there has been about five recent posts in this thread which seem to equate sermons by Protestant clergy as “pulpit pounding” diatribes. Let’s not let the stereotypes prevail here. I’ve seldom heard such a sermon in the Protestant Churches I’ve attended regularly (Methodist, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Baptist and Lutheran). In contrast, I’ve heard thoughtful sermons, some better than others. Not every Protestant preacher is a fundmentalist bible-thumper. Indeed, most are not.

The best teachers I’ve heard have been two PCA pastors whose Churches I attended decades ago, the Episcopal Priest in my old Parish, and the assistant pastor in the Lutheran Church I’m attending now. None of these guys is a pulpit pounder, but all are quite learned, know and love theWord of God and teach it mightily and effectively from the pulpit.

In contrast, the homilies I’ve heard from Catholic priests were, frankly, more often poor than not. Now, I recognize that there must be priests out there who are quite capable and can preach a darn good homily. I just haven’t heard them yet. And I don’t think that my opinion of Catholic homilies is just an isolated unlearned opinion. There seems to be plenty of Catholics who are not satisfied with the general quality of homilies also.

 

[Teflon93]

Ok, there has been about five recent posts in this thread which seem to equate sermons by Protestant clergy as “pulpit pounding” diatribes. Let’s not let the stereotypes prevail here. I’ve seldom heard such a sermon in the Protestant Churches I’ve attended regularly (Methodist, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Baptist and Lutheran). In contrast, I’ve heard thoughtful sermons, some better than others. Not every Protestant preacher is a fundmentalist bible-thumper. Indeed, most are not.

The best teachers I’ve heard have been two PCA pastors whose Churches I attended decades ago, the Episcopal Priest in my old Parish, and the assistant pastor in the Lutheran Church I’m attending now. None of these guys is a pulpit pounder, but all are quite learned, know and love theWord of God and teach it mightily and effectively from the pulpit.

In contrast, the homilies I’ve heard from Catholic priests were, frankly, more often poor than not. Now, I recognize that there must be priests out there who are quite capable and can preach a darn good homily. I just haven’t heard them yet. And I don’t think that my opinion of Catholic homilies is just an isolated unlearned opinion. There seems to be plenty of Catholics who are not satisfied with the general quality of homilies also.

Now RR, not every response is directed toward you. There are a LOT of Protestants who DO emphasize the pulpit-thumpers. My wife used to be one. And you well know the Protestant community includes pulpit-thumping as well as more mainline sermonizing.

I will stipulate I’ve never heard Methodist pulpit-thumping, although they used to be renowned for it.

I’ve never heard Presbyterian pulpit-thumping—ditto.

I’ve never heard Episcopalian pulpit-thumping.

But Pentecostals and Baptists thump some pulpits.

So let’s not deny the obvious, either. I’ve also stipulated earlier to the fact that not every priest is a good homilist, and offered one reason why: the homily is not the focus of priesthood.

 

[Hellisreal]

Ok, there has been about five recent posts in this thread which seem to equate sermons by Protestant clergy as “pulpit pounding” diatribes. Let’s not let the stereotypes prevail here. I’ve seldom heard such a sermon in the Protestant Churches I’ve attended regularly (Methodist, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Baptist and Lutheran). In contrast, I’ve heard thoughtful sermons, some better than others. Not every Protestant preacher is a fundmentalist bible-thumper. Indeed, most are not.

The best teachers I’ve heard have been two PCA pastors whose Churches I attended decades ago, the Episcopal Priest in my old Parish, and the assistant pastor in the Lutheran Church I’m attending now. None of these guys is a pulpit pounder, but all are quite learned, know and love theWord of God and teach it mightily and effectively from the pulpit.

In contrast, the homilies I’ve heard from Catholic priests were, frankly, more often poor than not. Now, I recognize that there must be priests out there who are quite capable and can preach a darn good homily. I just haven’t heard them yet. And I don’t think that my opinion of Catholic homilies is just an isolated unlearned opinion. There seems to be plenty of Catholics who are not satisfied with the general quality of homilies also.

Does this mean the pastors teaching is the focus in a worship service there?

Does this conflict with the thought the bible can interpret itself? Or is it reconcillable?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Let me tell you about our priests: when my wife and I approached them between Masses to inquire about getting her anointed (we were having trouble conceiving), they insisted upon anointing her on the spot. In the Catholic Church, this involves some preparation and takes a good 10-15 minutes, tough to do when there are only 20 minutes till the next Mass. We found out baby number one was on the way shortly thereafter.

So would I prefer a dazzling one-man show in the pulpit or someone who will anoint my wife when she requires it? You keep Pastor Pants-On-Fire, I’ll take my priests any day of the week.

I agree. I also take issue with the overreliance on emotionalism which is often misconstrued as the Holy Spirit. God is found in the quiet moments, in the “whisper of the wind” when we open our hearts to hear him.

*11 The LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by.”
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. 13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.
Then a voice said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?” *
1 Kings 19:11-13

Congratulations on the baby (grown up yet)? Any more?

 

[rr1213]

Now RR, not every response is directed toward you.

They’re not? But I thought I was the center of the universe…

 

[peary]

**Originally Posted by jmcrae **
Actually, John the Baptist was the last prophet.

Yes, but does Judaism believe and hold that John the Baptist WAS the last prophet? I have heard that a lot of Jews don’t believe that. I think this might be because of his tie-in with Jesus. Anybody have other opinions?

 

[rr1213]

Does this mean the pastors teaching is the focus in a worship service there?

Does this conflict with the thought the bible can interpret itself? Or is it reconcillable?

In most Protestant services outside of the most liturgical (i.e., other than the Anglican and some Lutheran), the sermon is most certainly the centerpiece of the Sunday service. I don’t see any conflict whatsoever between this reality and the concept of sola scriptura and, I suspect, neither do Protestant clergy. As it is said in Romans 10: 14 though 17:

"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?..Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

 

[Teflon93]

They’re not? But I thought I was the center of the universe…

LOL—somebody’d better tell Galileo he was wrong!

 

[qui_est_ce]

Ok, there has been about five recent posts in this thread which seem to equate sermons by Protestant clergy as “pulpit pounding” diatribes. Let’s not let the stereotypes prevail here. I’ve seldom heard such a sermon in the Protestant Churches I’ve attended regularly (Methodist, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Baptist and Lutheran). In contrast, I’ve heard thoughtful sermons, some better than others. Not every Protestant preacher is a fundmentalist bible-thumper. Indeed, most are not.

The best teachers I’ve heard have been two PCA pastors whose Churches I attended decades ago, the Episcopal Priest in my old Parish, and the assistant pastor in the Lutheran Church I’m attending now. None of these guys is a pulpit pounder, but all are quite learned, know and love theWord of God and teach it mightily and effectively from the pulpit.

In contrast, the homilies I’ve heard from Catholic priests were, frankly, more often poor than not. Now, I recognize that there must be priests out there who are quite capable and can preach a darn good homily. I just haven’t heard them yet. And I don’t think that my opinion of Catholic homilies is just an isolated unlearned opinion. There seems to be plenty of Catholics who are not satisfied with the general quality of homilies also.

And more saying Catholic priests are poor homilists, therefore poor evangelizers.

Of the three priests in our parish, one a great Preacher, one an academic, and one simple little old holy retired priest. Who is the best? They are all GREAT, but good old Father Ted, rambles on in his homilies and often goes off on a tangent, forgets the point. He is the best of all, because his love of God shines forth in his simple delivery (20 minutes worth)! He always says, “Theologians have pondered these things for thousands of years, and in the end, it’s still a mystery!”

Remember, all Catholic priests have their degrees in Theology. We can help them make good deliveries by showing interest and questioning them. If they see a bunch of sleepy eyes, they are not going to go on much longer.

Support our priests. They could use it. They give up their whole lives for the Church. And then people knock them because they don’t do enough.

 

[Teflon93]

In most Protestant services outside of the most liturgical (i.e., other than the Anglican and some Lutheran), the sermon is most certainly the centerpiece of the Sunday service. I don’t see any conflict whatsoever between this reality and the concept of sola scriptura and, I suspect, neither do Protestant clergy. As it is said in Romans 10: 14 though 17:

"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?..Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

Is there a danger though that in providing exegesis on Scripture the pastor giving the sermon may present an incorrect interpretation?

Let me provide a for-instance: the famous “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” sermon.

Can a sermon ostensibly Scripture-based stray too far from it?

Another example—the Word of Faith movement’s emphasis on passages such as “My word shall not return to me void” to weave the prosperity gospel?

 

[Teflon93]

I agree. I also take issue with the overreliance on emotionalism which is often misconstrued as the Holy Spirit. God is found in the quiet moments, in the “whisper of the wind” when we open our hearts to hear him.

*11 The LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by.”
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. 12 After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. 13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.
Then a voice said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?” *
1 Kings 19:11-13

Congratulations on the baby (grown up yet)? Any more?

Great point—this passage was featured in last Sunday’s Mass, so a timely one as well.

Baby number one is due in March for us. We believe it was the anointing which blessed us, and can’t wait for the baptism so our beloved deacon gets to do his thing.

 

[qui_est_ce]

In most Protestant services outside of the most liturgical (i.e., other than the Anglican and some Lutheran), the sermon is most certainly the centerpiece of the Sunday service. I don’t see any conflict whatsoever between this reality and the concept of sola scriptura and, I suspect, neither do Protestant clergy. As it is said in Romans 10: 14 though 17:

"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?..Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

I agree. But I have a problem with the services outside of liturgy. Our Catholic Church, ELCA, and MOSYNOD all run on a three year cycle of Scripture reading, thus covering a selection from every book in the Bible over a three-year period, for Sunday service along (more if one goes daily).

Some of my Evangelical Fundamentalist friends seem to revolve around favorite Biblical selections of their pastors.

 

[rr1213]

Is there a danger though that in providing exegesis on Scripture the pastor giving the sermon may present an incorrect interpretation?

Let me provide a for-instance: the famous “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” sermon.

Can a sermon ostensibly Scripture-based stray too far from it?

Another example—the Word of Faith movement’s emphasis on passages such as “My word shall not return to me void” to weave the prosperity gospel?

Sure, a Protestant pastor can always “get it wrong” when preaching a sermon. In my opinion, this happens most often when the pastor deviates from the prescribed readings for the day, but it can happen at other times also. Of course, error can also be found in homilies preached by Catholic priests…y’all don’t claim the infallability of individual priests last time I looked. I suppose that, perhaps, mistakes may be less likely in the Catholic setting considering that the Catholic Church is a hiearchial church and the oversight of the Bishop could act as rod to keep things straight…in theory at least.

BTW, I agree that the “prosperity gospel” is garbage.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Great point—this passage was featured in last Sunday’s Mass, so a timely one as well.

Baby number one is due in March for us. We believe it was the anointing which blessed us, and can’t wait for the baptism so our beloved deacon gets to do his thing.

Well, let us know when he/she is born! Keep you in my prayers. Parenthood is when one finally understands the unconditional love of God. I remember looking at my first baby, and realizing this. Here was this little boy that I had not known for five minutes, yet I would die for him. But I couldn’t just yet, because he needed me.

God bless, Tef

 

[rr1213]

I agree. But I have a problem with the services outside of liturgy. Our Catholic Church, ELCA, and MOSYNOD all run on a three year cycle of Scripture reading, thus covering a selection from every book in the Bible over a three-year period, for Sunday service along (more if one goes daily).

Some of my Evangelical Fundamentalist friends seem to revolve around favorite Biblical selections of their pastors.

Agreed.

I do believe though that the Episcopal Church and the Methodist Church use the same, or a very similar, cycle of Scriptures.

 

[Hellisreal]

Thank you rr1213, I certainly was sincerely asking, and hope you understood that.
I see your point, if this scripture is the basis for it.

I guess I just view bible study as a seperate event- yet I dont judge anyone who worships differently than I do. I love everyone, as He loved us all.

In most Protestant services outside of the most liturgical (i.e., other than the Anglican and some Lutheran), the sermon is most certainly the centerpiece of the Sunday service. I don’t see any conflict whatsoever between this reality and the concept of sola scriptura and, I suspect, neither do Protestant clergy. As it is said in Romans 10: 14 though 17:

"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?..Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."

 

[rr1213]

Thank you rr1213, I certainly was sincerely asking, and hope you understood that.
I see your point, if this scripture is the basis for it.

I guess I just view bible study as a seperate event- yet I dont judge anyone who worships differently than I do. I love everyone, as He loved us all.

No problem…and I understand that the centerpiece of the Catholic Mass is the Eucharist.