My #1 reason for not converting...

[qui_est_ce]

Christine, The evil murdered your loved ones and denied your children the gift of their love is beyond my understanding. I hope you do not interpret my words as excuses for Luther’s actions. What I am saying is that if we do not understand how evil uses our most hidden and ugly feelings then we have more of a possibilty to act out in a self-righteous way that creates division in the way Luther chose to act because he did not have full awareness of how his rage was being used to harm the church.

Thank you for answering. The task of evil is beyond my capacity to respond tonight, Evil is real, Evil permeates the culture of “tolerance” and “diversity” Something quite apart from love of neighbor.

 

[Delraek]

Classical music is not a requirement, but what is interesting is the “why should I have to” piece. Certain things are simply inappropriate in the presence of the Lord. I do not show up to Mass in my boxers. I do not play a kazoo during the Gloria. I do not run up to the tabernacle and say “Good morning, Jesus!” at the start of Mass.

Why should I have to refrain from such things?

My question of “why should I have to listen to it?” was in response to your question: “Why not ask older parishioners how they feel about it? There opinion ought to count, shouldn’t it?” You made it sound that the older parishioners “feelings” are more important than anyone else’s including mine.

I really don’t believe your silly statements above are at all reverent during Mass and I did make it very clear in my previous posts that reverence is mandatory. Please go back and read them again for clarification. (Or better yet, just admit that your all-inclusive condemnation of playing guitars in Mass was wrong. It just depends on whether or not the music is done reverently. )

 

[Teflon93]

My question of “why should I have to listen to it?” was in response to your question: “Why not ask older parishioners how they feel about it? There opinion ought to count, shouldn’t it?” You made it sound that the older parishioners “feelings” are more important than anyone else’s including mine.

I really don’t believe your silly statements above are at all reverent during Mass and I did make it very clear in my previous posts that reverence is mandatory. Please go back and read them again for clarification. (Or better yet, just admit that your all-inclusive condemnation of playing guitars in Mass was wrong. It just depends on whether or not the music is done reverently. )

The whole point is the guitars aren’t ever used reverently, which is what my comment about classical guitar referred to if you’d care to reread it.

My point about the kazoo rather strongly refutes your notion that it’s the music, not the instrument, which hurts reverence. There is no way to play kazoo reverently; try “Ave Maria” on it.

Folk and rock simply are not reverent forms. Neither is rap. Those who try to shoehorn such things into liturgy are more interested in the musical style than in worship.

It’s not a function of age, either. I happen to be some years younger than you are.

I believe it to be a function of irreverence, possibly because Baby Boomers as a whole tend to disdain reverence.

And yes, outside of Mass I do enjoy plenty of guitar-based music, especially blues, rock, and even a bit of folk.

Mass not being about my musical preferences, however, I leave them at the sanctuary door.

How nice it would be if those who insist upon the captive audience of the faithful to play their favored instrument would do the same, if only out of respect for older parishioners for whom it tends to ruin the reverence of worship, if not for Christ himself.

When I face Christ at the end, I rather doubt I’ll hear, “Great riff, thou good and faithful servant—Rock on!”

I cannot imagine power chording away in the presence of the Lord.

Some of course can—but they are wrong.

 

[DebChris]

It has been awhile since I attended a Mass using guitar as a musical instrument. I do however remember them being played in the style of John Michael Talbot whom I find very meditative and reverent.
I have been to Mass that used trumpets. The first time was a wedding in which the trumpet was used in the entrance him. I have heard *Amazing Grace *on the clarinet. In the parish to which I belong the most common instruments used are violin and clarinet. It is a small church and does not have the instrumentation or choral development of the local Episcopal church. As scripture says, “Make a joyful noise unto the Lord.”

 

[lak611]

“Silent Night” was written on the guitar. The organ in the church may have been broken, according to some accounts, or else they just wanted a song for the guitar. From Wikipedia:

The carol was first performed in the Nicola-Kirche (Church of St. Nicholas) in Oberndorf, Austria on December 24, 1818. Mohr had composed the words much earlier, in 1816, but on Christmas Eve brought them to Gruber and asked him to compose a melody and guitar accompaniment for the church service.

In his written account regarding the composition of the carol, Gruber gives no mention of the specific inspiration for creating the song. According to the song’s history provided by Austria’s Silent Night Society, one supposition is that the church organ was no longer working so that Mohr and Gruber therefore created a song for accompaniment by guitar. Silent Night historian, Renate Ebeling-Winkler says that the first mention of a broken organ was in a book published in the U.S. in 1909.

 

[ILUVGSUS2]

My father plays guitar. He teaches classic guitar at a local university. He taught me to have an appreciation for various types of music. I love hearing guitar at mass. Since I converted to Catholicism, he has been invited to play at different churches for mass and he isn’t Catholic. the parishes he was invited to play were not ones I attend.

 

[lak611]

My father plays guitar. He teaches classic guitar at a local university. He taught me to have an appreciation for various types of music. I love hearing guitar at mass. Since I converted to Catholicism, he has been invited to play at different churches for mass and he isn’t Catholic.

I am not really fond of guitar for Mass if it is the folk/rock style that is used in many parishes. I would like to hear classical guitar, and “Silent Night” is one of my favourite Christmas songs.

 

[ILUVGSUS2]

I am not really fond of guitar for Mass if it is the folk/rock style that is used in many parishes. I would like to hear classical guitar, and “Silent Night” is one of my favourite Christmas songs.

God made us all unique and he knows what’s in our heart regardless of the style of music we prefer. I’m confident He is happy to be praised whether it’s with classical music or rock as long as it is coming from our heart.

 

[Ronald_E]

At this point I am not certain what the #1 reason for not converting is. If we are talking about the structure of the mass and or service as the #1 reason then I think it is a diversion from the real issue of not converting. In C S Lewis’ The Screwtape Letters he masterfully identifies how satan who is a master of deception uses these superfluous differences to create conflict at a level that prevents us from exploring the true nature of division.

 

[DebChris]

At this point I am not certain what the #1 reason for not converting is. If we are talking about the structure of the mass and or service as the #1 reason then I think it is a diversion from the real issue of not converting. In C S Lewis’ The Screwtape Letters he masterfully identifies how satan who is a master of deception uses these superfluous differences to create conflict at a level that prevents us from exploring the true nature of division.

I also remember a statement made at a conference I attended, “Strife is a luxury that Christians cannot afford.” Scripture itself warns against quibbling.

 

[grandfather]

I am not really fond of guitar for Mass if it is the folk/rock style that is used in many parishes. I would like to hear classical guitar, and “Silent Night” is one of my favourite Christmas songs.

Before it is possible to understand what type of music or singing should be used to accompany worship, it is necessary to understand what worship is. What are we doing there? Stop thinking about what kind of music we enjoy hearing or not. That is irrelevant, We are not there to be entertained although some have come to think we are. We are singing to God not ourselves.

What is supposed to be happening at Catholic worship? The Mass is a sacrifice. We are offering to God a victim who gave Himself in atonement for our sins. We are offering God who became one of us to God. The understanding of the Mass has been changed with the new Mass. Whether or not that is good is debated hotly, but with the old Mass the understanding that we were offering Jesus as a victim of sacrifice was expressed verbally in the prayers and that has been removed, changing the understanding of the Mass. The other things that has been replaced are the hymns that expressed this understanding. Now the Mass is more focused on other things and we see music or new hymns that are good toe tappers and make us feel good.

In addition to offering a sacrificial victim, the Mass is an expression of our love for God who gave Himself for us. In that sense the music should be like love songs. There are some classic love/worship compositions that Christians including saints have been inspired to compose over the centuries and that many generations were awed by that are now virtually lost. Pange Lingua and Panis Angelicus are a couple of examples. Find them on the net and read the words and try to sing them if you can read the music. They have been pushed out of the way to make room for the strummers.

My parish is eastern Catholic. There are no instruments. The hymns are all ancient. I attended a Latin rite Mass recently celebrated by a priest I know visiting from another country. It is fairly rare that I attend a Latin rite Mass, so the contrast is apparent. It is not something that I am used to. At one time in my life I had not seen television for several years. When I did see it again I was shocked by it. Those who watched it every day did not see what I saw. This is not meant to be a my style is better than yours comment. The parish I visited had a practiced choir with a leader who is musically trained and has dedicated all of her life to music. The piano was used in some of the songs, the organ in others. There were very complicated harmonies sung by the choir. The people sang along trying to fit in or keep up for the most part. What seemed apparent to me is that this was an exercise in demonstrating musical proficiency, more than singing a love song to the Divine Person who saves us and loves us. It did not seem like worship to me, but clatter.

I am considered to be a baby boomer, an early one. When I was young the priest in a rural small Roman parish where I lived asked me to help the parish with music. I played the guitar and complied and did my best. A few parishioners joined the choir and we got the congregation to sing. I think what we did was an improvement over what was really bad. Looking back I would say it was an improvment, but still much less than what ought to be. We want to do our best when we worship God. Again, before we can offer our best we have to know and understand what worship is.

.

 

[MariaG]

What is supposed to be happening at Catholic worship? The Mass is a sacrifice. We are offering to God a victim who gave Himself in atonement for our sins. We are offering God who became one of us to God. The understanding of the Mass has been changed with the new Mass.

Could you please cite for me where the basic that Mass is a Sacrifice, etc, has changed with the “new” Mass?

 

[Delraek]

The whole point is the guitars aren’t ever used reverently, which is what my comment about classical guitar referred to if you’d care to reread it.

My point about the kazoo rather strongly refutes your notion that it’s the music, not the instrument, which hurts reverence. There is no way to play kazoo reverently; try “Ave Maria” on it.

Folk and rock simply are not reverent forms. Neither is rap. Those who try to shoehorn such things into liturgy are more interested in the musical style than in worship.

It’s not a function of age, either. I happen to be some years younger than you are.

I believe it to be a function of irreverence, possibly because Baby Boomers as a whole tend to disdain reverence.

And yes, outside of Mass I do enjoy plenty of guitar-based music, especially blues, rock, and even a bit of folk.

Mass not being about my musical preferences, however, I leave them at the sanctuary door.

How nice it would be if those who insist upon the captive audience of the faithful to play their favored instrument would do the same, if only out of respect for older parishioners for whom it tends to ruin the reverence of worship, if not for Christ himself.

When I face Christ at the end, I rather doubt I’ll hear, “Great riff, thou good and faithful servant—Rock on!”

I cannot imagine power chording away in the presence of the Lord.

Some of course can—but they are wrong.

Well, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. Whether it’s a guitar or an organ, it can be used reverently or irreverently. Your comment regarding a guitar riff is very sarcastic and not even accurate. I specifically told you that the music played at the Mass I go to is contemporary Christian, not “hard rock” nor “heavy metal”! I’m assuming you just don’t like it when people don’t agree with you.

If and until the Magisterium guided by the Holy Spirit agrees with you, I will defend my opinion. (I won’t be holding my breath.)

Just out of curiosity, please list which instruments in your opinion ARE acceptable.

 

[grandfather]

Could you please cite for me where the basic that Mass is a Sacrifice, etc, has changed with the “new” Mass?

It has not changed in the sense that the doctrinal teaching is the same. What we do in practice has changed and the words of the prayers have changed to where there is less focus on the sacrificial aspect of the Mass. The only reference I can offer is for you to read, side by side, the ordinary of the Masses, old and new and see if one seems to you to give more emphasis than the other on the sacrfice being made.

 

[MariaG]

It has not changed in the sense that the doctrinal teaching is the same. What we do in practice has changed and the words of the prayers have changed to where there is less focus on the sacrificial aspect of the Mass. The only reference I can offer is for you to read, side by side, the ordinary of the Masses, old and new and see if one seems to you to give more emphasis than the other on the sacrfice being made.

Respectfully, less emphasis does not equal “changing the understanding of Mass”. There is a big difference between your original contention that the understanding of the Mass has been changed and your current words of a “greater emphasis”. Note, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with your contention of a “greater emphasis”, but disagreeing with your original contention that the understanding of the Mass has been changed.

What is supposed to be happening at Catholic worship? The Mass is a sacrifice. We are offering to God a victim who gave Himself in atonement for our sins. We are offering God who became one of us to God. The understanding of the Mass has been changed with the new Mass. Whether or not that is good is debated hotly, but with the old Mass the understanding that we were offering Jesus as a victim of sacrifice was expressed verbally in the prayers and that has been removed, changing the understanding of the Mass.

 

[kingrichard]

This reply does not require a reply. The religion and the religious people you cite are indeed catholic and are a part of the Christianity the Church has promulgated for over 2000 years. They only lack the fullness of the truth which can only be found in the Church founded by Jesus Christ. As I reflect on the growing number of converts I as a cradle Catholic marvel at the spirit they bring as they embrace the sacraments and Tradition of the Church.

 

[ILUVGSUS2]

This reply does not require a reply. The religion and the religious people you cite are indeed catholic and are a part of the Christianity the Church has promulgated for over 2000 years. They only lack the fullness of the truth which can only be found in the Church founded by Jesus Christ. As I reflect on the growing number of converts I as a cradle Catholic marvel at the spirit they bring as they embrace the sacraments and Tradition of the Church.

I totally agree!!!

 

[grandfather]

Respectfully, less emphasis does not equal “changing the understanding of Mass”. There is a big difference between your original contention that the understanding of the Mass has been changed and your current words of a “greater emphasis”. Note, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with your contention of a “greater emphasis”, but disagreeing with your original contention that the understanding of the Mass has been changed.

Maybe I should clarify what I meant by understanding of the Mass. I meant the understanding prople take away from assisting at Mass. In fact I am certain that Catholics think of the Mass differently now than they used to. I was there. I remember. Let me give you an example. After Mass people used to silently leave the Church and many stayed to pray and reflect on the holy mysteries they witnessed. The Church was always silent in respect for people who migh come to pray and being in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. Today immediately after Mass there is an uproar. If someone tries to stay and pray they are disregarded by the party going on. There has been a fundamental shift in attitude. This is only one example of it.

 

[Delraek]

Maybe I should clarify what I meant by understanding of the Mass. I meant the understanding prople take away from assisting at Mass. In fact I am certain that Catholics think of the Mass differently now than they used to. I was there. I remember. Let me give you an example. After Mass people used to silently leave the Church and many stayed to pray and reflect on the holy mysteries they witnessed. The Church was always silent in respect for people who migh come to pray and being in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. Today immediately after Mass there is an uproar. If someone tries to stay and pray they are disregarded by the party going on. There has been a fundamental shift in attitude. This is only one example of it.

I agree that this is a problem. The good news is that things seem to be changing for the better. Maybe in another 20-30 years, along with all the really good priests currently being formed in the seminaries, the reverence for the Blessed Sacrament will have returned in full force!

 

[grandfather]

I agree that this is a problem. The good news is that things seem to be changing for the better. Maybe in another 20-30 years, along with all the really good priests currently being formed in the seminaries, the reverence for the Blessed Sacrament will have returned in full force!

By God’s grace.