C
CARose
Guest
Thanks John,
CARose
CARose
- Status
I
IM3RD
Guest
La Chiara:
While I love reading the forum here, and contributing from time to time, sometimes I learn of “catholic sins” that I’d wished I hadn’t. I had no idea that I would be in “violation of Catholic faith” had I agreed, I simply refused out of principle regarding another issue. In retrospect, he will always be my brother regardless of his choices and I wish that I’d been better able to share in his celebration of love. Just because our family members sometimes fall away, doesn’t give us the right to “play God” and begin to judge their hearts and reasons for their actions.
I genuinely don’t think that he was purposely trying to “shun God” by not obeying Catholic Doctrine, and therefore deserved my support. We have reconciled “to a degree”, but like I said earlier, things just aren’t the same…
Maybe I’m not a good enough Catholic myself, but I certainly try to live the most Christian life that I know how. As my screen name implies, God First, Family Second, and I am third. Had I agreed to be my brother’s best man it would have not been a conscious decision to ignore Catholic Doctrine and place family above God.
Ultimately, in decisions like these, God knows our hearts. That IS why we have a conscience, right? Most of these issues are easily solved with a little prayer and a visit to one’s most trusted priest/spiritual adviser.
Sorry to ramble… and thanks for the advice.
I certainly don’t mean to “hijack” this thread, and I completely understand what you are saying…
While I love reading the forum here, and contributing from time to time, sometimes I learn of “catholic sins” that I’d wished I hadn’t. I had no idea that I would be in “violation of Catholic faith” had I agreed, I simply refused out of principle regarding another issue. In retrospect, he will always be my brother regardless of his choices and I wish that I’d been better able to share in his celebration of love. Just because our family members sometimes fall away, doesn’t give us the right to “play God” and begin to judge their hearts and reasons for their actions.
I genuinely don’t think that he was purposely trying to “shun God” by not obeying Catholic Doctrine, and therefore deserved my support. We have reconciled “to a degree”, but like I said earlier, things just aren’t the same…
Maybe I’m not a good enough Catholic myself, but I certainly try to live the most Christian life that I know how. As my screen name implies, God First, Family Second, and I am third. Had I agreed to be my brother’s best man it would have not been a conscious decision to ignore Catholic Doctrine and place family above God.
Ultimately, in decisions like these, God knows our hearts. That IS why we have a conscience, right? Most of these issues are easily solved with a little prayer and a visit to one’s most trusted priest/spiritual adviser.
Sorry to ramble… and thanks for the advice.
C
CARose
Guest
No problem, your comments are good food for thought and assist in clarifying where I’m coming from, and where I’m not coming from. Ultimately, I want a successful communication with my brother regarding where I stand and why, without him believing I am “judging him” but rather that I desire that which is better than that with which he is settling.
Yes, this is something I have also come to recently. I’m not very good at putting it into practice on a daily basis, but I’m trying. Sometimes, I get it first on a gut level, like this realization that I shouldn’t attend my brothers wedding, and other times I come across things through academic / head means first. I need to get better at putting things into action in a way that demonstrates through my daily efforts the love I have for God.
Yes, this is where for me, it’s a matter of conscience, as I say above, to NOT attend.
I want to be extremely cautious that I not allow my consciensious decision to come across as Spiritual Pride or lack of love for my brother or this wonderful woman with whom he wants to spend the rest of his life. They’re really great together, she wants kids (I think she’ll be a great mom, as he’ll be a great dad) and neither of them have been previously married, so there are no impediments that need to be resolved. I just know that without God in their marriage, as provided through the Sacrament of Marriage conferred on a valid marriage of a Catholic, they don’t get the best which they fully deserve.
Argh!
CARose
H
homeschoolhelen
Guest
I am pretty new to this forum, but I had to put in my two cents. I come from seven siblings and a sister that is getting married for the third time. The first marriage was in the church and lasted six months, the second was for two years and not in the church. She took a six year break. She worked on an annulment but got hooked up with a married man. He has since divorced and not working on an annulment. They are getting married in February. I will not be attending the wedding because without God, you have nothing.
**My older brother got married outside of the church and I went. My parents didn’t. I wish I wouldn’t have gone. **
**I say, don’t go. It is not acceptable. People live in a world without God. I pray hard for my siblings and love them dearly. But if you are raised Catholic and are Catholic, Marriage is a sacrament! A Sacrament. **
Hope I don’t sound so harsh, but I know from experience that you can be nice, but stick to your faith!
Blessings,
Helen
**My older brother got married outside of the church and I went. My parents didn’t. I wish I wouldn’t have gone. **
**I say, don’t go. It is not acceptable. People live in a world without God. I pray hard for my siblings and love them dearly. But if you are raised Catholic and are Catholic, Marriage is a sacrament! A Sacrament. **
Hope I don’t sound so harsh, but I know from experience that you can be nice, but stick to your faith!
Blessings,
Helen
A
anjel13
Guest
If it wasn’t your brother that was getting married would you go?
I understand where people are saying “stick to your faith” and everything, but what does your brothers actions have to do with “your” faith? You aren’t the one getting married out of the church, he is. You are not responsible for his actions. You can only be responsible for your own. I think that you have already made up your mind on this as it sounds like you won’t be going. I think you will be making a big mistake by not going. Besides, whether you condone it or not, he will still be getting married. I think I read where you said that they are already expecting a child. Since this child was concieved by the sin of pre-marital sex, are you going to distance your self from the child because you don’t agree with the sin that they commited? You brother is going to make his own mistakes and decisions in life. You cannot control what he does. But you can be a sister to him anyways and love him unconditionally and not judge him on every sin or mistake he makes. I’m sure you have your own sins, everybody does, I don’t think it’s right for you to judge your brother for his sins, it’s not your place. You can tell him how you feel and try to convince him otherwise, but you should not distance your self from him. Be a loving sister and pray for him.
I understand where people are saying “stick to your faith” and everything, but what does your brothers actions have to do with “your” faith? You aren’t the one getting married out of the church, he is. You are not responsible for his actions. You can only be responsible for your own. I think that you have already made up your mind on this as it sounds like you won’t be going. I think you will be making a big mistake by not going. Besides, whether you condone it or not, he will still be getting married. I think I read where you said that they are already expecting a child. Since this child was concieved by the sin of pre-marital sex, are you going to distance your self from the child because you don’t agree with the sin that they commited? You brother is going to make his own mistakes and decisions in life. You cannot control what he does. But you can be a sister to him anyways and love him unconditionally and not judge him on every sin or mistake he makes. I’m sure you have your own sins, everybody does, I don’t think it’s right for you to judge your brother for his sins, it’s not your place. You can tell him how you feel and try to convince him otherwise, but you should not distance your self from him. Be a loving sister and pray for him.
C
CARose
Guest
Hi Guys,
Quick update, spoke with my brother last night. PLEASE PRAY for them and for me. He was driving home from his cabin with his fiance.
(Oh anjel13, she’s NOT pregnant and never was to my knowledge, and if he were I would love their ‘love child’ as much as any other wonderful gift of life given by God. A child is a gift, NEVER a mistake.)
Anyways, he shared that he was sorry we weren’t able to get together and spend more time together when I was down in So. Cal. We chatted some on other things, I shared with him what we’d done on our visit, and then he asked if I was planning to attend the wedding.
I reiterated what I had previously shared, with the primary emphasis on the fact that they deserved the best, and that not having a valid marriage was depriving them of the Best which was meant for them. I shared with him that my not going would be one of the hardest things I would ever do because I so love him and his fiance. I am not against the two of them getting married, if anything, it’s exactly the opposite. I against the two of them, him a non-practicing Catholic, and her a nominally practicing Catholic, NOT getting married, and having a ceremony which would by all intents declare publicly their decision to NOT be married within the Church.
He brought up the fact that he had attended my first wedding, when I was married to my Israeli husband (it’s since been annulled after he left me when I realized in Israel that I could no longer consider being Jewish, as I knew in my soul that the Messiah was present and this was NOT a Jewish concept, it was Catholic). He claimed that while he wasn’t Jewish, he had attended to support me. Yes, he had, as had all my relatives. And yet, not one of them was a devout Catholic. The closest thing to the Catholic position were the concerns my sister raised, but they were against my willingness to become Jewish, rather than anything about my marrying outside the church.
My sister was a born-again Christian at the time, and she and I had a few conversations while I was dating where she shared how I would burn in Hell (which weren’t especially successful conversations, as the concept of God’s love or even her love, were sadly not included in any part of our talks). But even my sister attended the wedding, although she backed out of being a bridesmaid at the last minute (after I’d changed the pattern of the bridesmaids dresses to accommodate her pregnant figure).
…
Quick update, spoke with my brother last night. PLEASE PRAY for them and for me. He was driving home from his cabin with his fiance.
(Oh anjel13, she’s NOT pregnant and never was to my knowledge, and if he were I would love their ‘love child’ as much as any other wonderful gift of life given by God. A child is a gift, NEVER a mistake.)
Anyways, he shared that he was sorry we weren’t able to get together and spend more time together when I was down in So. Cal. We chatted some on other things, I shared with him what we’d done on our visit, and then he asked if I was planning to attend the wedding.
I reiterated what I had previously shared, with the primary emphasis on the fact that they deserved the best, and that not having a valid marriage was depriving them of the Best which was meant for them. I shared with him that my not going would be one of the hardest things I would ever do because I so love him and his fiance. I am not against the two of them getting married, if anything, it’s exactly the opposite. I against the two of them, him a non-practicing Catholic, and her a nominally practicing Catholic, NOT getting married, and having a ceremony which would by all intents declare publicly their decision to NOT be married within the Church.
He brought up the fact that he had attended my first wedding, when I was married to my Israeli husband (it’s since been annulled after he left me when I realized in Israel that I could no longer consider being Jewish, as I knew in my soul that the Messiah was present and this was NOT a Jewish concept, it was Catholic). He claimed that while he wasn’t Jewish, he had attended to support me. Yes, he had, as had all my relatives. And yet, not one of them was a devout Catholic. The closest thing to the Catholic position were the concerns my sister raised, but they were against my willingness to become Jewish, rather than anything about my marrying outside the church.
My sister was a born-again Christian at the time, and she and I had a few conversations while I was dating where she shared how I would burn in Hell (which weren’t especially successful conversations, as the concept of God’s love or even her love, were sadly not included in any part of our talks). But even my sister attended the wedding, although she backed out of being a bridesmaid at the last minute (after I’d changed the pattern of the bridesmaids dresses to accommodate her pregnant figure).
…
C
CARose
Guest
Hi Guys,
Quick update, spoke with my brother last night. PLEASE PRAY for them and for me. He was driving home from his cabin with his fiance.
(Oh anjel13, she’s NOT pregnant and never was to my knowledge, and if he were I would love their ‘love child’ as much as any other wonderful gift of life given by God. A child is a gift, NEVER a mistake.)
Anyways, he shared that he was sorry we weren’t able to get together and spend more time together when I was down in So. Cal. We chatted some on other things, I shared with him what we’d done on our visit, and then he asked if I was planning to attend the wedding.
I reiterated what I had previously shared, with the primary emphasis on the fact that they deserved the best, and that not having a valid marriage was depriving them of the Best which was meant for them. I shared with him that my not going would be one of the hardest things I would ever do because I so love him and his fiance. I am not against the two of them getting married, if anything, it’s exactly the opposite. I against the two of them, him a non-practicing Catholic, and her a nominally practicing Catholic, NOT getting married, and having a ceremony which would by all intents declare publicly their decision to NOT be married within the Church.
He brought up the fact that he had attended my first wedding, when I was married to my Israeli husband (it’s since been annulled after he left me when I realized in Israel that I could no longer consider being Jewish, as I knew in my soul that the Messiah was present and this was NOT a Jewish concept, it was Catholic). He claimed that while he wasn’t Jewish, he had attended to support me. Yes, he had, as had all my relatives. And yet, not one of them was a devout Catholic. The closest thing to the Catholic position were the concerns my sister raised, but they were against my willingness to become Jewish, rather than anything about my marrying outside the church.
My sister was a born-again Christian at the time, and she and I had a few conversations while I was dating where she shared how I would burn in Hell (which weren’t especially successful conversations, as the concept of God’s love or even her love, were sadly not included in any part of our talks). But even my sister attended the wedding, although she backed out of being a bridesmaid at the last minute (after I’d changed the pattern of the bridesmaids dresses to accommodate her pregnant figure).
Anyways, I reitterated that this was not about my not wishing him or their union well. It was about my desiring that it be better, the Best, as provided for by God, through the Sacrament of Matrimony.
I gave him the example of: If he had seen my ex-husband mistreat me on several occations before we were to be married, and he knew enough about the relationship to know it was not healthy for me to marry him, would it have been supporting me for him to attend, or to state clearly that he loved me but couldn’t stand witness to my doing something so destructive? I might not have understood it at the time, but how is it loving to support someone in doing that which is wrong?
And his getting married is not wrong, that’s exactly the point! I want him to get married, and I’m perfectly fine with the woman he has chosen to marry. I also shared that he has such an incredible history of making the right choices in his life. He went to medical school and has started a successful career. He has really good people as friends. He owns a nice home and has healthy habits. But this is a mistake. He deserves more than what he’s settling for and so does she.
…
Quick update, spoke with my brother last night. PLEASE PRAY for them and for me. He was driving home from his cabin with his fiance.
(Oh anjel13, she’s NOT pregnant and never was to my knowledge, and if he were I would love their ‘love child’ as much as any other wonderful gift of life given by God. A child is a gift, NEVER a mistake.)
Anyways, he shared that he was sorry we weren’t able to get together and spend more time together when I was down in So. Cal. We chatted some on other things, I shared with him what we’d done on our visit, and then he asked if I was planning to attend the wedding.
I reiterated what I had previously shared, with the primary emphasis on the fact that they deserved the best, and that not having a valid marriage was depriving them of the Best which was meant for them. I shared with him that my not going would be one of the hardest things I would ever do because I so love him and his fiance. I am not against the two of them getting married, if anything, it’s exactly the opposite. I against the two of them, him a non-practicing Catholic, and her a nominally practicing Catholic, NOT getting married, and having a ceremony which would by all intents declare publicly their decision to NOT be married within the Church.
He brought up the fact that he had attended my first wedding, when I was married to my Israeli husband (it’s since been annulled after he left me when I realized in Israel that I could no longer consider being Jewish, as I knew in my soul that the Messiah was present and this was NOT a Jewish concept, it was Catholic). He claimed that while he wasn’t Jewish, he had attended to support me. Yes, he had, as had all my relatives. And yet, not one of them was a devout Catholic. The closest thing to the Catholic position were the concerns my sister raised, but they were against my willingness to become Jewish, rather than anything about my marrying outside the church.
My sister was a born-again Christian at the time, and she and I had a few conversations while I was dating where she shared how I would burn in Hell (which weren’t especially successful conversations, as the concept of God’s love or even her love, were sadly not included in any part of our talks). But even my sister attended the wedding, although she backed out of being a bridesmaid at the last minute (after I’d changed the pattern of the bridesmaids dresses to accommodate her pregnant figure).
Anyways, I reitterated that this was not about my not wishing him or their union well. It was about my desiring that it be better, the Best, as provided for by God, through the Sacrament of Matrimony.
I gave him the example of: If he had seen my ex-husband mistreat me on several occations before we were to be married, and he knew enough about the relationship to know it was not healthy for me to marry him, would it have been supporting me for him to attend, or to state clearly that he loved me but couldn’t stand witness to my doing something so destructive? I might not have understood it at the time, but how is it loving to support someone in doing that which is wrong?
And his getting married is not wrong, that’s exactly the point! I want him to get married, and I’m perfectly fine with the woman he has chosen to marry. I also shared that he has such an incredible history of making the right choices in his life. He went to medical school and has started a successful career. He has really good people as friends. He owns a nice home and has healthy habits. But this is a mistake. He deserves more than what he’s settling for and so does she.
…
C
CARose
Guest
…
I personally have had difficulties in my own life as a result of not taking the Church seriously, and most especially with regards to the Sacrament of Marriage and the requirements of the Church. I know personally the heartbreak this can cause. I cannot support him in making the same mistake I have made. I again shared this with him and that I have no idea what problems being married outside the Church might present to him, but sometimes, you simply do what’s right because it’s the right thing to do.
He raised the issue that there isn’t a Catholic Church in the town where they want to be married, so perhaps they could look into one of the protestant or the Episcopelian Church. “No”, that’s not any better, and it’s not about the building.
If there isn’t a physical church structure in the area, does the Church require that people travel to the nearest Church to be married or are marriages performed outdoors still in some circumstances? Does anyone know if there are Universal strictures on this?
Also, he raised the concern that he didn’t want his guests sitting through a 1 1/2 hour Mass sitting in the hot, tropical sun. I told him that my pastor doesn’t do a Mass with a wedding ceremony unless he is certain that the couple are practicing Catholics and that many of their guests are also practicing Catholics. Therefore, a simple wedding service shouldn’t be impossible. Am I misleading him/them?
HomeSchoolHelen, Thanks for your support. The one thing I don’t want to do is come across as judgemental. I’m more concerned that they are settling for less than what God has to offer them than I am in the fact of their sins or doing things which aren’t acceptable. That aspect is between them and God, he gets to be the judge. But this ceremony is their opportunity to come together for all eternity. You don’t touch on eternity in any positive way without including God.
Angel13, you also asked:
anjel13:
On the other hand, if I were invited to the wedding of someone who is Catholic, even non-practicing, and they were not getting married in the Church? I suppose, based on all that I’ve stated above, I should make an automatic, No, I wouldn’t go. But, to be honest, I don’t have the same emotional stake in everyone I know as I have in my brother. I love him very much and being a witness to such a grave error hurts. But then again, if I were invited to the wedding, it would most likely be someone for whom I cared, at least to some degree. I guess I’d have to see what I felt the Holy Spirit desired of me. I’ve been told by my pastor that the Church does not require that I not attend my brothers wedding. And if I thought that my not going would result in a serious rift in the family relationship, he would strongly advise that I do go.
But, I am trying to help my brother see that I LOVE him and his fiance VERY MUCH, and that this is why I my need to not attend. It’s not a decision I take lightly.
…
I personally have had difficulties in my own life as a result of not taking the Church seriously, and most especially with regards to the Sacrament of Marriage and the requirements of the Church. I know personally the heartbreak this can cause. I cannot support him in making the same mistake I have made. I again shared this with him and that I have no idea what problems being married outside the Church might present to him, but sometimes, you simply do what’s right because it’s the right thing to do.
He raised the issue that there isn’t a Catholic Church in the town where they want to be married, so perhaps they could look into one of the protestant or the Episcopelian Church. “No”, that’s not any better, and it’s not about the building.
If there isn’t a physical church structure in the area, does the Church require that people travel to the nearest Church to be married or are marriages performed outdoors still in some circumstances? Does anyone know if there are Universal strictures on this?
Also, he raised the concern that he didn’t want his guests sitting through a 1 1/2 hour Mass sitting in the hot, tropical sun. I told him that my pastor doesn’t do a Mass with a wedding ceremony unless he is certain that the couple are practicing Catholics and that many of their guests are also practicing Catholics. Therefore, a simple wedding service shouldn’t be impossible. Am I misleading him/them?
HomeSchoolHelen, Thanks for your support. The one thing I don’t want to do is come across as judgemental. I’m more concerned that they are settling for less than what God has to offer them than I am in the fact of their sins or doing things which aren’t acceptable. That aspect is between them and God, he gets to be the judge. But this ceremony is their opportunity to come together for all eternity. You don’t touch on eternity in any positive way without including God.
Angel13, you also asked:
Interesting question, one I’ve already been faced with. My cousin, who was never baptised, may soon be announcing an engagement. Since he has never been baptised, he is in no way under the constraints of the Holy Catholic Church. Therefore, I would simply be thrilled that they have chosen to declare their love for one another before the community, in whatever ceremony he chose. I would love to see him come to the Catholic Church, but that is something he and the Holy Spirit will work out. I share with him my love of Christ and the Church but I try not to impose it on him or anyone else.
On the other hand, if I were invited to the wedding of someone who is Catholic, even non-practicing, and they were not getting married in the Church? I suppose, based on all that I’ve stated above, I should make an automatic, No, I wouldn’t go. But, to be honest, I don’t have the same emotional stake in everyone I know as I have in my brother. I love him very much and being a witness to such a grave error hurts. But then again, if I were invited to the wedding, it would most likely be someone for whom I cared, at least to some degree. I guess I’d have to see what I felt the Holy Spirit desired of me. I’ve been told by my pastor that the Church does not require that I not attend my brothers wedding. And if I thought that my not going would result in a serious rift in the family relationship, he would strongly advise that I do go.
But, I am trying to help my brother see that I LOVE him and his fiance VERY MUCH, and that this is why I my need to not attend. It’s not a decision I take lightly.
…
C
CARose
Guest
Angel13:
I appreciate your feedback. Each comment helps me to hone the message, such that when I spoke with him last night, I hope I didn’t come across as anything other than loving him, even if I wasn’t willing to accept his decision as a good one. When we ended the conversation, he said we’d talk further about it, and he’d think about it more. THIS is why YOUR PRAYERS are so necessary at this time. Please pray that this young couple follow the path of God as they approach their wedding.
OH, does anyone know what the Church’s position would be if they were to “elope” to a quiet Catholic wedding in their home Parish (they still have plenty of time to complete pre-cana and be married at home before July 4) and then celebrate their marriage with family and friends present to honor them in Belize? Could they stand before a group of people and perform what would to all intents and purpose look like a wedding, except that they would already be married? I believe it would have to not be a “minister” of any other religions, but could they have this be their “civil” / public wedding? Or would this simply be a sad sham and continue to perpetuate the idea that marriage in the Church is no longer necessary for any guests who don’t know better? (I’m trying to think creatively of how this might be handled, but I don’t want to simply create a new problem while solving the one at hand).
Thanks for your patience in reading this long missive!
God Bless,
CARose
Yes, we are called to be “Our Brothers Keeper”. Just ask Cain and Abel what God thought of the “I’m not my Brothers Keeper” response. And it’s not about “My Faith” it’s about God, a real God who will judge my brother just as He will judge me. I want my brother standing before God with his soul clean of serious sin. He lives a good life, he makes good decisions. I want to support him, carry him if I have to, through this decision. Ultimately, he will choose his own path and I will continue to love him, as I do right now, and will do on the day when they exchange whatever vows they select. But, if I can play any role in their ultimate salvation, this is a critical time to step up and do my part as a sister who loves him and cares about him very much.
I appreciate your feedback. Each comment helps me to hone the message, such that when I spoke with him last night, I hope I didn’t come across as anything other than loving him, even if I wasn’t willing to accept his decision as a good one. When we ended the conversation, he said we’d talk further about it, and he’d think about it more. THIS is why YOUR PRAYERS are so necessary at this time. Please pray that this young couple follow the path of God as they approach their wedding.
OH, does anyone know what the Church’s position would be if they were to “elope” to a quiet Catholic wedding in their home Parish (they still have plenty of time to complete pre-cana and be married at home before July 4) and then celebrate their marriage with family and friends present to honor them in Belize? Could they stand before a group of people and perform what would to all intents and purpose look like a wedding, except that they would already be married? I believe it would have to not be a “minister” of any other religions, but could they have this be their “civil” / public wedding? Or would this simply be a sad sham and continue to perpetuate the idea that marriage in the Church is no longer necessary for any guests who don’t know better? (I’m trying to think creatively of how this might be handled, but I don’t want to simply create a new problem while solving the one at hand).
Thanks for your patience in reading this long missive!
God Bless,
CARose
K
KCT
Guest
When faced with a similar situation, a wise priest told me, “Do whatever your mom does. If she goes to the wedding, go and support her. If she doesn’t go, stay home and support her.” To me, it was a matter of honoring my father and mother.
Sadly, my brother and sil decided to marry in Jamaica w/ no family there. They’re now divorced. —KCT
Sadly, my brother and sil decided to marry in Jamaica w/ no family there. They’re now divorced. —KCT
K
kage_ar
Guest
While I’m NO EXPERT on the official teachings, if these were my friends/family, I’d suggest the quiet wedding at the home Parish - then a big blow out bash in Belize solution.
Kage
Kage
C
CARose
Guest
I’m sorry to hear that KCT. I will pray for them both that they find peace in Christ.
I like your priest’s advice. In my case, my mother has already passed away (it will be 12 yrs this coming April) and my father is not practicing the faith. Although, he and I have had conversations regarding the faith during the past several holidays when I’ve attended various family functions. Due to the Church scandal he faced the fact that he calls himself Catholic, even though he hasn’t gone to Church in years (with the exception of the occasional funeral). He realized through his anger at what’s been happening with the Church that he still holds it as a part of his identity, something he hadn’t realized until then.
So here is evidence of how, in simple ways, God uses even that which is Evil for the ultimate Good. Perhaps, one little thought at a time, my brother, my father and all my family, may eventually be brought home to the faith.
Christ be with us,
CARose
I like your priest’s advice. In my case, my mother has already passed away (it will be 12 yrs this coming April) and my father is not practicing the faith. Although, he and I have had conversations regarding the faith during the past several holidays when I’ve attended various family functions. Due to the Church scandal he faced the fact that he calls himself Catholic, even though he hasn’t gone to Church in years (with the exception of the occasional funeral). He realized through his anger at what’s been happening with the Church that he still holds it as a part of his identity, something he hadn’t realized until then.
So here is evidence of how, in simple ways, God uses even that which is Evil for the ultimate Good. Perhaps, one little thought at a time, my brother, my father and all my family, may eventually be brought home to the faith.
Christ be with us,
CARose
C
CARose
Guest
Kage_ar,
Your reply posted while I was composing mine.
Kage_ar:
Wow, I’ve been reading the CCC - duh, now there’s a thought, huh?
CCC para 1632:
There is stuff about disparity of cult and even mixed marriages, but I don’t see references to the performances of a ceremony in addition to that performed by the priest. I thought I’ve seen it elsewhere.
Oh, and John (mssg # 20 above), thanks again for your contact info re: the Cathedral. I’ve sent them an e-mail, and am awaiting a response. I’m hoping they’ll have something to say. I did mention this to my brother and his only response was that there wasn’t a local Catholic Church and that he’d been told it would require a 20 minute flight in a prop plane for a priest to attend and officiate, something he didn’t further pursue. But he didn’t tell me to stop looking into it!
:tiphat:
CARose
Your reply posted while I was composing mine.
That’s what I’m considering doing, but I don’t know if I simply compound the problem by suggesting an equally inappropriate “solution”.
Wow, I’ve been reading the CCC - duh, now there’s a thought, huh?
CCC para 1632:
To me, it looks like the CCC says I have a serious responsibility to assist in teaching my brother the Truth as given to us by the Church. He’s my brother, I’m the oldest sibling, and I’m the only family member actively practicing the faith.
There is stuff about disparity of cult and even mixed marriages, but I don’t see references to the performances of a ceremony in addition to that performed by the priest. I thought I’ve seen it elsewhere.
Oh, and John (mssg # 20 above), thanks again for your contact info re: the Cathedral. I’ve sent them an e-mail, and am awaiting a response. I’m hoping they’ll have something to say. I did mention this to my brother and his only response was that there wasn’t a local Catholic Church and that he’d been told it would require a 20 minute flight in a prop plane for a priest to attend and officiate, something he didn’t further pursue. But he didn’t tell me to stop looking into it!
:tiphat:
CARose
C
CARose
Guest
Latest update.
Still haven’t heard from the Church in Belize. I’ll have to ask Father if his directory shows anything in Placencia (especially if they have e-mail contact information).
I did ask Father the other day if 1.) there was a Universal stricture against holding a Catholic Wedding ceremony outdoors. According to him, “No, there is not”. (Although, in discussion with some devout friends earlier today, it was agreed that within a Church is the preferred situation. Yup, won’t find me fighting anyone on this idea.
and 2.) It is not required that one have a full wedding Mass to be married in the Church. Same as above though, it is highly recommended that one enter into marriage with the sacrament of the Eucharist, but, as Father says, to be married in the Church all you need is a couple (a Man and a Woman, both free to marry) 2 witnesses and a Priest or Deacon. The Priest or Deacon then officiates over what can be a very short ceremony and you have a couple married in the Church.
No surprises here.
If anyone knows anything about Belize Diocese positions on weddings, I’d love to hear from you.
God Bless,
CARose
Still haven’t heard from the Church in Belize. I’ll have to ask Father if his directory shows anything in Placencia (especially if they have e-mail contact information).
I did ask Father the other day if 1.) there was a Universal stricture against holding a Catholic Wedding ceremony outdoors. According to him, “No, there is not”. (Although, in discussion with some devout friends earlier today, it was agreed that within a Church is the preferred situation. Yup, won’t find me fighting anyone on this idea.
and 2.) It is not required that one have a full wedding Mass to be married in the Church. Same as above though, it is highly recommended that one enter into marriage with the sacrament of the Eucharist, but, as Father says, to be married in the Church all you need is a couple (a Man and a Woman, both free to marry) 2 witnesses and a Priest or Deacon. The Priest or Deacon then officiates over what can be a very short ceremony and you have a couple married in the Church.
No surprises here.
If anyone knows anything about Belize Diocese positions on weddings, I’d love to hear from you.
God Bless,
CARose
M
monica_fan
Guest
Dear CaRose,
I just found your thread and finished reading through the responses. I can’t add to what has been said, except to tell you I admire how you are handling this. I also think that your conversations with your brother sound promising. I can tell that the two of you have a lot of respect and love for one another. That will see you through this, along with all the prayers!
God bless~
CARose:
I just found your thread and finished reading through the responses. I can’t add to what has been said, except to tell you I admire how you are handling this. I also think that your conversations with your brother sound promising. I can tell that the two of you have a lot of respect and love for one another. That will see you through this, along with all the prayers!
God bless~
C
CARose
Guest
Monica_Fan,
Thank you so much for you kind words. Yes, I do love my brother, very much. It is certainly my hope and prayer that something in what I share with him will have an impact and that I communicate to him only from a position of Love / Charity.
If anyone can share additional approaches to ensure the greatest likelihood of success, I’d be greatly appreciative of your (name removed by moderator)ut. In the meantime, the most important thing is your prayers, which I would most appreciate.
Thanks in advance,
CARose
Thank you so much for you kind words. Yes, I do love my brother, very much. It is certainly my hope and prayer that something in what I share with him will have an impact and that I communicate to him only from a position of Love / Charity.
If anyone can share additional approaches to ensure the greatest likelihood of success, I’d be greatly appreciative of your (name removed by moderator)ut. In the meantime, the most important thing is your prayers, which I would most appreciate.
Thanks in advance,
CARose
K
kage_ar
Guest
How about a BYOD trip
(Bring your own deacon) - if the local bishop allows, is there a priest/deacon who is a family friend who would be able to travel along with the rest of the family and give a blessing to this marriage?
C
CARose
Guest
This would be great if I knew a deacon. And you’re right in synch with where my mind has been going on this one!
:tiphat:
We do have a priest in the family, my mother’s cousin. However, as of now, he’s a bit of a rebel (I doubt many from here would agree with the book he published as a result of his Doctoral Thesis, on Divorce and Catholic teachings).
It was as a result of his name being raised that I even remembered him, he was close with my mother but she’s been gone nearly 12 yrs and I haven’t seen him since. They reconnected after I was out of the house.
But when I looked him up, I was surprised with what I found. He’s been moved out of two diocese, by my understanding after being asked to buck-up or leave by the Bishop. I’ve had a couple of conversations with him and he continues to be a great guy, but he’s a bit confused regarding Catholicism. (“The murder on the cross didn’t need to happen” - Argh! How can it be murder if the “victim” allowed it to happen. It was a sacrifice, he willingly participated or it couldn’t have occurred. He’s God, they didn’t do to him anything he didn’t allow!)
But he was asked, being a family member, and he said no. If he’s in schism or deemed a heretic, are his sacraments still valid? (I know what to watch for wrt the eucharist.) If a local bishop has told him he is not allowed to perform weddings, could he perform one in another diocese? Perhaps with the family connection he’d be allowed. Would it be valid? Would it be the kind of wedding I want for my brother. His comment regarding the crucifixion was in his closing remarks at a retreat mass. This retreat was well attended and yet the Sat am mass had only 5 people present plus the priest. He was even about to cancel it when he thought it might be just him and myself, but I encouraged him to go forward and we had a nice service. There were aspects that were illicit, but I believe the consecration was valid.
But his theology is off wack and he definitely doesn’t accept the authority of the Magisterium. Do I really want him there with all my family, further undermining the Church with them. Or do I allow the Holy Spirit to handle things, and pray for His conversion while still encouraging him to participate in this family event.
Hmm, what do you think?
I hope I’m not coming across as harsh. I love my mother’s cousin. He’s a really nice person, very warm and loving. So much so that it pained him greatly to see my mother in pain as she and my father went through their divorce. My mother insisted that he assist her and her other divorced friends when she felt at odds with the Church, now that she was not in a marriage.
The ministry she drew him into resulted in a change of direction for his doctoral thesis and the beginning of his schism from the church on issues related to annulments. Please pray for him. He needs to learn the important Good News of suffering, of how we are called to Pick up His Cross and follow Him.
I would love to have him attend, but i fear that he could further undermine their faith, for he has lost his, w/ithout his even being aware of it. He firmly believes that his errors are the way the Church should be going, and awaits a new Pope so the changes so needed can move forward. He knows he’s at odds with the Magisterium.
May saints have had periods where they were at odds with the Church. The thing that differentiates them, is that they accepted the Authority imposed upon them, even if it was hard to understand. As happens with God, these events typically placed the Saint in a stronger position for what was to come.
I could also see if there is a Carmelite Priest who would be available to come with us. I’d certainly like having the opportunity to have Mass said daily while there and perhaps they’d like the opportunity to travel to Belize. Heck, maybe we could make it a mini-missionary trip. Wouldn’t that be cool. What a decent wedding present that would be! Oh, I think I’m going to make a bunch of Rosary’s for the wedding party and then for the locals.
May I discern correctly as I pray and ponder on this,
CARose
:tiphat:
We do have a priest in the family, my mother’s cousin. However, as of now, he’s a bit of a rebel (I doubt many from here would agree with the book he published as a result of his Doctoral Thesis, on Divorce and Catholic teachings).
It was as a result of his name being raised that I even remembered him, he was close with my mother but she’s been gone nearly 12 yrs and I haven’t seen him since. They reconnected after I was out of the house.
But when I looked him up, I was surprised with what I found. He’s been moved out of two diocese, by my understanding after being asked to buck-up or leave by the Bishop. I’ve had a couple of conversations with him and he continues to be a great guy, but he’s a bit confused regarding Catholicism. (“The murder on the cross didn’t need to happen” - Argh! How can it be murder if the “victim” allowed it to happen. It was a sacrifice, he willingly participated or it couldn’t have occurred. He’s God, they didn’t do to him anything he didn’t allow!)
But he was asked, being a family member, and he said no. If he’s in schism or deemed a heretic, are his sacraments still valid? (I know what to watch for wrt the eucharist.) If a local bishop has told him he is not allowed to perform weddings, could he perform one in another diocese? Perhaps with the family connection he’d be allowed. Would it be valid? Would it be the kind of wedding I want for my brother. His comment regarding the crucifixion was in his closing remarks at a retreat mass. This retreat was well attended and yet the Sat am mass had only 5 people present plus the priest. He was even about to cancel it when he thought it might be just him and myself, but I encouraged him to go forward and we had a nice service. There were aspects that were illicit, but I believe the consecration was valid.
But his theology is off wack and he definitely doesn’t accept the authority of the Magisterium. Do I really want him there with all my family, further undermining the Church with them. Or do I allow the Holy Spirit to handle things, and pray for His conversion while still encouraging him to participate in this family event.
Hmm, what do you think?
I hope I’m not coming across as harsh. I love my mother’s cousin. He’s a really nice person, very warm and loving. So much so that it pained him greatly to see my mother in pain as she and my father went through their divorce. My mother insisted that he assist her and her other divorced friends when she felt at odds with the Church, now that she was not in a marriage.
The ministry she drew him into resulted in a change of direction for his doctoral thesis and the beginning of his schism from the church on issues related to annulments. Please pray for him. He needs to learn the important Good News of suffering, of how we are called to Pick up His Cross and follow Him.
I would love to have him attend, but i fear that he could further undermine their faith, for he has lost his, w/ithout his even being aware of it. He firmly believes that his errors are the way the Church should be going, and awaits a new Pope so the changes so needed can move forward. He knows he’s at odds with the Magisterium.
May saints have had periods where they were at odds with the Church. The thing that differentiates them, is that they accepted the Authority imposed upon them, even if it was hard to understand. As happens with God, these events typically placed the Saint in a stronger position for what was to come.
I could also see if there is a Carmelite Priest who would be available to come with us. I’d certainly like having the opportunity to have Mass said daily while there and perhaps they’d like the opportunity to travel to Belize. Heck, maybe we could make it a mini-missionary trip. Wouldn’t that be cool. What a decent wedding present that would be! Oh, I think I’m going to make a bunch of Rosary’s for the wedding party and then for the locals.
May I discern correctly as I pray and ponder on this,
CARose
C
CARose
Guest
Update:
I just realized I missed my brothers birthday (I’m really bad with time and dates, not my charism!), so I just got off the phone from calling him.
We chatted about various things, but then got into the subject of the wedding. I told him what I’ve learned, confirming what I’d suspected when we last talked. Apparently he didn’t get my e-mail where I shared a lot of the details (I’ll reforward it to him shortly).
Our conversation meandered into various things, but it concluded with his saying that he’d have Charisma look into the local priest again for performing the ceremony! Please Pray!
I then got into a little bit of asking whether he considered this to be a marriage for life, and he jokingly said “That’s the plan for now” and I told him how important it is to know that you’re committed because of the difficulties you WILL face. We chatted briefly on this and I talked with him about how I don’t know their requirements for Pre-Cana, but more likely than not, if they do require it, I suspect they’ll take his local Pre-Cana as sufficient. And regardless of any requirement, it’s a good idea to do Pre-Cana if they want to be certain their marriage gets off to a good start.
I haven’t mentioned again anything regarding their living situation. One step at a time. I mentioned that previously, they’re not ready to change it other than by moving on getting married. Now if I can get them to commit to doing it with a priest, we’ll let the Holy Spirit move them the rest of the way!
He ended the conversation by saying he’d have Charisma contact the wedding planner they’re using in Belize and have her look into getting a priest to perform the service. He brought the conversation back to this for the closing! He also said it would be OK from his perspective to have me continue to look into various ways for them to have a priest available to perform the service and to learn what is necessary for their ceremony to be done according to the Laws of the Church. I’m thrilled! I’ll continue to provide him with the information necessary for him to move forward and do what I can to make easy the path for him.
Thank you God. Please help me to help him according to Your Will.
CARose
I just realized I missed my brothers birthday (I’m really bad with time and dates, not my charism!), so I just got off the phone from calling him.
We chatted about various things, but then got into the subject of the wedding. I told him what I’ve learned, confirming what I’d suspected when we last talked. Apparently he didn’t get my e-mail where I shared a lot of the details (I’ll reforward it to him shortly).
Our conversation meandered into various things, but it concluded with his saying that he’d have Charisma look into the local priest again for performing the ceremony! Please Pray!
I then got into a little bit of asking whether he considered this to be a marriage for life, and he jokingly said “That’s the plan for now” and I told him how important it is to know that you’re committed because of the difficulties you WILL face. We chatted briefly on this and I talked with him about how I don’t know their requirements for Pre-Cana, but more likely than not, if they do require it, I suspect they’ll take his local Pre-Cana as sufficient. And regardless of any requirement, it’s a good idea to do Pre-Cana if they want to be certain their marriage gets off to a good start.
I haven’t mentioned again anything regarding their living situation. One step at a time. I mentioned that previously, they’re not ready to change it other than by moving on getting married. Now if I can get them to commit to doing it with a priest, we’ll let the Holy Spirit move them the rest of the way!
He ended the conversation by saying he’d have Charisma contact the wedding planner they’re using in Belize and have her look into getting a priest to perform the service. He brought the conversation back to this for the closing! He also said it would be OK from his perspective to have me continue to look into various ways for them to have a priest available to perform the service and to learn what is necessary for their ceremony to be done according to the Laws of the Church. I’m thrilled! I’ll continue to provide him with the information necessary for him to move forward and do what I can to make easy the path for him.
Thank you God. Please help me to help him according to Your Will.
CARose
H
homeschoolhelen
Guest
God Bless You! I reread what I wrote, I meant it, but I might have said it better. You did the right thing by being patient and helping. I, too, wanted to be like this but my sister is so angry all the time and is unaproachable. What I have learned is to pray and pray hard! I will pray that you go to the wedding and the priest blesses the marriage!
Helen
Helen
- Status