My #1 reason for not converting...

[qui_est_ce]

Nobody is ordaining Protestant women to the Catholic priesthood.

Exactly. I was responding to a post by parsaary who said Catholics should make peaceful moves to reconciliation.

This is a PRAYER SERVICE, with our Pastor on the Altar. Our Archbishop Burke would not allow this to happen if it were incorrect. Archbshop Burke is known as one of the greatest Canon lawyers today. He is very, very orthodox.

 

[qui_est_ce]

St. Paul tells women to cover their heads in Church.

And even in my time, women always wore hats and veils when coming into Church. They’d cover their heads with a napkin or hanky to fulfill this requirement. It is a sign of respect for them. Even when visiting the Pope, women wear hats.
The Virgin is depicted as wearing a veil cause that is a custom in the Middle East that women have their heads covered.

peace

Ha, Ha, I remember the hankies. Sometimes we pinned on kleenex with bobby pins if we forgot our chapel veils! Some respect!

There is a difference between custom and doctrine. Mary wore a long dress, Jesus wore a tunic.

 

[bobzills]

There is a difference between custom and doctrine.

It is an infallible and unchangeable doctrine of the Catholic Church that women are not allowed ever to be priests. This is not a matter of discipline.
And to go around approving women as ministers in the Protestant Churches cannot help but give the wrong idea that someday this infallible doctrine may be changed. It can never be changed.

 

[ontologysue]

Yes, that!!!

Pretty sad, but ya, so far in my life journey, Protestants as a group are light years ahead of Catholics in terms of their relationship with God. Catholics know about God. Protestants know God. Measured as a group, not by the individual.

I grew up Protestant, then converted to Catholicism after college. The problem I found in the Protestant “relationship” was that it was often based on emotionalism. Additionally, it seldom had an understanding or context for reparational suffering. God seemed to be a big Daddy, who dispensed good things, including material things to the faithful but there were no real answers when healing didn’t occur…and the soul was left to suffer. Because of this I found Catholic theology more profound and intellectually more logical. Miracles and “signs” are not a measure of holiness. Humility and truly sacrificial love would give me more confidence in individuals and churches.

However, I have to say Protestants are much more adept at homilies. Seldom do I hear a really intellectually and spiritually uplifting sermon in a Catholic Church. That’s one reason I really enjoy George Rutler with Church of Our Savior in NY. I wish more of his sermons were podcastible!

 

[mgrfin]

Yes, that!!!

Pretty sad, but ya, so far in my life journey, Protestants as a group are light years ahead of Catholics in terms of their relationship with God. Catholics know about God. Protestants know God. Measured as a group, not by the individual.

I don’t know where these people come from.

You must think we just fell off the hay truck. What a vain, prideful, prejudiced thing to say.

This is something that would be said in the back woods of Tennesee in the 19th Century.

If your statement is reflective of your 'knowledge of God", it is a god I don’t want to know.

Shame on you. You owe an apology to all the Christians who are on this site.

peace

 

[MariaG]

It is an infallible and unchangeable doctrine of the Catholic Church that women are not allowed ever to be priests. This is not a matter of discipline.
And to go around approving women as ministers in the Protestant Churches cannot help but give the wrong idea that someday this infallible doctrine may be changed. It can never be changed.

qui es ce was referring to the discipline of head coverings, not the doctrine of male priests.

God bless,
Maria

 

[peary]

However, I have to say Protestants are much more adept at homilies. Seldom do I hear a really intellectually and spiritually uplifting sermon in a Catholic Church. That’s one reason I really enjoy George Rutler with Church of Our Savior in NY. I wish more of his sermons were podcastible!

Well, don’t forget that Protestant old saying: "When my pastor prays he closes his eyes, and when he preaches he closes mine."

 

[Teflon93]

The Virgin Mother of God is always depicted as wearing a veil or headcovering because she understood this symbol of the different roles given to men and women. Those women who wear the veil are imitating the Virgin Mary in her humility and submissiveness. Nearly every Catholic Church has a stature or image of Mary wearing a veil.
Please see:
catholicplanet.com/women/headcovering.htm
It sends the wrong message on Catholic doctrine to have female Protestant ministers preaching in Catholic Churches. It is an infallible doctrine of the Catholic Church that women are not allowed to be priests. This is not a matter of discipline at all. It is not optional at all. It is an infallible and unchangeable doctrine of the Catholic Church that women can never under any circumstances be ordained to the priesthood, regardless of what Protestants may think about it.

The Virgin Mary lived in the 1st century A.D. in Judea and conformed to the customs and disciplines of the time.

Letting a Lutheran pastor lead a prayer service is not the same thing as ordaining one, nor even recognizing the validity of her holy orders.

As usual, Anti-Catholic Bob is simply claiming to interpret teachings of the Church he either doesn’t understand, or does understand and simply seeks to muddle.

This is because Bob doesn’t understand the difference between dogma, doctrine, and discipline.

Bob has retreated from his initial position regarding women not being allowed to speak in Church because it is not the Catholic tradition. Indeed, Catholics have a LOOOOONG tradition of very outspoken women. St Catherine of Siena is the most prominent of these, being one of the very few Doctors of the Church (my patron saint, Augustine of Hippo, is another). Hard to have such influence while gagged at Mass, isn’t it?

Instead, Bob now tries to make hay out of headcoverings for women, which was actually a common discipline (although, and Bob won’t tell you this, the headcovering did change significantly over time. We can still see these today; look for lacy discs about the size of a saucer.).

These are not required. Neither are they forbidden.

For, unlike whatever community Bob belongs to, in the Catholic Church, we do not hold to the notion that whatever is not required is forbidden, nor that whatever is not forbidden is required.

Anyone who wishes to see the role women play in the Catholic Church may attend Mass (women are always welcome—we don’t send women off to a separate room as some non-Catholics do), or even visit the local Sisters of Mercy (we have a chapter here in Charlotte doing wonderful work with the poor).

If you get your knowledge of the Catholic Church from the Bobs of the world, however, I’m afraid you won’t know a thing about her.

 

[Teflon93]

It is an infallible and unchangeable doctrine of the Catholic Church that women are not allowed ever to be priests. This is not a matter of discipline.
And to go around approving women as ministers in the Protestant Churches cannot help but give the wrong idea that someday this infallible doctrine may be changed. It can never be changed.

Catholics are not quite so stupid as to think that inviting someone to Mass changes doctrine or dogma.

Catholics, having a true spirit of ecumenism, do interact with other faiths. In my own case, our parish ecumenism committee reached out to local Protestant communities to pull together a group to go Christmas caroling amongst our elderly population. It was a smashing success, and has yet to result in any Catholic carolers becoming Methodists or Lutherans or Presbyterians or Pentecostals (I know you’re disappointed).

There will be no female Catholic priests not because doctrine cannot be changed, but because history cannot be changed, and because Scripture cannot be changed (nice try, Martin Luther). Had Christ made Mary Magdalene an apostle, there would be female priests. It’s that simple.

The role of the priest is to administer the sacraments of the Church. Lay people may assist (and they do, particularly at Sunday Mass). There is no scandal in this, it is specifically allowed.

So why try to convince people otherwise, Bob?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Letting a Lutheran pastor lead a prayer service is not the same thing as ordaining one, nor even recognizing the validity of her holy orders.

Actually, our Pastor and she co-led it.

As usual, Anti-Catholic Bob is simply claiming to interpret teachings of the Church he either doesn’t understand, or does understand and simply seeks to muddle.

Now I am totall confused, Bobzils has himself as catholic in his profile. When did he change?

 

[Teflon93]

Actually, our Pastor and she co-led it.
Now I am totall confused, Bobzils has himself as catholic in his profile. When did he change?

He does so to confuse, I believe. One cannot claim to be a member of the catholic church while simultaneously holding that the Catholic Church is not.

 

[DebChris]

Here in Charlotte, Bishop Jugis signed again a mutual understanding with his Lutheran counterparts. They meet frequently, we pray for each other, etc. We actively seek opportunities through our parish ecumenism committee for shared activities.

Little things mean a lot.

Each of us, regardless of denomination, have the same goal in mind. Yes, there are differences but dialogue means to communicate across those differences. Thanks for posting this, Teflon. Bishop Jurgis has shown much leadership in his role as shepard.
When I lived in WI, the LaCrosse diocese under the leadership of Bishop Raymond Burke had annual pulpit exchanges. At no time during these exchanges did any non-Catholic clergy take over the role reserved exclusively for the priests.

Women have been active in the Church right from the very beginning. There were four women in addition to Mother Mary who went about with Jesus where ever He went, and He did not send them home to their knitting. In addition, He interacted and spoke with women right alongside men throughout His time on earth, even though that was not the “done” thing back in those days.

The tradition of women’s religious orders and women participating and helping out in various ways at Church, including as teachers, nurses, secretaries, etc., goes back right to the very beginning of the Church. It’s not some sort of recent “feminist” development.

The parable about using our talents is not limited by gender.

 

[whatevergirl]

It is an infallible and unchangeable doctrine of the Catholic Church that women are not allowed ever to be priests. This is not a matter of discipline.
And to go around approving women as ministers in the Protestant Churches cannot help but give the wrong idea that someday this infallible doctrine may be changed. It can never be changed.

Actually, the interpretation of Scripture is infallible, according to the Church. (interpreted by the Pope) Scripture does not dictate that women should not be ordained, **that is a tradition that is part of our RCC. **So, it does’t call into the infallibity category. However, tradition (customs of the Church) are to be adhered to, and are doctrine. You cannot be in communion with the RCC, if you are a female ‘priest,’ for example.

 

[mgrfin]

Actually, the interpretation of Scripture is infallible, according to the Church. (interpreted by the Pope) Scripture does not dictate that women should not be ordained, **that is a tradition that is part of our RCC. **So, it does’t call into the infallibity category. However, tradition (customs of the Church) are to be adhered to, and are doctrine. You cannot be in communion with the RCC, if you are a female ‘priest,’ for example.

You are saying that women should not be ordained is a ‘tradition’ that is part of our RCC.

I think you are playing loose and fast with the word ‘tradition’. Tradition in the RCC is not some cultural hand-me-down. Tradition is the Unwritten, revealed Word of God. It is that body of doctrine taught to the Apostles by Jesus during the three years of his public ministry. It goes hand-in-hand with Sacred Scripture, the Written, revealed Word of God.

As for ordination of women, yes, it is true that it is forbidden by Canon Law. However, the Pope has said that there is something more than that. It is the intrinsic nature of women that does not allow it. Women won’t ever be allowed to be ordained because of this so-called intrinsic inability.

Peace.

 

[bobzills]

Actually, the interpretation of Scripture is infallible, according to the Church. (interpreted by the Pope) Scripture does not dictate that women should not be ordained, **that is a tradition that is part of our RCC. **So, it does’t call into the infallibity category. However, tradition (customs of the Church) are to be adhered to, and are doctrine. You cannot be in communion with the RCC, if you are a female ‘priest,’ for example.

Please see APOSTOLIC LETTER
ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS
OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION
TO MEN ALONE
at the Vatican website:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”
Regardless of what posters here may claim, the Pope has officially declared that the Church has no authority to ordain women as priests. This is an official and authoritative declaration of the Vicar of Christ and cannot be changed.

 

[jmcrae]

…] the Pope has officially declared that the Church has no authority to ordain women as priests. This is an official and authoritative declaration of the Vicar of Christ and cannot be changed.

Which is exactly why no one need feel threatened when lay women give short talks to groups at Church, or when women and girls are doing any other activities that are open to the laity. The Pope is not going to suddenly start ordaining them by accident. Really, he’s not.

 

[DebChris]

Which is exactly why no one need feel threatened when lay women give short talks to groups at Church, or when women and girls are doing any other activities that are open to the laity. The Pope is not going to suddenly start ordaining them by accident. Really, he’s not.

Besides we have too much other work to do. The Apostles learned the importance of delegation when it interfered with their primary responsibility, the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments.

 

[ontologysue]

Besides we have too much other work to do. The Apostles learned the importance of delegation when it interfered with their primary responsibility, the preaching of the Word and administration of the Sacraments.

“For wisdom is more moving than any motion: she passeth and goeth through all things by reason of her pureness. . . . And p. 458 being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself, she maketh all things new: and in all ages entering into holy souls, she maketh them friends of God, and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom. . . . Wisdom reacheth from one end to another mightily: and sweetly doth she order all things. . . . In that she is conversant with God, she magnifieth her nobility: yea, the Lord of all things himself loved her. For she is privy to the mysteries of the knowledge of God, and a lover of his works.”

Wisdom, “Sophia,” is always female in mystical theology, Our Lady leads the way into contemplation of the “Logos.” “Woman” becomes who she is, when internalizing her vocation.

 

[Teflon93]

Please see APOSTOLIC LETTER
ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS
OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION
TO MEN ALONE
at the Vatican website:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”
Regardless of what posters here may claim, the Pope has officially declared that the Church has no authority to ordain women as priests. This is an official and authoritative declaration of the Vicar of Christ and cannot be changed.

Regardless of Bob’s inability to understand any document produced by the Catholic Church, this is a result of the Church’s view of sacraments.

Sacraments are not items on a menu to be ordered as Bob would have it; they are the pastoral relics of Christ’s ministry. As noted, and as Bob dutifully ignores (I must be making a heckuva case, given how many points Bob’s ignoring in this thread), had Christ ordained women, Catholics would ordain them too. Christ did not. We do not.

Likewise, the Catholic Church will never redefine marriage, as Bob’s community may one day. Matrimony is a sacrament, and the Church has no power to change it.

Catholics will not start baptizing with air freshener, as Bob’s community may one day, because baptism is a sacrament and the Church has no power to change it.

Neither will she anoint the sick with Tel-O-Vangelist’s Healing Grease (just $29.99—as seen on TV!), nor confirm a Bhuddist, nor adopt a Buddy Christ view of the sacrament of penance. She will not transform the Eucharistic wine into grape juice, as Protestants do (Pentecostals et al). She cannot.

In short, the Catholic Church is as Christ made her, and ever will be.

And there will always be those, like Bob, who will prefer anything at all to her.

Since we all will meet her bridegroom at the gates of Heaven one day, we should all give serious consideration to her while we can.

It surely doesn’t pay to call the Bride of Christ the Whore of Babylon, does it?