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Langdell
Guest
Surly,
It’s been quite a while since I read that book, but doesn’t he take the position that evil exists because God is not omnipotent? I remember thinking it was rather unorthodox.
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It’s been quite a while since I read that book, but doesn’t he take the position that evil exists because God is not omnipotent? I remember thinking it was rather unorthodox.
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paul11b
Guest
Fr. Corapi said that God allows evil to bring a greater good out of it. We may not see the greater good but I assure that it is there. St. Padre Pio said we are like little children, sitting on the ground with our mother sitting up higher in her chair embroiding, and we look up from our perspective and say “mom what are you making that is so ugly?” And our mom picks us up and brings us to her level and we see the embroidery from her perspective and then we say “wow mom that is beautiful.” (We are the little kid, God is the mother, and sin and evilness is like the embroidery).
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oneofmany
Guest
I think some atheists want a perfect world handed to them on a silver platter. Life isn’t that way and never will be.
I told one atheist that there is a worse thing than death and that is eternal damnation. She said, “that is too cruel, your God is mean. I won’t believe in Him.”
I guess she can’t take it when someone says you can get a horrible disease someday like cancer or the thousands of other bad things that can happen to us in this life.
I don’t know what to say after that. Some people stop believing when terrible things happen and some people start believing when terrible things happen. Some find solace in difficulty and some find it reason to blame someone, even God.
I know of one famous atheist who stopped believing in God when his mother suffered so much with cancer before she died. He said no God could allow that. He totally forgets his mother most likely went straight to heaven after so much suffering. He only believes in what he can see and doesn’t allow anything that he can’t see to exist.
Plus, I think some need something or someone to blame when bad things happen. I think some atheists really need God to blame when bad things happen. That puts them between a rock and a hard place. It’s quite a quandary to be in.
I told one atheist that there is a worse thing than death and that is eternal damnation. She said, “that is too cruel, your God is mean. I won’t believe in Him.”
I guess she can’t take it when someone says you can get a horrible disease someday like cancer or the thousands of other bad things that can happen to us in this life.
I don’t know what to say after that. Some people stop believing when terrible things happen and some people start believing when terrible things happen. Some find solace in difficulty and some find it reason to blame someone, even God.
I know of one famous atheist who stopped believing in God when his mother suffered so much with cancer before she died. He said no God could allow that. He totally forgets his mother most likely went straight to heaven after so much suffering. He only believes in what he can see and doesn’t allow anything that he can’t see to exist.
Plus, I think some need something or someone to blame when bad things happen. I think some atheists really need God to blame when bad things happen. That puts them between a rock and a hard place. It’s quite a quandary to be in.
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Whadyamean
Guest
That’s wonderful. When disasters happen, or personal tragedies, or someone i horribly abused, we can say “Thank God.” Truly all these horrors and such we witness are gifts from God and we should give thanks for tsunamis, floods, mass starvation, and all the ills of the world. There are further logical extensions of this, but this is a good start. I just don’t understand why when I see the news with friends and family and see the atrocities on there, and I exclaim “Thank God,” why they are so upset.
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Anthony_V
Guest
If God were to disallow tragedies to happen, we wouldn’t bother to return to him from our sinful nature. “This is what sin does, and it is bad.” We would be hopeless and confused creatures largely incapable of seeking him due to our handicapped wills.
The early christians were unafraid of torture and Emperor Nero, if that says anything.
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ASimon
Guest
For the record, I don’t ask that we live in a perfect world. I would just prefer not to be told, after something goes horribly wrong, that God is Love, or that God is Merciful. Or that God is Mysterious, as though that ever stopped people from pretending to know what God wanted in the past.
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Anthony_V
Guest
Perhaps it will be consoling to know that this is a stepping stone into Christianity, and throughout everyone’s faith walk. I’ve had my share of “God, this is all your fault”. But this falls under the same realm of how discoveries in science are ascertained. We just don’t fully know yet. For the same reasons you have no problem knowing the cure for cancer (or whatever brilliant questions might be flowing through your head), so I have no problem in knowing the exact reason God allows pain. It’s a matter of faith; and a faith I would daresay we have in common. If pain was some concrete wall that one could not punch through, then God would be nothing short of illogical. But it is not! This is the foundation of Faith, Hope and Charity. A rose itself is no less beautiful despite its thorns! This is why we live in communities, and often have families. A matter of perspective is nothing of yours that I can change, but an understanding that all hope in God is not lost from the get-go is perhaps something I might could offer you.
Peace and Love,
Anthony
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Spirithound
Guest
The multiple possible worlds hypothesis is nonsensical. If Spirithound A, who exists in World A, is a sinner, and Spirithound B, who exists in World B, never sins, then there are two possible explanations.
As background, I make two assumptions. First, that the choices we make are made for particular reasons, and second, we are comparing identical situations, save for the one variable factor.
So, the first possible explanation is that these two Spirithounds are actually different people. Therefore, someone is being deprived of existence, and as a Catholic, I hold it axiomatically that existence is better than non-existence. Therefore, neither World A nor World B are the ideal worlds.
The second is that God has impeded the free will of Spirithound A, and therefore Spirithound A is not human.
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Whadyamean
Guest
So what you are saying, then, is that tragedies are God’s greatest gift because they turn us back to “Him.”If God were to disallow tragedies to happen, we wouldn’t bother to return to him from our sinful nature. “This is what sin does, and it is bad.” We would be hopeless and confused creatures largely incapable of seeking him due to our handicapped wills.
The early christians were unafraid of torture and Emperor Nero, if that says anything.
It seems Mother Theresa agrees with me. She allegedly said “suffering is God kissing you.”
So when we see tragedy, suffering, pain, etc, we ought to say “Thank God.” No?
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oneofmany
Guest
Why would anyone say, “Thank God” when atrocities happen? One would say, “Please help me/us God to endure this and be with us to get through it” Then when we are through it we say, “Thank you God for your help. Thank you God for sending so many good people to help us,” etc. etc, etc.
I am saying nothing is going to be perfect, not in this life. I don’t know why some need to blame God when bad things happen. God does not want bad things to happen to us and He will be there to help us when they do happen.
Natural disasters happen in this world. Some people are in the way of natural tragedies, that is just a fact of how our earth works. Some atrocities occur when leaders are evil and innocent people are caught in their evil plans. That is not God’s plan.
I guess you don’t know anyone who after going through a bad time say, “I sure am glad I came out of that but I am thankful I went through it since I learned so much or I met so many wonderful people I would not have known if it didn’t happen.”
Maybe some only look at the bad side of life and not the good that comes from bad.
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GuanYuWarGod
Guest
I don’t mean suddenly in temporal way. (I cant think of a better word.) But bringing up suicide rates says absolutely NOTHING on the OP’s question: “Why God would allow babies to suffer and die?” It’s a big red herring. Besides it was you who said :Guan
There is no reason why a non belief in God will suddenly cause someone to kill him/herself anymore than a non belief in Zeus, Poseidon, Cheshwan, Anubis, etc.
Who said anything about “suddenly.” Suicide generally take a while to accomplish, sometimes years depending on the method ultimately chosen.
adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html
At any rate, do you as a “Catholic” believe that atheists have more of a lust for life than Catholics, which was ASimon’s view. If you do, you are no Catholic.
Even if this is a thread on :“Does God exist?” bringing up suicide rates tells you absolutely nothing on whether God exists or not and Catholics (and every other Abrahamic religion) have the extra burden of proof of proving that in addition to God existing, they must prove as well that the entire picture of the Catholic faith is 100% true and 100% error free: Jesus is God, the Bible is infallible and it is 100% true with no error, Jesus exists, the Catholic Church contains the truth to salvation, etc.
Suicide rates say nothing on someone’s position on an issue of faith and do nothing at all in *proving the truth value *of your own religion. Even if the atheist suicide rate reached the moon it will NOT prove any of the beliefs of Catholicism, Protestsants, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Presbytarians, Baptists, 7th day Adventists, etc.
Why don’t you define “lust for life”?
… and on another note I have no idea why you are throwing this question at me. All i said was that your argument has nothing to do with anything relevant. Red herring posts are off topic posts and almost always start threads here that go in circles and use up site bandwidth.
meltzerboy
New member
You are correct. Rabbi Kushner (a Conservative Rabbi: “midway” between Orthodox and Reform) takes the position that either G-d is not benevolent or He is not omnipotent, and chooses the latter. This is contrary to Jewish teaching and has been criticized. He does not entitle the book “Why Bad Things Happen to Good People” because he does not have an explanation for that. The book was written due to the death of his young son, who was his first child, from progeria, which is a disease involving the premature aging of children.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Guan
**Suicide rates say nothing on someone’s position on an issue of faith and do nothing at all in proving the truth value of your own religion. Even if the atheist suicide rate reached the moon it will NOT prove any of the beliefs of Catholicism, Protestsants, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Presbytarians, Baptists, 7th day Adventists, etc. **
Some common sense is required here.
Do people who commit suicide have a lust for life? No. If you don’t know what "lust for life means, I assume the word you are having trouble with is “lust.” It means craving desire. Do you have an English dictionary?
Do people who do not commit suicide have a lust for life? Apparently.
It is the assertion of atheism that atheism makes people happier. Not so, according to the suicide statistics. If the statistics are wrong, say so. You can’t. So now you have to wriggle your way out of your position by changing the subject to proving the existence of God, to proving the Catholic faith and the Bible are infallible, etc.
The subject of this thread, atheism, by the way, has been banned. Sooner or later a moderator will close it on that ground alone.
**Suicide rates say nothing on someone’s position on an issue of faith and do nothing at all in proving the truth value of your own religion. Even if the atheist suicide rate reached the moon it will NOT prove any of the beliefs of Catholicism, Protestsants, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Presbytarians, Baptists, 7th day Adventists, etc. **
Some common sense is required here.
Do people who commit suicide have a lust for life? No. If you don’t know what "lust for life means, I assume the word you are having trouble with is “lust.” It means craving desire. Do you have an English dictionary?
Do people who do not commit suicide have a lust for life? Apparently.
It is the assertion of atheism that atheism makes people happier. Not so, according to the suicide statistics. If the statistics are wrong, say so. You can’t. So now you have to wriggle your way out of your position by changing the subject to proving the existence of God, to proving the Catholic faith and the Bible are infallible, etc.
The subject of this thread, atheism, by the way, has been banned. Sooner or later a moderator will close it on that ground alone.
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Anthony_V
Guest
Yes! I was trying to enforce your answer. Sorry if it didn’t seem that way
This realm of thinking reminds me a lot of Dark Night of the Soul!
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Whadyamean
Guest
A very large part of the dark night of the soul, as I found out, is ignorance. It is, in fact, why I am no longer a practicing Catholic, though I am still associated with the Church in a roundabout way. My discovery was, after a period of agonizing and research through clerics and books, that there are explanations, guidance, paradigms and short cuts the Church neither uses nor acknowledges. Something has been lost, I would say, between Jesus and the present day. It caused me great grief and sadness that I found this to be the case. Had the Church some of these protocols in place, I would have not only stayed, but would have been saved years of disturbance and searching. As it is, I feel like I have won the lottery. And I feel great pain because the Church appears to be intransigent in this matter.Yes! I was trying to enforce your answer. Sorry if it didn’t seem that way
This realm of thinking reminds me a lot of Dark Night of the Soul!
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Anthony_V
Guest
Duly noted. What is your practice then?
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Whadyamean
Guest
I came upon it as a fundamental of Advaita. It is what, as far as I can tell, the “examination of conscience” used to be, or was in secret. It is essentially a form of self inquiry designed to defeat the habituated identifications of the mind with objects. Its end is the actual meaning of poverty ads a spiritual practice, which is the disassociation of self from identifying with objects. That is very simplistically put, but it is ancient and it works. I’m quite convinced that the “prayers” and other practices of such as St. Catherine of Sienna and of Meister Eckhart, and other Catholic (and other mystics) either consciously of unconsciously incorporated this element in a subtle or more obvious form. the form I am familiar with is more streamlined and deliberate.
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Anthony_V
Guest
So a latinized theosis removed from the monastic environment, so to speak? Or perhaps I’m wrong. It sounds like a Catholic-Buddhist philosophy to me.
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Whadyamean
Guest
Wow…“Today we have the naming of the parts…” Anthony, named after perhaps my favorite Saint, you are going to get boggled in you mind with terms at the expense of a vastly remarkable possibility. If you name it, you will rationalize that you think you know what it is and destroy the promise of an experience at the gaining of a minuscule iota of useless intellectual pseudo “knowledge.” Pray to your namesake to find a way to see what might be in your grasp.
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Anthony_V
Guest
If that’s the case, then why identify yourself with bits and pieces of Catholic mysticism? Nomenclature seems to be a big deal to you(which is understandable). For the practical purposes of this conversation, I suppose we’ll call it theosis; but again, identifying with such an institution in which you find to only have limited truth is confounding.
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