My #1 reason for not converting...

[qui_est_ce]

*On 31 October, 1517, the vigil of All Saints’, Luther affixed to the castle church door, which served as the “black-board” of the university, on which all notices of disputations and high academic functions were displayed, his Ninety-five Theses. *

**Contemporary scholars don’t even agree that this was even a legitimate event.

Besides, the Church had been reforming from within for over a hundred years by the time Luther decided to be a theological wannabe. Luther seems to have been the last person to have been aware of it.**

There were still a lot of abuses, especially by the Bishop of Wittenberg who used relics and sales of indulgences to attract tourists so he could raise money for a debt he owed. Many priests had died due to the Black Death, so there were a lot of poorly educated clergy.

I’m not sure where you got the information about the cathedral door not being a blackboard for student messages. That’s what I was always taught.

Luther was an extremely intelligent Theologian. Unfortunately, he also had a huge ego, and decided he could change some theology because he was consumed by scrupulism, and therefore came up with Sola Fide.

My impression is the Church was slow to react to Luther - I believe Trent cconvened in 1545 to define doctrine in light of protestant heresies.

 

[Delraek]

Why do so many Catholics feel the need to condemn certain musical instruments in the Mass? The Mass is obviously beautiful without any music because of the Holy Eucharist, but why does it matter whether it’s an organ, piano, guitar, harp, etc.? As long as the music is reverent and takes nothing away from Jesus, why should it be condemned? I choose to go to the Life Teen Mass at our parish because of the beautiful music - yes, there are guitars and sometimes even drums! But it is very reverent, and that’s what’s important. I’ve never been a fan of Gregorian chant, but if that’s what someone chooses to listen to, great for them! I grew up listening to the old organ hymns, and I can tell you that they do not add anything to “my” worship of Jesus, but maybe other people benefit from this type of music.

Personally, I would rather there be NO music than an off-key cantor singing the Psalms, which can actually undermine the reverence by focusing our attention on the cantor and/or our poor ears!

It’s all about reverence toward Jesus, NOT the instruments that are used! I think most of us would prefer to listen to the music that helps us feel closer to God, IF we have a choice…

 

[mgrfin]

Luther was an extremely intelligent Theologian. Unfortunately, he also had a huge ego, and decided he could change some theology because he was consumed by scrupulism, and therefore came up with Sola Fide.

.

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Who ever claimed that Luther was a 'intelligent theologian". He probably never read much of St. Thomas, and hardly would understand him. As for the other Patristic fathers and great theologians, Martin worked out of a small university, with hardly the library of the great universities of Europe. That he knew much of St. Augustine, the patron of his Order, he might have been versed.

The Church theologians, in his day, to our dismay, had little reason to take him seriously.

peace

 

[Ronald_E]

From years of study and work in the field of psychology and neurobiology we are beginning to understand what the meaning of the flesh is. Luther grew in a time where the family and all social systems were being attacked by the crisis of death through war and plagues. This creates a tremendous amount of trauma in the developing mind of the human being. When someone as sensitive as Luther experiences the suffering and helplessness due to experiences out of his control it awakens him to his own limitations in being able to ease the suffering. What I have observed is that highly sensitive people internalize this suffering and it becomes a source of self hatred. Now if we look at the relationship with his critical father it sheds more light on his breaking away from the Catholic faith. Being very sensitive makes it very difficult to admit having anger with his own father. If this is not brought to the surface it will get acted out with authority figures who would have a demeanor similar to his father. One way to cope with this situation is rebel against the symbolic unloving father. He takes this with him and it draws to him others who have similar psychological dynamics. And so on and so on.

 

[ILUVGSUS2]

You can still be a Catholic and appreciate the faith of your Protestant friends.

Amen to that!

 

[ILUVGSUS2]

Keep reading, especially early church fathers, Irenaeus, Jusin Martyr, Ignatious. Catholic is the fullness of Judaism. Read Rosalind Moss a Jewish convert with great love for Judaism. I just finished reading Honey from the Rock Stories of Jewish converts to CC. Very inspirational.

God bless you on your journey

Also, Rosalind Moss has some wonderful programs on EWTN - Household of Faith, Household of Faith: Now that we’re Catholic and Reasons for Our Hope.

 

[Ronald_E]

Luther did not have a huge ego. He had hatred of authority which was the result of social and family dynamics at a time in history when death was all around him. His rebellion against church authority was the result of his unexplored internalized hatred that would have been repulsive for him as a highly sensitive religious person to accept. It would then be exhibited as extreme self-condemnation that could not be relieved by personal confession unless he knew the source of his self hatred. It is in this “failure” of confession to relieve his pain that he would associate a failure of the priest to relieve his suffering. This “failure” of the priest is then related to the sacrament being a false teaching. It then becomes much easier to have a sense of forgiveness when we are not face to face with the symbol of what we hate. We have to know our hate before we can love. This in essence is what created division.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Luther did not have a huge ego. He had hatred of authority which was the result of social and family dynamics at a time in history when death was all around him. His rebellion against church authority was the result of his unexplored internalized hatred that would have been repulsive for him as a highly sensitive religious person to accept. It would then be exhibited as extreme self-condemnation that could not be relieved by personal confession unless he knew the source of his self hatred. It is in this “failure” of confession to relieve his pain that he would associate a failure of the priest to relieve his suffering. This “failure” of the priest is then related to the sacrament being a false teaching. It then becomes much easier to have a sense of forgiveness when we are not face to face with the symbol of what we hate. We have to know our hate before we can love. This in essence is what created division.

Psychobabble. ML was the only person affected by death and an authoritarian father? Give me a break. He was a monk, well taken care of, and could study to his heart’s delight at Wittenberg. A luxury compared to the hard life in those days. And he had the gall to say, " ‘If any Papist annoys you with the word (alone) tell him straightway: Dr. Martin Luther will have it so: Papist and *** are one and the same thing.’’ (Amic. Discussion, I, 127).

 

[mgrfin]

From years of study and work in the field of psychology and neurobiology we are beginning to understand what the meaning of the flesh is. Luther grew in a time where the family and all social systems were being attacked by the crisis of death through war and plagues. This creates a tremendous amount of trauma in the developing mind of the human being. When someone as sensitive as Luther experiences the suffering and helplessness due to experiences out of his control it awakens him to his own limitations in being able to ease the suffering. What I have observed is that highly sensitive people internalize this suffering and it becomes a source of self hatred. Now if we look at the relationship with his critical father it sheds more light on his breaking away from the Catholic faith. Being very sensitive makes it very difficult to admit having anger with his own father. If this is not brought to the surface it will get acted out with authority figures who would have a demeanor similar to his father. One way to cope with this situation is rebel against the symbolic unloving father. He takes this with him and it draws to him others who have similar psychological dynamics. And so on and so on.

So, what you are saying is that Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler has the same problems?

 

[Teflon93]

Why do so many Catholics feel the need to condemn certain musical instruments in the Mass? The Mass is obviously beautiful without any music because of the Holy Eucharist, but why does it matter whether it’s an organ, piano, guitar, harp, etc.? As long as the music is reverent and takes nothing away from Jesus, why should it be condemned? I choose to go to the Life Teen Mass at our parish because of the beautiful music - yes, there are guitars and sometimes even drums! But it is very reverent, and that’s what’s important. I’ve never been a fan of Gregorian chant, but if that’s what someone chooses to listen to, great for them! I grew up listening to the old organ hymns, and I can tell you that they do not add anything to “my” worship of Jesus, but maybe other people benefit from this type of music.

Personally, I would rather there be NO music than an off-key cantor singing the Psalms, which can actually undermine the reverence by focusing our attention on the cantor and/or our poor ears!

It’s all about reverence toward Jesus, NOT the instruments that are used! I think most of us would prefer to listen to the music that helps us feel closer to God, IF we have a choice…

It is not classical guitar being played though, is it?

Why not ask older parishioners how they feel about it? There opinion ought to count, shouldn’t it?

And if you can create reverence with a kazoo, more power to you.

 

[Delraek]

It is not classical guitar being played though, is it?

Why not ask older parishioners how they feel about it? There opinion ought to count, shouldn’t it?

And if you can create reverence with a kazoo, more power to you.

I would classify the music at our Life Teen Mass as contemporary (Rich Mullens, Chris Tomlin, etc.). There are many “older” parishioners who come to the Life Teen Mass, so I can only assume that they are ok with the music. If not, there are 5 other Masses at my parish for them to attend.

And, by the way, I’m not a fan of classical music so why should I have to listen to it? Also, I am 45 - so not exactly part of the “young” crowd either!

 

[snowfly]

Hi,

When someone professes to “speak in tongue” is it as when the apostles received the gift or is it someone speaking in gibberish
Thanks,
Jea9

Most sensible statment I’ve read in a long time, after witnessing some of this gibberish, I didn’t have a clue what they were babbling on about, while those at Pentecost did.

 

[Teflon93]

From years of study and work in the field of psychology and neurobiology we are beginning to understand what the meaning of the flesh is. Luther grew in a time where the family and all social systems were being attacked by the crisis of death through war and plagues. This creates a tremendous amount of trauma in the developing mind of the human being. When someone as sensitive as Luther experiences the suffering and helplessness due to experiences out of his control it awakens him to his own limitations in being able to ease the suffering. What I have observed is that highly sensitive people internalize this suffering and it becomes a source of self hatred. Now if we look at the relationship with his critical father it sheds more light on his breaking away from the Catholic faith. Being very sensitive makes it very difficult to admit having anger with his own father. If this is not brought to the surface it will get acted out with authority figures who would have a demeanor similar to his father. One way to cope with this situation is rebel against the symbolic unloving father. He takes this with him and it draws to him others who have similar psychological dynamics. And so on and so on.

There is also some considerable evidence that Luther’s father was anything but loving, and was prone to violence.

It’s dangerous to psychoanalyze the dead, of course, but putting one in Luther’s shoes for a moment can yield some sympathy for a man prone to impetuosity, to scrupulousness, to anger.

 

[Teflon93]

I would classify the music at our Life Teen Mass as contemporary (Rich Mullens, Chris Tomlin, etc.). There are many “older” parishioners who come to the Life Teen Mass, so I can only assume that they are ok with the music. If not, there are 5 other Masses at my parish for them to attend.

And, by the way, I’m not a fan of classical music so why should I have to listen to it? Also, I am 45 - so not exactly part of the “young” crowd either!

Classical music is not a requirement, but what is interesting is the “why should I have to” piece. Certain things are simply inappropriate in the presence of the Lord. I do not show up to Mass in my boxers. I do not play a kazoo during the Gloria. I do not run up to the tabernacle and say “Good morning, Jesus!” at the start of Mass.

Why should I have to refrain from such things?

 

[Ronald_E]

I do not yet know how to respond to individual quotes. I think it was Christine who called my post psychobabble. You see that is the response that indicates hostility and cutting off the conversation from any depth. When they talk about the flesh in the bible it is the brain that is being discussed. I returned to our faith 40 years after leaving it and hating it because I did not feel the love in our faith when I was young. There appeared to be harsh judgement and rigidity instead of the love I know exists presently. I developed a narcissistic attitude against our faith because I did not want to believe I was a bad person. I came from coal mining families and as I see now God led me in to the study of psychology to show me how to understand how this beautiful creation of our minds can be used to divide us from each other and also internally from our true creation. If you do not want to look at the internal dynamics of human relationships and understand how this affects our faith then you are operating on your own preconditioned responses just as Luther did. Hostility that is not understood and resolved through forgiveness and love with Christ is what divided our faith and caused the death of countless millions of lives.

 

[Ronald_E]

Our basic sense of self as human beings is primarily formed before we have an awareness of self by the safe or unsafe sense of attachment to our primary caregiver. If our mother is not in a physically or emotionally safe relationship with our father our need for a safe attachment is unmet. Attachment forms in the lymbic area of the brain which we share in common with other mammals. It does not think it only reacts. As humans we have the capacity to identify and name these reactions which we call feelings. We then form beliefs about self and others based on these very primitive and powerful responses. When talking with non catholics it is important to remember that we are relating to feelings that give the person their identity and form the foundation of their beliefs.

 

[peary]

It is not classical guitar being played though, is it?

Why not ask older parishioners how they feel about it? There opinion ought to count, shouldn’t it?

And if you can create reverence with a kazoo, more power to you.

Scientific experiments point to the fact that certain musical instruments and even certain music has an affect on the individual’s brain and body functions that help induce an attitude that makes prayer more meaningful. Music which quiets the mind and helps one enter the reality of worship is something that church composers in the past understood. Certain music and certain instruments can close off this pensive approach, disrupting the mind and body to such an extent that it closes off these moods, thereby turning one’s self inward toward narcissism.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I do not yet know how to respond to individual quotes. I think it was Christine who called my post psychobabble. You see that is the response that indicates hostility and cutting off the conversation from any depth.

You hit the “quote” button, then you type / quote ] (added spaces so it wouldn’t quote), then you copy and paste the original poster

xxxxx:

into the text to further quote. keep adding /quote ] where you want to insert you responses.

If you have read ANY of my posts on this Forum, you will see I am not a judgement hostile person (except to Sola Fida)

I just don’t believe in excuses. They way ML was raised was probably not a lot different than most in that day and age.

Recently a young man here in St. Louis shot a police officer, father of three, three times for NO REASON. When the police car rolled down the hill and slammed into another car, the officer tried to get out, was on hands and knees, and was shot three more times in the back of the head, killing him. The defense excuse was the defendant’s little brother died a few hours earlier of a congential heart defect while doing drug errands for the defendant and the police didn’t do enough to help. (Police are not allowed to carry injured victims in patrol cars, they have to call an ambulance, due to being sued for transporting an injured victim in a patrol car when they could have called an ambulance). The trial ended in a mistrial, because the poor guy (defendant) was traumatized because of the death of his little brother. What kind of a message is that? It’s ok to go around killing people because you are upset about a death? (luckily in the subsequent trial he got 1st degree and sentenced to death)

My dad, Lutheran MO Synod strict Lutheran, was murdered in a similar fashion when I was 19. They beat my mother, broke her jaw in three places, strangled her and left her for dead. The murders got manslaughter, even though they killed him while commiting an ARMED burglary of our home. I don’t believe in the death penalty, and it wouldn’t have brought closure to me. When I read about their life styles in the police report, in and out of prison, drifters, nomads, fathered children all over the place, I felt sick. I couldn’t help but think they were “humans” with no souls. Maybe they sold their souls to the Devil. There was no reason for any of this violence, my dad would have given them anything. I know my dad is in Heaven watching out for me, he visits me in dreams. I’m glad he died instantly and didn’t have to suffer. But my children are deprived of a loving grandfather.

Whew, that was really off topic

The point is Luther has no excuse to go on a rant and call the Pope a whore. This isn’t just an individual Pope or priest, he is the father of Protestantism. Billions of people in the world follow him. He was an arrogant individual who should have known better. He had a loving marriage and children. We may be the product of our upbringing, but we still have Free Will.

 

[Teflon93]

Luther’s background certainly doesn’t excuse his various sins; neither does our background excuse ours. Sin is freely chosen.

As to the type of sins we commit, it may offer some insight, however.

And since the heresiarchs were known for lack of charity and for disobedience, any common factors in their backgrounds which explain these character flaws may be of interest, not to excuse, but to comprehend.

I am not a greedy person. It is therefore hard for me to understand the moneygrubbers. Knowledge of formative events in the lives of the fabulously greedy helps me to comprehend them a little better, as well as to recognize the signs of such greed in the people around me.

When they face God in judgment, they will surely be called to account for their greed, as I will be called to account for my sins. From Scripture I get the distinct impression that God does not take excuses at face value.

 

[Ronald_E]

Christine, The evil murdered your loved ones and denied your children the gift of their love is beyond my understanding. I hope you do not interpret my words as excuses for Luther’s actions. What I am saying is that if we do not understand how evil uses our most hidden and ugly feelings then we have more of a possibilty to act out in a self-righteous way that creates division in the way Luther chose to act because he did not have full awareness of how his rage was being used to harm the church.