My beliefs of tarot; advice

[BroIgnatius]

Most Catholic occultists define occult differently then some other people. For example, for most modern occultists of any religion, divination is a purely natural thing without the involvement of spirits, and oftentimes it is merely a way of tapping into the subconscious. Since there are no outside powers involved it is not really divination, that’s just a widely used term (albeit a misnomer).

I dare you to discuss that notion with your bishop. Better yet, write a letter to the Vatican and see what they say,

 

[graciew]

Pianist Clare, I think you should read some good Catholic authors such as Scott Han or Thomas Aquinas. I say this only out of concern, you appear to be suffering from a sort of spiritual despair and fear of the devil. To paraphrase Saint Anthony the Great “He [the Devil] is like a gnat that buzzes around your head. He is a nuisance but not a threat. Pray, and he shall leave.”

I think Claire is very realistic ,as usual.
Make it simple. Throw them away or make papier maché.
“Pray and he shall leave…ok.” But Tarot is calling for trouble to come to stay…

Our religion is very very rich in spiritual sources.
But the grass is always greener somewhere else…where gnats abund!!

.

 

[BroIgnatius]

Quite frankly, that notion is none of either my Bishop’s or the Vatican’s business. It is my own. However, there were many Saints and Clergyman and possibly even Popes who utilised, praised or allowed many of the sciences and practices we now consider “occult”. The teachings against the occult are teachings against Goetic magick, Theurgic magick was never condemned in the mainstream Church until recently, and many influential figures in the Church either practiced or allowed Theurgy. Now, I do not practice Theurgy. However, I value your opinion and you are perfectly entitled to your beliefs as I hope I am entitled to mine. God bless.

WHOA. You have just proven yourself a non-Catholic. This is a Catholic Spirituality thread, not an occult thread, thus you non-Catholic views are not wanted by me. And since your aberrant views have hijacked this thread into an evil discussion I will not respond to you two any longer (on any thread).

By the way, I will write the Vatican for you and quote you exactly.

 

[crenfro]

Hello.

This is from the Catholic Catechism. Maybe it will help.

Divination and magic

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

Can tarot cards be used for meditation (and not fortune telling)? If we interpret those cards as we want to interpret (see what we want to see), and they bring up thoughts about, “Maybe I could work on that in my relationship,” or, “Maybe I should go for that job offer,” is that just as sinful even though the cards didn’t do much but give generic advice and we gave them meaning?

 

[Aravalon]

Quite interesting seeing MOTT mentioned here.

I don’t think many people quite understand what that book is about. Firstly, it most certainly isn’t a divination manual, nor does it ‘speak positively about reincarnation’ - in fact the author posits that reincarnation is the result of the Fall and is overcome through Christ. And that bit only covers a few pages in a 600 page book.

‘Why read something like this’, you might ask. Ironically for exactly the same reason that some of you have attacked this book. If anything it has the effect of turning people AWAY from New Age hogwash and shows them how our rich Christian tradition can answer their questions. I’ve used MOTT to dissuade people from Gnosticism, neopaganism, and all sorts of errors, and on more than one occasion I’ve met devout Catholics who were converted with the help of it. Here’s an example of that:
corjesusacratissimum.org/2013/12/meditations-on-the-tarot-and-the-vatican/

Of course we should be on our guard against Satan, but frankly these crusades against anything sounding vaguely occult is anti-intellectual and uncatholic. Where would our tradition be if all of Plato and Aristotle’s works were tossed in the bin because they mentioned reincarnation? Somewhere down the years I think we’ve forgotten the verse ‘Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves’.

To answer OP, ultimately tarot are just playing cards, pretty pictures with a few Catholic symbols thrown in (if you have the Marseilles version). Meditating on the lives of the saints makes for better practice

 

[Tis_Bearself]

‘Why read something like this’, you might ask. Ironically for exactly the same reason that some of you have attacked this book. If anything it has the effect of turning people AWAY from New Age hogwash and shows them how our rich Christian tradition can answer their questions. I’ve used MOTT to dissuade people from Gnosticism, neopaganism, and all sorts of errors, and on more than one occasion I’ve met devout Catholics who were converted with the help of it. Here’s an example of that:
corjesusacratissimum.org/2013/12/meditations-on-the-tarot-and-the-vatican/

Of course we should be on our guard against Satan, but frankly these crusades against anything sounding vaguely occult is anti-intellectual and uncatholic. Where would our tradition be if all of Plato and Aristotle’s works were tossed in the bin because they mentioned reincarnation? Somewhere down the years I think we’ve forgotten the verse ‘Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves’.

I reckon it’s the type of thing where out of 10 Catholics reading, 9 of them wouldn’t have any problem understanding it just the way you say, but the 10th one would be negatively affected by it. It always amazes me how multiple people can read the same thing and come away with wildly different impressions of what it said or what the point was, but I see that daily on this forum alone. The rules are usually made to protect the people who might be negatively affected.

 

[BroIgnatius]

Reading the Saints is FAR, FAR safer and more accurate to Church teaching.

Regardless of anything else, expecting to get answers from any kind of Tarot cards, or a regular set of cards, or tea leaves, or Ouija boards, or anything else is by definition divination. There was one very foolish comment made that the divination done was not seeking spirits. Getting information from any spirit that is not of God, is by definition a demon. And God does speak through divination devices.

The definition of divination is "the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge…" This can be done by appeal to supernatural or occult means or by some other means. Trying to “foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge” is divination and is condemned by the Church.

Even playing a game, where the occult is just a part of the game, like Dungeons and Dragons and similar role play games is stupid and dangerous psychologically and spirituality.

 

[BroIgnatius]

The full quote is "All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself." You left out the last three words which changes the meaning.

lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0220.html#comment

It basically means, study Crowley, but come to your own conclusions.

What nonsense.

You misquoted this as well. The real line from the Rights of Man is: “Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.” It refers to the right of every person to fight against tyranny.

Yes, I did. I quoted from memory. But, the point is still the same. The Tyranny he speaks of is that toward anyone who would thwart those rights. And the point, is this was a commentary on " That thou harm none…" Last time I checked killing someone is harming them.

When I see Americans taking an issue with this, I ask them if they celebrate Independence Day, the national holiday in celebration of that time we killed those who thwarted our rights (the British).

Not claiming we harm none, deary.

 

[BroIgnatius]

So when the weatherman comes on the news, predicting the future using non-occult means, that is a sin?

Shessh. This betrays your disingenuousness or your delusion.

I shouldn’t have to say this, but the predicting the weather is not divination, OBVIOUSLY. It is based on science. It does not use cards to make its predictions.

 

[BroIgnatius]

I have proven myself a non-Catholic by stating historic church teaching? Someone is literally trying to be more Catholic than the Pope.

The following is not Catholic teaching:

Most Catholic occultists define occult differently then some other people. For example, for most modern occultists of any religion, divination is a purely natural thing without the involvement of spirits, and oftentimes it is merely a way of tapping into the subconscious. Since there are no outside powers involved it is not really divination, that’s just a widely used term (albeit a misnomer).

Apparently you are literally trying to be more Catholic than the Pope since you think your views about what is an oxymoron, “Catholic occultists”, is none of the business of the Church. By definition it is certainly the business of the Church.

You know the bishop will shoot you down. That is why you will not contact him to verify if you are even in the universe of Catholicism.

Who is your bishop? I will ask him. er, I know, you will not tell me, you do not wish to be exposed.

 

[BroIgnatius]

Hello.

This is from the Catholic Catechism. Maybe it will help.

The so-called “catholic” occultists do not care what the Church teaches on this.

 

[BroIgnatius]

Also, Bro Ignatius, we can kill people when they are heretics apparently. How about killing enemy soldiers?

I thought you were Catholic, but you bring up typical and wrong anti-Catholic propaganda. Execution is not a penalty from the Church now or ever.

The Church also says that killing in self-defense of okay, and killing in a just war is okay.

But, you are just throwing out nonsense, because that is all you have. No good riddance non-Catholic.

 

[BroIgnatius]

If you believe that thinking for yourself is nonsense, then I don’t know what to tell you.

Thelema doesn’t have a “harm none” clause. You are confusing it with Wicca.

Did Saint Anthony8 say he was an occultist? I don’t see where he identified himself as such, but I did see where he said he wasn’t a Thelemite. I know you yourself admitted to having some Crowley books (though you’ve been misquoting them), so it looks like we’re all in trouble.

StAnthony expressed views that belong in the realm of the occult philosophy, and you know it.

I have not “been misquoting them” There was one mistake from memory where I used the word “I”. That is all. Otherwise, I have quoted right out of the book.

That “harm no one” is not in your brand of satanism is not in your favor. As Crowley stated in his litany of rights that “Man has a right to kill those who would thwart THESE rights” that he just listed, rights based upon the premise (listed at the top) that “There is no god but Man” and listed as the first “right”, “Man as a right to live by his own Law.”

But, the reason for this trivial accusation is that you have nothing else. As a member of OTO and such, you should not even be here. I not even allowed you to be a member on a Catholic discussion board.

Good riddance. satanist. I will pray for your salvation, but I will not entertain you any longer.

 

[BroIgnatius]

Also, Bro Ignatius, we can kill people when they are heretics apparently. How about killing enemy soldiers?

I thought you were Catholic, but you bring up typical and wrong anti-Catholic propaganda. Execution is not a penalty from the Church now or ever.

The Church also says that killing in self-defense of okay, and killing in a just war is okay.

But, you are just throwing out nonsense, because that is all you have. No good riddance non-Catholic.

 

[BroIgnatius]

You accuse the weatherman of practising the occult and I’m nonsensical?

Are you on LSD. I made no such accusation. You made that comparison and I said that was stupid.’ I am out of here when my opponent cant think themselves out of a barn. You two are a pair, that is for sure.

But, thanks for the “debate”. I have copied it all and will be using it as an example in a forthcoming book and perhaps some essays. Good material. You have expressed numerous Liberal Tactics of Obfuscation, and ending on one called nitpicking, the mark of a small and petty mind.

 

[BroIgnatius]

By the way, for anyone still reading this thread, which are probably none, here are the Rights of Man by Aleister Crowley, father of 20th century satanism

There is no god but man.

Man has the right to live by his own Law.
Man has the right to live in the way that he wills to do.
Man has the right to dress as he will.
Man has the right to dwell where he wills to dwell.
Man has the right to move as he will on the face of the earth.
Man has the right to eat what he will.
Man has the right to drink what he will.
Man has the right to think what he will.
Man has the right to speak what he will.
Man has the right to write as he will.
Man has the right to mold as he will.
Man has the right to paint as he will.
Man has the right to carve as he will.
Man has the right to work as he will.
Man has the right to rest as he will.
Man has the right to love as he will, when, where, and with whom he will.
Man has the right to die when and how he will.
Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.

Source: Aleister Crowley, The Law is for All, ed.Israel Regardie. (Scottsdale, AZ: New Falcon Publications, 1991), 321 (Part 3, 60)

Any typos are unintentional.

At first glance, one may say “what’s wrong with that”. Satan always includes grains of truth to distract from the diabolical.

If one looks closely, these “Rights of Man” are devoid of any morality. It runs counter to nearly every virtue taught by Christianity and opens the door to any depravity, even against children, since Man has the right to live by his own Law wherein all the rest is just example.

By definition, a philosophy that runs counter to the philosophy and virtues of Christ is satanic, regardless if the person knows it or not, will not admit it, or sincerely denies it. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

There is no one occult philosophy. What’s called the occult is a nebulous collection of ideas that have historically been lesser known, and there is considerable overlap with the body of human knowledge in general. Labeling something “occult” is almost meaningless in the age of the Internet. You will have to address each idea individually

Would you like to have an intelligent discussion about the Rights of Man?

I wasn’t asking for your permission. There was nothing in the terms of service singling out the OTO. This is a Catholic message board, and I’m a Catholic.

OTO?

Very true about “occult”. “Occult” knowledge is now proclaimed, posted and published and there are so many flavors.

 

[BroIgnatius]

You misunderstand what Crowley is saying. He is saying man has the right to live by his own Law. The few don’t get to control the many. Every man has the right to be an individual and has individual rights. They have the right to, for example, go to church or not go to church, be a Catholic or not be a Catholic, practise magick or not practise magick. It is a wonderfully moral and brilliantly simple statement on the rights of the individual and the rights of the state.

I know he is saying that, dear. That philosophy is not Christian. We are to give up our own law and live by the law of Christ. Crowley’s philosophy is not Christian and he would fully admit that. Being directly counter to Christian philosophy and virtue makes it satanic.

And no, I am not going to go down the rabbit hole of your deliberate or perhaps innate intellectual contortions and reductionist false logic.

Many other religions are not in direct conflict. Tibetan Buddhists have a morality similar to Christians. I know, I have had many hours in discussion with a Buddhist friend. Mormons, who are not Christian, have a morality similar to Christians, as do many other groups.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

Crowley, Thelma and Louise, et. al., are not the only ones in direct conflict with Christ. But they are in direct conflict with Christ. These groups and people have been “deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator.”

Anyone defending them, even if not a part of them, is complicit in their error and in grave sin for scandal.

 

[BroIgnatius]

If you do use that in a book I will file a lawsuit as I expressly do not give you permission as that is a breach of privacy. I will sure for defamation and slander if you mention me by name, and even if you don’t I can and will still charge you with copyright violation. To avoid these charges you would have to change the exchange enough so that it would be considered a different exchange, which would by definition mean you are lying, and surely such a holier-than-thou Clintonion Catholic like yourself would never do that.

Well, if there was any doubt about me using this conversation, all doubt is now gone. It is guaranteed. A lawsuit. You are so precious. You do whatever you wish. Doesn’t bother me at all.

Clintonion?

You have completely lost it. I have met Clinton and a friend of mine worked for Hillary. I find him evil, and his wife demonic. Good one and soooooo pathetic.

 

[BroIgnatius]

Read US Code on Defamation and Copyright violation. I seriously could (and will) file a lawsuit, even if just to make a point.

I know the law. You bring it on, bubba. Of course, you will have to reveal who you really are and where you live. Can’t hide behind a “handle” in a lawsuit. It will be all public.