My atheist friend has stumped me

[paul_c]

You read it here. I do. Guilty as charged Me and many of my friends. For ages. Not the same words, but the same idea. We are rather consistent, even if we don’t know each other through time or space. This is not about learning something from a book or flights of imagination.

It points to, that with work, anyone willing to make the effort can discern that there is a factor in their experience that is in a position of “observer” to what transpires as experience without being involved with it or being acted on by it. From this point one can experiential understand that what is in the mind as thoughts, impressions, everything, is separate from this observing factor in a very important way. Turning on’s attention to this “observer” yields a perspective that cuts through the Gordian Knot of much of the dysfunctions of human experience.

Well, its nice that after a dozen or so posts, you finally decided to explain what you were talking about. And yes, I can understand what you are describing as being a dispassionate observer of what goes on around you. You can turn off the ego and mitigate your desires by mental exercize. But that doesn’t make us any less individuals and it certainly doens’t eliminate or minimize the truth the Church teaches about salvation. A mortal sin is still a mortal sin.

Of course we appear that way to one another through the senses. But this is not, as you can find out, not the ultimate functioning reality of the human. And since epistemology is pretty much poo-poohed in our society, to the point where what I’m talking about isn’t even intelligible to most, this understanding is a very unusual, albeit actual position from which the nature of the mind can be discerned. And you may note, Paul, that most of the people around us think about well enough to get to work and back without breaking a limb. But they do not have a working knowledge of what they are using to think with. And that is my point here. We need to know what we are thinking with, before any of our conclusions have any validity, and beyond that, Truth.

I’m not so sure. I think that many very simple people understand the true nature of the universe quite well. Its really not that hard if you let it through. Simply love with all your heart. The problem is, like Jesus says in the parable of the sower, Many people let their own desires and worldly ambitions drown out that simple truth that ultimately leads to all happiness.

Einstein speaks very clearly to this issue in his private papers. So if you wish to get out of the flatland dissonance that is a result in part of the Hume-Kant misfortune, this might be a way. As far as I can tell, Jesus liked it. And, if you wish, I will take the time to message you a useful page from Nisargaddata’s talks about the nature and purpose of inquiry. He is rather contemporary, but I can get you much older works as well, but he might be an excellent start, if you wish,

I don’t need it, thanks. I understand what you are describing but in my journey, my focus is different. I want to care more for people, not become dispassionate.

Well, I’ve got to be pretty dense then, Paul, because that is what takes up a lot of each of my days. It is something I try to consider even when doing “other” things. Thanks for the sage advice.

Love is all you need. But you need the grace of the sacraments to love completely.

I did benefit much from both of those, as you and others I chat with seem to continually forget. As I have said, mine is a deliberate choice made solely/soul-ly for myself on terms I found to be necessary for my spiritual well being. Mine, not yours, or anyone’s. But again thanks. You are clearly a good, kind, and thoughtful person.

Honestly, if you believe mass and the eucharist are inhibiting your spiritual well being, you are not in a good place. If you dont eat His body and drink His blood, you have no life within you. (John 6). Have you really fallen this far? Please abandon this tact you are on. It is stealing your soul away…

Are you by any chance trying to avoid some painful memory?

 

[Whadyamean]

Well, its nice that after a dozen or so posts, you finally decided to explain what you were talking about.

I have, all along. anyone even intellectually conversant with non dualism would have chimed in and spoken in a way revealing their understanding. Your statements have been and continue to be aimed at what is in your imagination about me, not at what I am pointing at. I have failed here, and you are worse off than before because you actually believe you have a handle on what I am talking about. I assure you, you do not.

And yes, I can understand what you are describing as being a dispassionate observer of what goes on around you. You can turn off the ego and mitigate your desires by mental exercize.

Yes, you have a self referential intellectual assessment of what you think I am saying according to what you have stored in memory. And no, you can see what your ego is not, and desires are seen for what they are. One is simply not identified with them while nothing else is changed. They don’t go away or have any less of a charge. The body is still the body, no? but because your experiential premise is different, it becomes impossible to break the Great Commandment except by ignorance of circumstance.

But that doesn’t make us any less individuals and it certainly doens’t eliminate or minimize the truth the Church teaches about salvation. A mortal sin is still a mortal sin.

What is the point of this statement? When you know what you are not, you are free to be what you are! If anything, you are exquisitely more aware of a fuller meaning of individuality and act that way on every level of your experience.

I’m not so sure. I think that many very simple people understand the true nature of the universe quite well. Its really not that hard if you let it through. Simply love with all your heart.

Undeniably so. But as in school, we have K>8, high school, college, and graduate studies, eh? You can be perfectly happy, loving, competent, etc, as I;m sure you are by your demonstration, and still have something to learn. Isn’t the biggest room in the Universe the “room for improvement?” What kind of limit have you set on yours? There is no obligation to open doors and windows or use a wall stretcher, or even go outside. But you don’t have to.

The problem is, like Jesus says in the parable of the sower, Many people let their own desires and worldly ambitions drown out that simple truth that ultimately leads to all happiness.

Yes, Jesus spoke more rightly than many imagine. But despite everything I’ve said, you seem to think that what I am saying has o do with worldly ambitions. I don’t understand what this has to do with the conversation.

I don’t need it, thanks. I understand what you are describing but in my journey, my focus is different. I want to care more for people, not become dispassionate.

That is fine, though you very clearly have no clue as to my intent. Perhaps we can then simply wish each other well and move on.

Love is all you need. But you need the grace of the sacraments to love completely.

Well said. The sacraments are an outward sign of an inward grace. When you discover something fascinating about “inward” and “outward,” perhaps we can chat again.

Honestly, if you believe mass and the eucharist are inhibiting your spiritual well being, you are not in a good place. If you dont eat His body and drink His blood, you have no life within you. (John 6). Have you really fallen this far? Please abandon this tact you are on. It is stealing your soul away…

I do not understand where you got this idea about my place relative to the Eucharist and the Mass. And really, I have been very tactful with you, as far as my abilities allow. And I am sorry that you have such and idea about my Soul not knowing to begin with what I am pointing to.

Are you by any chance trying to avoid some painful memory?

When you find yourself established in a Place beyond chance, memories are seen for what they are and lose their charge of control over you. And in fact, the protocol of inquiry I have hinted at is extremely effective at bringing awareness to buried memories and de-fusing them so you are no longer walking in a “mine” field of emotional triggers. The method of inquiry is a far more powerful tool than can be imagined.

God bless you and keep you, Paul, I know He does.

 

[paul_c]

I have, all along. anyone even intellectually conversant with non dualism would have chimed in and spoken in a way revealing their understanding. Your statements have been and continue to be aimed at what is in your imagination about me, not at what I am pointing at. I have failed here, and you are worse off than before because you actually believe you have a handle on what I am talking about. I assure you, you do not.

so, I went on the web and looked up non-dualism. From what I gathered out of it, its basically the concept of being one with the universe. And I’m sure that this is an oversimplification.

Jesus came among us, God incarnate, to show us the way to salvation. To demonstrate his divinity, he showed all kinds of signs - healing the sick, walking on water, and ultimately rising from the Dead. He set the church up to minister to the people and show them the way to heaven,which is fully communication with God.

You are ignoring all that - for some man-made philosophy featuring meditation on your oneness with the universe. I have done my duty, which is to show you the way back to the Truth. It is nw up to you. Good luck on your journey.

 

[Whadyamean]

so, I went on the web and looked up non-dualism. From what I gathered out of it, its basically the concept of being one with the universe. And I’m sure that this is an oversimplification.

Yes, primarily because it is an intellectual assessment of something that is beyond the mind as it is ordinarily perceived. Therefore you are doing the apples-oranges thing.

Jesus came among us, God incarnate, to show us the way to salvation. To demonstrate his divinity, he showed all kinds of signs - healing the sick, walking on water, and ultimately rising from the Dead. He set the church up to minister to the people and show them the way to heaven, which is fully communication with God.

You are ignoring all that - for some man-made philosophy featuring meditation on your oneness with the universe. I have done my duty, which is to show you the way back to the Truth. It is nw up to you. Good luck on your journey.

I am not ignoring that in the least bit. You just don’t see how that is included yet.

Thank you for your good wishes, Paul.

 

[paul_c]

Yes, primarily because it is an intellectual assessment of something that is beyond the mind as it is ordinarily perceived. Therefore you are doing the apples-oranges thing.

I am not ignoring that in the least bit. You just don’t see how that is included yet.

Thank you for your good wishes, Paul.

If you are separated from the sacraments, you ARE ignoring the Church and the teachings of Christ

 

[Whadyamean]

If you are separated from the sacraments, you ARE ignoring the Church and the teachings of Christ

In the paradigm you were born and habituated into, as was I, or into which you chose upon some incomplete consideration to join, yes, provided you don’t penetrate too far. I suggest that you haven’t yet, and that is all. I believe we are done, Paul. Thank you for your time and attention.

 

[alongexpected]

It’s one of those very difficult things to answer. In the end we find that if we truly believe that the fall of the world was because of man, then we also believe that disease etc came about because of that fall. Did the child do anything to warrant the suffering? No.

The problem with blaming disease and suffering on God is that we forget that most of those diseases are caused by mankind himself. We know that in America alone obesity and such are caused by our diet. We eat too many processed foods, too much meat, too much dairy, and not enough fruits and vegetables. We pollute our environment, we pour toxins into our water supplies, put poison in our ground, and genetically modify our plants. Who knows what this does to our bodies? To our genetic codes? To our children that are born surrounded by those concentrated toxins?

We also live in a world where we are taking God out of everything. He’s not allowed in our schools, our government buildings, our apartment complex lobbies, etc. Then we turn around and say, why isn’t God doing anything?

We also don’t know what would have happened to that child had they lived. In fact, we know the world is a pretty horrible place for most people anymore. We can rest in comfort knowing that no matter what, God does have a plan and his ways are higher than ours.

 

[alongexpected]

It’s one of those very difficult things to answer. In the end we find that if we truly believe that the fall of the world was because of man, then we also believe that disease etc came about because of that fall. Did the child do anything to warrant the suffering? No.

The problem with blaming disease and suffering on God is that we forget that most of those diseases are caused by mankind himself. We know that in America alone obesity and such are caused by our diet. We eat too many processed foods, too much meat, too much dairy, and not enough fruits and vegetables. We pollute our environment, we pour toxins into our water supplies, put poison in our ground, and genetically modify our plants. Who knows what this does to our bodies? To our genetic codes? To our children that are born surrounded by those concentrated toxins?

We also live in a world where we are taking God out of everything. He’s not allowed in our schools, our government buildings, our apartment complex lobbies, etc. Then we turn around and say, why isn’t God doing anything?

We also don’t know what would have happened to that child had they lived. In fact, we know the world is a pretty horrible place for most people anymore. We can rest in comfort knowing that no matter what, God does have a plan and his ways are higher than ours.

I’m sorry, but those last two points are very bad. To debunk the “we live in a world where we’ve taken God out of everything”, all I have to do is ask if there were any innocent children suffering, say, in 1927 before school prayer and all that was banned? Or if 1927 was still too godless for you, then, how about some other previous year? You pick.

As for your last point…it’s just disturbing. How you can justify a childs death by saying "she/he was better off that way in the long run? It’s one of the fallback arguments that the religious employ, the “goddidit” or “i have absolutely no idea so i’ll say that god works in mysterious ways”.

 

[paul_c]

I’m sorry, but those last two points are very bad. To debunk the “we live in a world where we’ve taken God out of everything”, all I have to do is ask if there were any innocent children suffering, say, in 1927 before school prayer and all that was banned? Or if 1927 was still too godless for you, then, how about some other previous year? You pick.

I agree with you. There have historically certainly been less devout times than this. But perhaps this isn’t the point after all. Those that separate themselves from God’s will, do indeed set themselves up for difficulties, if not in this world, then certainly the next…

As for your last point…it’s just disturbing. How you can justify a childs death by saying "she/he was better off that way in the long run? It’s one of the fallback arguments that the religious employ, the “goddidit” or “i have absolutely no idea so i’ll say that god works in mysterious ways”.

Well, your view of death as an athiest is much different than a Catholic’s view. For the athiest, death is the end of being. For a Catholic, its the start of eternal life in heaven, where all sadness is wiped away. So given that dichotomy, its not surprising that you would not understand the point.

Lets go back to the underlying issue, though. Why would a loving God allow suffering in the world? The reason also lies in a difference in understanding. You see, for an athiest, comfort in life is valued very highly because what else do they have? And suffering is the antithesis of comfort.

But you see, in the Catholic view, what is important in life is love - the giving of yourself without expecting anything in return. God does this perfectly, giving everyone everything they have. And by loving we do God’s will for us and ultimately, if we do that, we will enter heaven. And you see, counter to what you may think at first glance, suffering leads to love. When there is a natural disaster, there is a great outpouring of love. People, who do not normally do anything for their fellow man, suddenly find themselves donating money and time to help those in need. Similarly, when somone gets ill, people inevitably step up to help and to pray for them. In some cases, the outflowing of love from what most people would consider a disaster, is incredible. I coached a 14 year old girl in softball, who was inflicted with Cancer. The community completely rallied around her and her family, making meals, donating money, helping to transport her to Chemo, sending her countless emails and cards in support. She was even sent to disney world. This was a great outpouring of love for her. She felt appreciated in ways that she never felt before, to the point where she told me that despite the pain, it was the best time of her life. And hers is not a unique experience by any means. When bad things happen, love grows to compensate. Indeed, if no one needed anything, the impetus to love would be much diminished. (and remember, love is truly a synonym with charity)

So if comfort is what is important to you, suffering is clearly bad. But if you measure with love, suffering can indeed be very good.

 

[anthony022071]

When atheists ask why God allows the innocent to suffer they ignore the doctrines of eternal salvation and divine judgement,as if this life is the only life that we will have and that God will not recompense those who have suffered unjustly. They also don’t understand the redemptive value of suffering,because they don’t see that God takes it up and changes it to reward.

 

[Monica4316]

Jake, well I would say that suffering is a participation in Christ’s suffering on the Cross, it can be sactified… even though in itself it is not good, and the result of original sin, God can use it. Someday He will take away all suffering, right now is the time to use it to help other souls. It’s not a punishment for personal sin though… it’s not like the more you sin, the more often you get sick, etc. The Saints went through terrible ordeals and trials, and had painful illnesses, etc, they offered them up to God.

God bless!

 

[Monica4316]

Here is a sermon by St John Vianney that mentions this question Hope it helps!

"To love God! oh how beautiful it is! We must be in Heaven to comprehend love… Prayer helps us a little, because prayer is the elevation of the soul to Heaven… The more we know men, the less we love them. It is the reverse with God; the more we know Him, the more we love Him. This knowledge inflames the soul with such a love, that it can no longer love or desire anything from God… Man was created by love; therefore he is so disposed to love.

On the other hand, he is so great that nothing on the earth can satisfy him. He can be satisfied only when he turns towards God… Take a fish out of the water, and it will not live. Well, such is man without God. "There are some who do not love the good God, who do not pray to Him, and who prosper; that is a bad sign. They have done a little good in the midst of a great deal of evil. The good God rewards them in this life. "This earth is a bridge to cross the water; it serves only to support our steps… We are in this world, but we are not of this world, since we say every day, ‘Our Father, Who art in Heaven.’ We must wait, then, for our reward till we are at home, in our Father’s house. This is the reason why good Christians suffer crosses, contradictions, adversities, contempt, calumnies – so much the better! . . . But people are astonished at this. They seem to think that because we love the good God a little, we ought to have nothing to contradict us, nothing to make us suffer…

We say, 'There is a person who is not good, and yet everything goes well with him; but with me, it is of no use doing my best; everything goes wrong. It is because we do not understand the value and the happiness of crosses. We say sometimes that God chastises those whom He loves. That is not true. Trials are not chastisements; they are graces to those whom God loves… We must not consider the labor, but the recompense. A merchant does not consider the trouble he undergoes in his commerce, but the profit he gains by it… What are twenty years, thirty years, compared to eternity? What, then, have we to suffer? A few humiliations, a few annoyances, a few sharp words; that will not kill us."It is glorious to be able to please God, so little as we are! Our tongue should be employed only in praying, our heart in loving, our eyes in weeping.

We are great, and we are nothing… There is nothing greater than man, and nothing less. Nothing is greater, if we consider his soul; nothing is less, if we look at his body… We occupy ourselves with the body, as if we had it alone to take care of; we have, on the contrary, it alone to despise… We are the work of a God… one always loves one’s own work… It is easy enough to understand that we are the work of a God; but that the crucifixion of a God should be our work! that is incomprehensible."Some people attribute a hard heart to the Eternal Father. Oh, how mistaken they are! The Eternal Father, to disarm His own justice, gave to His Son an excessively tender heart; no one can give what he does not possess. Our Lord said to His Father: ‘Father, do not punish them!’ . . . Our Lord suffered more than was necessary to redeem us.

But what would have satisfied the justice of His Father would not have satisfied His love. Without Our Lord’s death, all mankind together could not expiate a single little lie."In the world, people hide Heaven and Hell: Heaven, because if we knew its beauty, we would wish to go there at all costs – we would, indeed, leave the world alone; Hell, because if we knew the torments that are endured there, we would do all we could to avoid going there."The Sign of the Cross is formidable to the devil, because by the Cross we escape from him. We should make the Sign of the Cross with great respect. We begin with the forehead: it is the head, creation – the Father; then the heart: love, life, redemption – the Son; then the shoulders: strength – the Holy Spirit. Everything reminds us of the Cross. We ourselves are made in the form of a cross. In Heaven we shall be nourished by the breath of God…

The good God will place us as an architect places the stones of a building – each one in the spot to which it is adapted. The soul of the saints contained the foundations of Heaven. They felt an emanation from Heaven, in which they bathed and lost themselves… As the disciples on Mount Thabor saw nothing but Jesus alone, so interior souls, on the Thabor of their hearts no longer see anything but Our Lord. They are two friends, who are never tired of each other…“There are some who lose the faith, and never see Hell till they enter it. The lost will be enveloped in the wrath of God, as the fish are in the water. It is not God who condemns us to Hell; it is we ourselves who do it by our sins. The lost do not accuse God; they accuse themselves. They say, 'I have lost God, my soul, and Heaven by my own fault. ’ No one was ever lost for having done too much evil; but many are in Hell for a single mortal sin of which they would not repent. If a lost soul could say once, ‘O my God I love You!’ there would be no more Hell for him . . . but, alas, poor soul! it has lost the power of loving which it had received, and of which it made no use. Its heart is dried up like grapes that have passed through the winepress. No more joy in that soul, no more peace, because there is no more love… Hell has its origin in the goodness of God. The lost will say, 'Oh, if at least God had not loved us so much, we would suffer less! Hell would be endurable… But to have been so much loved! what grief!”