My #1 reason for not converting...

[scottm]

I hope you can see that it is the Spirit that led me to the Catholic church.

Very much so! The opening Q was what would be a reason to not convert. I gave one.

Protestants seem to look for expressions of the Spirit through the flesh and unknowingly are attaching themselves to a human being who is on fire.

Sometimes yes. But sometimes priests are dead inside. Sometimes Protestants have a genuine fire from God. And sometimes priests do too.

If you can go deeper into the Spirit you will see that every time they ordain another priest it is through touch and Christ is then passed to this priest through the power that Christ gave the apostles. This power to bring Christ into the Eucharist is stronger than any horrible sin a priest may commity because Our Lord will not let a person’s sin prevent us from receiving him in communion.

This is the great strength of the Catholic church. Agreed.

What I noticed is that Scottm stated that communion is not enough. That tells me that you not yet ready to loosen up enough to begin to have the faith of a mustard seed.

No, it’s that I look around at the people who lead both sets of churches, and I see dead people in both. I also see living people in both. Both are in both.

 

[justinthemartyr]

but I see mercy and love unmatched over the ages in the Catholic Church and also see unmatched centuries of preaching, teaching and other evangelization that the protestant church was not on this earth to experience, including the martyrdom of millions in the first 1500 years.

 

[Ronald_E]

I agree there are many dead in our faith but I am not to judge who is and who isn’t. I respond to the unseen Christ in the Eucharist. Another thing that came to me just now through Mother Anjelica on EWTN is that John the Baptist rejoiced in his mother’s womb when Mary visited her with Our Savior in her womb. What a beautiful expression of the Spirit. In the Calvary church there is a call in show that is hosted by an ex-Catholic. I think he married the daughter of the leader of that movement. I hear hostility in his voice at times when he is discussing Catholicism. He states he knows Catholicism because he was a Catholic as a kid. He still knows Catholicism as a child and hasn’t moved from that perspective. When the Holy Spirit pounded my stubborness with miracles there really was no choice I had to become a man and put away childish things. Nobody talked me into anything. I would not have listened to them anyway. I pray you receive a blessing that no human being could ever put in to words. God Bless You on your wonderful quest.

 

[scottm]

In the Calvary church there is a call in show that is hosted by an ex-Catholic. I think he married the daughter of the leader of that movement. I hear hostility in his voice at times when he is discussing Catholicism. He states he knows Catholicism because he was a Catholic as a kid. He still knows Catholicism as a child and hasn’t moved from that perspective.

Is it Raul Reese? He’s an excellent preacher except when he talks about the Catholic Church. He mischaracterizes Catholic teachings to the point of lying. I would say that to his face if I ever met him. (But we know Catholics who mischaracterize Protestant beliefs too.)

justinthemartyr:

and also see unmatched centuries of preaching, teaching and other evangelization that the protestant church was not on this earth to experience

But we don’t live then. We live now, the year 2007. What is the RC Church doing now, in the year 2007? It’s consciously, intentionally, wilfully, purposefully, making a reason for Protestants to exist today, the year 2007, by NOT PREACHING from the ambo/pulpit/whatever. The RC Church could put Protestants out of business in a few years time if it took for itself the sole reason for Protestants to exist today, in the year 2007. Forget historic roots. Nobody is a Lutheran today because of the abuses that occurred in the 1500’s. They are Lutherans today because they get oral instruction at Lutheran churches. Read the history of how Calvary Chapel got started: it was because nobody else, including Catholic priests, were teaching the Bible, and the people were hungry. And they’re still hungry.

The lack of oral instruction from the ambo/pulpit/whatever-you-call-it will always be a sufficient and God-honored reason to not convert to Catholicism.

I’d like to import those St Louis priests to my town.

God Bless You on your wonderful quest.

And you too.

 

[ErikaA]

Since the subject is #1 reason for not converting, I’ll share mine. Catholic arrogance which belies the humility we should all strive for if we are to profess any knowledge of God.

That’s all.

 

[Ronald_E]

To Scottm and Erica please forgive me I do not know how to use a computer effeciently and I hate taking time to learn. The pastor I am thinking of Brian Broderson if the spelling is correct. He is normally on a show called Pastor’s Perspective. And to Erica I also have difficulty with arrogance. I was arrogant when I hated the faith for 40 years. However, this arrogance was a defense against awareness of my sense of not being good enough. What brought me home was Grace in the form of miracles. I have always been extremely sensitive to the attitude of arrogance. In June of this year I wrote a 1300 word e-mail to Barbara McGuigan who is a host one day week for the Catholic radio call in show Open Line. I wrote that I thought she had sinned when she obviously became angry with liberals in her opening remarks and continued with a rant to the caller who had confronted her position. I never received a reply. Basically, I expressed how important it is to not sin in expressing the truth. Light of God is luminous and creates no heat. Lucifer is defined as one who brings light that is hot and is started from friction. I hope you do not let the arrogant prevent you from seeing the tremendous humility in our faith that is of the Spirit and the foundation for our church regardless of what the human beings look and sound like.

 

[Contarini]

Since the subject is #1 reason for not converting, I’ll share mine. Catholic arrogance which belies the humility we should all strive for if we are to profess any knowledge of God.

That’s all.

Do you mean their truth claims? Isn’t that a rather unfair circular argument. I won’t accept their truth claims, because the fact that they make them proves that they are wrong. You’ve ruled out the possibility of a “true religion” from the start, which is fine if you have good theological/philosophical reasons for doing so. But why masquerade your philosophical objection as a moral one? There’s nothing arrogant about saying you are the true religion if you are, any more than it was arrogant for Jesus to say, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” Obviously the Catholic claim is arrogant if wrong (objectively speaking–it needn’t be motivated by arrogance on the part of those making it), but it seems odd and illogical to argue that it must be wrong because it is arrogant.

Edwin

 

[Teflon93]

Since the subject is #1 reason for not converting, I’ll share mine. Catholic arrogance which belies the humility we should all strive for if we are to profess any knowledge of God.

That’s all.

We should all strive to be so humble as to accuse others of arrogance.

It is a curious reason for not converting, however. Paul was not the most humble person, you know.

 

[Teflon93]

Do you mean their truth claims? Isn’t that a rather unfair circular argument. I won’t accept their truth claims, because the fact that they make them proves that they are wrong. You’ve ruled out the possibility of a “true religion” from the start, which is fine if you have good theological/philosophical reasons for doing so. But why masquerade your philosophical objection as a moral one? There’s nothing arrogant about saying you are the true religion if you are, any more than it was arrogant for Jesus to say, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” Obviously the Catholic claim is arrogant if wrong (objectively speaking–it needn’t be motivated by arrogance on the part of those making it), but it seems odd and illogical to argue that it must be wrong because it is arrogant.

Edwin

It sounded more like the complaint that Catholics are arrogant and therefore lack Christian humility rather than Catholic claims of having the fullness of Truth make us arrogant.

The question of wholesale vs. retail arrogance is a good one—wholesale would be a circular argument.

 

[grandfather]

Since the subject is #1 reason for not converting, I’ll share mine. Catholic arrogance which belies the humility we should all strive for if we are to profess any knowledge of God.

That’s all.

I think there are members of any denomination that drive people away from Jesus by arrogance and scandal. The faults of Jesus’
followers keep souls from Jesus. Maybe another topic should be the number one reason for converting. I am sure there are many reasons that converts would give for their decision to be Catholic, the witness of the saints, the sacraments in general, doctrinal agreement, and maybe the major one is the Eucharist. But there is a reason above it all if we examine it.

There is only one valid reason to belong to any religion. The reason is that you believe the teachings of the religion are true. Truth and conversion should come after acceptance that your religion possesses truth revealed by God. The Eucharist either is what it is claimed to be by the Church or it is not. The claims are true or false. If one believes it is true then it demands a response.

Well meaning arrogant proselytes have nothing to do with this. For decades Catholics were leaving the Church. They had no idea what their Church taught and when faced with Protestant challenges they had no answers. This trend has reversed and now many Catholics including new converts are now self professed expert apologists eager to take on all comers. Much of this new enthusiasm can be manifested arrogantly. Arrogance is offensive, but the issue is not this. Truth is.

 

[justinthemartyr]

scottm,

the failure to be catechized by the priest of the church is no reason whatsoever to leave catholicism or to not become catholic. There are many outlets to be catechized within the church, including deacons, Bible studies, and endless amounts of church teachings from every century, unchanged and infallible.

what you are saying is that you would rather have man’s idea of the Truth from private interpretation instead of infallible interpretation from the teachings of the church Christ Himself instituted.

You would rather give up Christ in the Eucharist and let some guy tickle your ears with an easier gospel. This is exaclty what the road to hell is built on, along with sola scriptura.

 

[qui_est_ce]

But we don’t live then. We live now, the year 2007. What is the RC Church doing now, in the year 2007? It’s consciously, intentionally, wilfully, purposefully, making a reason for Protestants to exist today, the year 2007, by NOT PREACHING from the ambo/pulpit/whatever. The lack of oral instruction from the ambo/pulpit/whatever-you-call-it will always be a sufficient and God-honored reason to not convert to Catholicism.

I’d like to import those St Louis priests to my town.

I’m not sure if I mentioned this, but the Archdiocese of St. Louis has a new office of The New Evagelization hectormolina.net/

I have heard Hector twice already, and he is coming to our parish again in about a week. He is a dynamic speaker. We are very, very blessed to have him.

scottm,

the failure to be catechized by the priest of the church is no reason whatsoever to leave catholicism or to not become catholic. There are many outlets to be catechized within the church, including deacons, Bible studies, and endless amounts of church teachings from every century, unchanged and infallible.

Justin.

What about EWTN, this Forum, New Advent.org? We have two Catholic radio stations. I’m hooked on all of it.

Are the above not the ultimate in evangelizing, not only Catholics, but people of other faiths or non faiths, who would not step into a Catholic church (Sola Fides and PCM), yet they are here on this site. I am sure there have been non-Catholics whose journey home began right here on the Forum. What say you Tef, Justin, et al.?

 

[Teflon93]

Are the above not the ultimate in evangelizing, not only Catholics, but people of other faiths or non faiths, who would not step into a Catholic church (Sola Fides and PCM), yet they are here on this site. I am sure there have been non-Catholics whose journey home began right here on the Forum. What say you Tef, Justin, et al.?

All roads lead to Rome.

For my wife and I, our journey began when meeting our wonderful deacon. His example was sufficient for us to begin doing our homework on the Church; after much reading and research and regular Mass attendance our course became clear.

 

[ErikaA]

I guess I should have been more clear. The arrogance is not the Catholic claim to know truth. The arrogance I’m referring to is the same I see among Evangelicals. It’s the, “I’m a sinner but not as much a sinner as she” type thinking that I abhor.

You are right that one should convert or not based solely on the claims of that religion. However, I’m too much of a contrarian for that. I like the idea of a maverick church that refuses to pass any judgments (leaving that to God) but at the same time refuses to tolerate laziness or shameless excuse making. You know, an Ayn Randian Church. (and that was a joke)

As for my own arrogance, I won’t contend it’s not there, for that would be arrogant in and of itself.

 

[jmcrae]

The arrogance I’m referring to is the same I see among Evangelicals. It’s the, “I’m a sinner but not as much a sinner as she” type thinking that I abhor.

You’ll find this sort of thing absolutely everywhere. Even atheists compare each other and decide that “I am more moral than that guy.”

 

[lak611]

I guess I should have been more clear. The arrogance is not the Catholic claim to know truth. The arrogance I’m referring to is the same I see among Evangelicals. It’s the, “I’m a sinner but not as much a sinner as she” type thinking that I abhor.

You are right that one should convert or not based solely on the claims of that religion. However, I’m too much of a contrarian for that. I like the idea of a maverick church that refuses to pass any judgments (leaving that to God) but at the same time refuses to tolerate laziness or shameless excuse making. You know, an Ayn Randian Church. (and that was a joke)

As for my own arrogance, I won’t contend it’s not there, for that would be arrogant in and of itself.

I don’t think you’ll find any Christian church that has those characteristics. Laissez-faire capitalism and egoism are not compatible with any Christian church.

 

[ErikaA]

I don’t think you’ll find any Christian church that has those characteristics. Laissez-faire capitalism and egoism are not compatible with any Christian church.

Or are they and Christians are afraid to admit it? That’s really what I’m saying. But I suppose until I feel convicted by the Holy Spirit that my conscience is skewed, I’ll just continue reading the Church Fathers and engage in non-procreative activities.

 

[LilyM]

I guess I should have been more clear. The arrogance is not the Catholic claim to know truth. The arrogance I’m referring to is the same I see among Evangelicals. It’s the, “I’m a sinner but not as much a sinner as she” type thinking that I abhor.

Of course we’re all sinners, as Catholics we in unison pray the ‘Kyrie’ at every Mass - confessing our sinfulness and praying God for forgiveness, without distinction among persons or sins.

 

[grandfather]

I guess I should have been more clear. The arrogance is not the Catholic claim to know truth.

You are right that one should convert or not based solely on the claims of that religion. However, I’m too much of a contrarian for that. I like the idea of a maverick church that refuses to pass any judgments (leaving that to God) but at the same time refuses to tolerate laziness or shameless excuse making. You know, an Ayn Randian Church. (and that was a joke)

As for my own arrogance, I won’t contend it’s not there, for that would be arrogant in and of itself.

That’s good. It is also good to keep in mind that truth can not be arrogant.

I suppose this maverick attitude means you prefer to remain separated from, outside the Body of Christ, the Church. Jesus did not set up a Church for mavericks. He set up a Church for the sheep of His flock, for sinners who need recognize their need for new life and who are willing to follow and obey Him. Flying solo in the dark is for mavericks not followers. But God bless you in every way. Maybe some day you will hear the invitation and come to the banquet.

 

[mgrfin]

Since the subject is #1 reason for not converting, I’ll share mine. Catholic arrogance which belies the humility we should all strive for if we are to profess any knowledge of God.

That’s all.

I am sure there some Catholics out there who have humility.

I am sure there are some Catholics out there who strive for sainthood.

I am sure there are some Catholics out who have been canonized for their kindness and humility.

I am sure that there are Catholics out there who feel sorrow and pain for the scandal members of our faith have given you.

There must be some Lutherans out there who share the same humanity that you attribute to Catholics (seemingly only).

Peace