my brother the wiccan sent me a wreath - help?

[surfinpure]

I think I do understand the teachings of the Church on this issue. I think the Church acknowledges that pacts with the devil are possible, but teaches that the common belief in witches and magic is misplaced. If there is a contrary teaching I would like to learn of it. I am quite certain that the Church does not believe that Wiccan rituals are effective.

Here is in part what the CCC has to say:

**2117 **All practices of *magic *or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. *Spiritism *often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

In addition, if the Church did not believe in the danger of witchcraft, sorcery, magic, etc., she would not have her own team of exorcists to deal with such grave matters. I refer you to the book I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread: An Exorcist Tells His Story, by Father Gabriel Amorth, the chief exorcist for Rome. This man operates under the authority of the Holy See, and if you read what he has to say, you will come away with an entirely new perspective on the seriousness of the occult.

I will offer this, since it seems to be of some interest to you. Father Amorth states that while it is rare, it is not at all impossible for a demonic attack, even a full possession, to fall upon a righteous person by the hands of occultists. He goes on to describe cases in detail. The picture is not a pretty one. I will leave you to read the rest and decide for yourself whether you believe.

mary

 

[guanophore]

Do you routinely bless gifts that you give to friends who do not share your religion? No one I know does so unless they are trying to convert them.

Actually I do. I bless everything I give to anyone, and ask that the object may become a source of blessing to others. I even bless things of mine that have been stolen, and pray that those who took them may come to know a true respect for persons made in the image and likeness of the Divine. After studying Wicca, I learned that this way of being in the world (to be united with the Divine and be a source of blessing) is not so foreign to the Wiccan way of thinking.

My family has a habit of doing this to us, which I find a bit amusing, as I remember distinctly my dad telling us at one point when we were children that we shouldn’t say “bless you” if someone sneezed because they might not be really Christian and God couldn’t bless someone who wasn’t a real Christian, so asking it was rather blasphemous (my father has a rather idiosyncratic and at times rather bizarre view of Christianity–I am well aware of this ).

I pray that everyone whose path crosses mine each day might be blessed by my presence and my service, whether that is actions or objects. It has more to do with converting me, though, than it does others.

 

[KarenNC]

Actually I do. I bless everything I give to anyone, and ask that the object may become a source of blessing to others. I even bless things of mine that have been stolen, and pray that those who took them may come to know a true respect for persons made in the image and likeness of the Divine. After studying Wicca, I learned that this way of being in the world (to be united with the Divine and be a source of blessing) is not so foreign to the Wiccan way of thinking.

And you would do this secretly to a gift you gave a family member, knowing that that family member would consider such a blessing not only problematic but actively evil? If the brother knows that the OP is Catholic and considers that Wicca is basically antithetical to his religion, I would say that there is a more than fair chance that he also knows that things that have been so blessed would cause, at minimum, concern for the OP.

One can certainly be united with the Divine and be a source of blessing in one’s individual actions without those actions including doing things that are known in advance to be likely to be hurtful to others. In fact, as I understand it, specifically doing one’s best to avoid things that are known in advance to be likely to be hurtful to others is pretty core to Wicca.

 

[TMC]

Here is in part what the CCC has to say:

**2117 **All practices of *magic *or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. *Spiritism *often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

In addition, if the Church did not believe in the danger of witchcraft, sorcery, magic, etc., she would not have her own team of exorcists to deal with such grave matters. I refer you to the book I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread: An Exorcist Tells His Story, by Father Gabriel Amorth, the chief exorcist for Rome. This man operates under the authority of the Holy See, and if you read what he has to say, you will come away with an entirely new perspective on the seriousness of the occult.

I will offer this, since it seems to be of some interest to you. Father Amorth states that while it is rare, it is not at all impossible for a demonic attack, even a full possession, to fall upon a righteous person by the hands of occultists. He goes on to describe cases in detail. The picture is not a pretty one. I will leave you to read the rest and decide for yourself whether you believe.

mary

I appreciate your viewpoint. I am familiar with the catechism, and just don’t agree with your interpretation of this passage. I really am not particularly interested in this topic, and was only offering my two cents to OP on what I would do. I am happy to discuss this further, if you like, but equally happy to leave each of us to our beliefs.

 

[Bennie_P]

I am a little confused about exactly what to do. My brother is an open wiken. He’s a litteral witch. anyhow they worship trees. they go out into the woods and do around a tree something close to what evangeliscals do before an alter. dancing and jumping and such.

here is the question my brother sent me a wreath the kind made a garland that you hang on your doors for christmas. this one he made out of an old tree that we use to have lying around the house. the chances of it being blessed at some wicken rite are pretty good. It however is seen as a emotional gesture by the family. he found a photo of us all around it. it was our christmas tree for 8 years or so. what do I do with that? Is it enough to have it blessed by a priest. does anyone know anything about this sort of thing. would it be a sin to hang it up? help

The tradition of the wreath is not wiccan, though it may have a pagan beginning which has been adapted to have a Christian meaning. I wouldn’t worry about it, show your Christian love by accepting the gift for as Christians we know there is no God but God. It is just superstitious to give it power it cannot have. Thank your brother and give him a big hug and kiss and wish him a Merry Chrisitmas.

The tradition of hanging the wreath is now essentially a Catholic ritual. This is done during the Christmas season, traditionally known as Advent. The traditional Advent Christmas wreath had four candles in the circle and one candle in the middle. The candles are either white or three are violet in color and one is a rose candle. The wreaths were made of evergreen leaves, which are considered to symbolize the permanence of life. The wreath is a circle which means that there is no beginning or end and God is eternal.

The candles have their own significance. Each day, one candle is lit and the middle candle is lit on Christmas Eve especially. This symbolizes the birth of infant Jesus. Prayers are usually recited when the candles are lit. The candles are lit up just before people sit to have dinner. The decoration used for the wreath used to be nuts, seedpods, pinecones that were considered to be symbols of resurrection and permanence of life. Though the Christmas wreath has now become more of a decorative wreath, the significance and importance of the wreath remains undeterred and shall remain so till eternity.
festivals.iloveindia.com/christmas/christmas-wreath/history.html

History, Customs and Folklore of Advent

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=3994
The Advent wreath is part of our long-standing Catholic tradition. However, the actual origins are uncertain. There is evidence of pre-Christian Germanic peoples using wreaths with lit candles during the cold and dark December days as a sign of hope in the future warm and extended-sunlight days of spring. In Scandinavia during winter, lit candles were placed around a wheel, and prayers were offered to the god of light to turn “the wheel of the earth” back toward the sun to lengthen the days and restore warmth. By the Middle Ages, the Christians adapted this tradition and used Advent wreaths as part of their spiritual preparation for Christmas. After all, Christ is “the Light that came into the world” to dispel the darkness of sin and to radiate the truth and love of God (cf. Jn 3:19-21). By 1500, both Catholics and Lutherans had more formal practices surrounding the Advent wreath.

 

[estesbob]

do you not have any siblings? do you not understand how delicate these situations can be? If I come right out and ask him and I am right I have just lost a brother do to his shame. He has inlaws who are the very worst examples of christian people who do this to him all the time. they give his kids crosses and things. If I come right out and ask him and I am wrong I have still lost a brother due to the implied insult. it is difficult having a witch for a brother. I pray for him, but I fear he will be lost.

Don’t you just love it when pagans lecture Catholics and how we should practice our religion.? If you have any doubt whatsoever about the wreth of course you should have a blessed. Your brother has been seduced by the dark side so in my opinion his motives are already suspect. I would get the wreath blessed and I would pray unceasingly for your brother.

 

[KarenNC]

Don’t you just love it when pagans lecture Catholics and how we should practice our religion.?

And precisely how have my suggestions differed from yours? Other than I did not suggest that he include in a thank you note an object which he already knows will be specifically and intentionally offensive to his brother based on what the brother’s inlaws are constantly sending him?

 

[surfinpure]

I appreciate your viewpoint. I am familiar with the catechism, and just don’t agree with your interpretation of this passage. I really am not particularly interested in this topic, and was only offering my two cents to OP on what I would do. I am happy to discuss this further, if you like, but equally happy to leave each of us to our beliefs.

This is fair enough. Blessings to you.

mary

 

[geauxtigers]

I am a little confused about exactly what to do. My brother is an open wiken. He’s a litteral witch. anyhow they worship trees. **they go out into the woods and do around a tree something close to what evangeliscals do before an alter. dancing and jumping and such. **

here is the question my brother sent me  a wreath the kind made a garland that you hang on your doors for christmas.  this one he made out of an old tree that we use to have lying around the house.  the chances of it being blessed at some wicken rite are pretty good.  It however is seen as a emotional gesture by the family.  he found a photo of us all around it.  it was our christmas tree for 8 years or so.  what do I do with that?  Is it enough to have it blessed by a priest.  does anyone know anything about this sort of thing.  would it be a sin to hang it up?  help

Please don’t compare someone else’s way of worship to a pagan ceremony.

 

[blacktiger057]

Your brother has been seduced by the dark side so in my opinion his motives are already suspect

The dark side? Are you serious? Someone’s been watching a little to much Star Wars…

 

[MR_Cioran]

Just hang the thing up on your door. Who cares.

 

[estesbob]

The dark side? Are you serious? Someone’s been watching a little to much Star Wars…

2117 All practices of *magic *or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. *Spiritism *often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

Looks like the dark side to me.

 

[blacktiger057]

2117 All practices of *magic *or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. *Spiritism *often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

Looks like the dark side to me.

No, “So the Bible tells me so” is not applicable here. Magick has changed greatly over the centuries. Besides, Christians wanted people to fear pagans so that they could gain more followers. This, unfortunately, was one of the ways to do that. Leviticus says that I can keep slaves from Canada. The phrase “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” was originally “Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live”. Sorceress here means murderer or poisoner, not one with magickal powers. So, it originally meant, “Thou shalt not suffer a murderer to live”. Yet the Bible says “Thou shalt not kill”…hmmm…My point is that while the Bible does have some good points, it can also be very contradictory. Can you explain why this is evil besides quoting passages from the Bible? Why is it evil?

The Bible paints the witch as an evil, misleading figure in history. You can’t look at witches and mark them as evil just because they practice magick. Besides, prayer is magick. And what Catholics believe the priest does at Mass is considered magick. So really, you are breaking yoru own rules…

I agree when you/the Bible says that you shouldn’t use magick to harm others. This is a big focus in Wicca.

Please don’t judge people who practice magick as evil and wrong. Why can’t we all be peaceable, live and let live? Besides, everyone basically does magick if they have willpower and intention.

 

[estesbob]

No, “So the Bible tells me so” is not applicable here. Magick has changed greatly over the centuries. Besides, Christians wanted people to fear pagans so that they could gain more followers. This, unfortunately, was one of the ways to do that. Leviticus says that I can keep slaves from Canada. The phrase “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” was originally “Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live”. Sorceress here means murderer or poisoner, not one with magickal powers. So, it originally meant, “Thou shalt not suffer a murderer to live”. Yet the Bible says “Thou shalt not kill”…hmmm…My point is that while the Bible does have some good points, it can also be very contradictory. Can you explain why this is evil besides quoting passages from the Bible? Why is it evil?

The Bible paints the witch as an evil, misleading figure in history. You can’t look at witches and mark them as evil just because they practice magick. Besides, prayer is magick. And what Catholics believe the priest does at Mass is considered magick. So really, you are breaking yoru own rules…

I agree when you/the Bible says that you shouldn’t use magick to harm others. This is a big focus in Wicca.

Please don’t judge people who practice magick as evil and wrong. Why can’t we all be peaceable, live and let live? Besides, everyone basically does magick if they have willpower and intention.

Since you are in a Catholic forum you should not be suprised when people quote the cathecism and the Bible. And you’ll have to excuse me if i m not interested in what a pagans interpretion of Scriptue is,

Most people involed in Wican are playing dressup and involving themselves in what the consider just anther new age fad, BUT sorcery and witchcaft are the work of the Devil. one messes with it at their own risk

 

[blacktiger057]

Since you are in a Catholic forum you should not be suprised when people quote the cathecism and the Bible. And you’ll have to excuse me if i m not interested in what a pagans interpretion of Scriptue is,

Most people involed in Wican are playing dressup and involving themselves in what the consider just anther new age fad, BUT sorcery and witchcaft are the work of the Devil. one messes with it at their own risk

I quite understand that people will use the Bible to ‘prove’ what they are saying, as this is, as you said, a Catholic forum. But, when it comes to judging people, such as witches, I don’t really want to hear anything from the Bible. Everyone knows that the Bible says witchcraft is the work of the devil and anyone who practices it is evil, and you probably know by now how this annoys me… . Basically, on matters of judging people based on witchcraft, I am disgusted on what the Bible has to say about this subject. I want to hear why people claim it is the devil’s work, not be constantly told it is evil without any reason, except that the Bible says not to.

You need to stop stereotyping about Wiccans. Some are just into the latest new age fad, but most are not. It is considered a religion, whether you like it or not.

The practice of magick is basically using the neutral energy that is around us and using that to direct our willpower. This energy is not automatically good or evil. How the user uses it determines that. My life has changed for the better since I started using magick. I have never used it to curse or for anything you might consider evil. People like Scott Cunningham never had any demonic encounters, and he did rituals every other day! So, I have difficulty believing this is the devil because 1. All my experience with magick has been good and 2. You have never said why it is so clearly the work of satan.

 

[estesbob]

I quite understand that people will use the Bible to ‘prove’ what they are saying, as this is, as you said, a Catholic forum. But, when it comes to judging people, such as witches, I don’t really want to hear anything from the Bible. Everyone knows that the Bible says witchcraft is the work of the devil and anyone who practices it is evil, and you probably know by now how this annoys me… . Basically, on matters of judging people based on witchcraft, I am disgusted on what the Bible has to say about this subject. I want to hear why people claim it is the devil’s work, not be constantly told it is evil without any reason, except that the Bible says not to.

You need to stop stereotyping about Wiccans. Some are just into the latest new age fad, but most are not. It is considered a religion, whether you like it or not.

The practice of magick is basically using the neutral energy that is around us and using that to direct our willpower. This energy is not automatically good or evil. How the user uses it determines that. My life has changed for the better since I started using magick. I have never used it to curse or for anything you might consider evil. People like Scott Cunningham never had any demonic encounters, and he did rituals every other day! So, I have difficulty believing this is the devil because 1. All my experience with magick has been good and 2. You have never said why it is so clearly the work of satan.

Wican is like a little kid playing with a loaded gun. He has no idea the danger he is in. Its fun for a while but eventually it goes off-the only question is who besides himself is he going to hurt.

 

[KarenNC]

Leviticus says that I can keep slaves from Canada. The phrase “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” was originally “Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live”. Sorceress here means murderer or poisoner, not one with magickal powers. So, it originally meant, “Thou shalt not suffer a murderer to live”. Yet the Bible says “Thou shalt not kill”…hmmm…

Couple of problems here, blacktiger. Continuing to use language that equates modern Wiccans with those figures termed as “witches” in ancient and medieval times doesn’t do you any good. They are simply not the same thing at all and that’s rather the crux of the matter.

The commandment is more properly translated “Thou shalt not murder” not “thou shalt not kill”. It’s an important distinction. There is plenty of killing in the Hebrew Scriptures including genocide, most of it by the explicit command of God.

 

[blacktiger057]

use language that equates modern Wiccans with those figures termed as “witches” in ancient and medieval times doesn’t do you any good. They are simply not the same thing at all and that’s rather the crux of the matter.

Yes, I’ve said in other posts that WIcca dn paganism are different. But most Wiccans are witches, so I sometimes use them interchangeably, even though they are different things to. So right now I am talking about witches in general, whether they be pagan or Wiccan. A lot of people think that the Bible phrase I mentioned actually means that we should kill all witches, and I was just explaining how it got mistranslated.

You can disagree if you want. I don’t really feel like argueing over terminology though…Probably get as many different answers as there are people.

Wican is like a little kid playing with a loaded gun. He has no idea the danger he is in. Its fun for a while but eventually it goes off-the only question is who besides himself is he going to hurt.

No it’s not. Wiccans aren’t little kids and some are quite intelligent people. They do have good knowledge of the dangers that magick can pose, so they use it only when needed after all else has failed, and they don’t harm anyone while using it. Otherwise they will have to pay somehow. You make Wiccans sound like fluffy bunny dunderheads who love storybook magic. I am wuite serious about my religion. I do not ‘play.’ This is a religion, and should be taken as seriously as any other. Stop stereotyping and tell me what makes the religion of WIcca evil, please. I still haven’t gotten a straight answer.

 

[blacktiger057]

The commandment is more properly translated “Thou shalt not murder” not “thou shalt not kill”. It’s an important distinction. There is plenty of killing in the Hebrew Scriptures including genocide, most of it by the explicit command of God.

Can you explain this difference between kill and murder? In my thesaurus, they are synonymus. And I have problems with God ordering creation to kill each other, and not as means as survival.

 

[Bennie_P]

I quite understand that people will use the Bible to ‘prove’ what they are saying, as this is, as you said, a Catholic forum. But, when it comes to judging people, such as witches, I don’t really want to hear anything from the Bible. Everyone knows that the Bible says witchcraft is the work of the devil and anyone who practices it is evil, and you probably know by now how this annoys me… . Basically, on matters of judging people based on witchcraft, I am disgusted on what the Bible has to say about this subject. I want to hear why people claim it is the devil’s work, not be constantly told it is evil without any reason, except that the Bible says not to.

You need to stop stereotyping about Wiccans. Some are just into the latest new age fad, but most are not. It is considered a religion, whether you like it or not.

The practice of magick is basically using the neutral energy that is around us and using that to direct our willpower. This energy is not automatically good or evil. How the user uses it determines that. My life has changed for the better since I started using magick. I have never used it to curse or for anything you might consider evil. People like Scott Cunningham never had any demonic encounters, and he did rituals every other day! So, I have difficulty believing this is the devil because 1. All my experience with magick has been good and 2. You have never said why it is so clearly the work of satan.

Where does it say in the Bible we are not to judge people? or their actions?

Anytime one trys to manipulate unseen “power” that only belongs to God to control is doing great evil, for they are claiming to be as God, attempting to control forces better left alone. If you cannot measure the “powers” or see the “powers” then how do you know of it’s source? Though one cannot see electricity, it is a power in which man can measure and control and determine it’s sources, that is a natrual energy. but when it comes to “magic” where is that power coming from? what is the source? what does it really do? and how does it affect you and those around you? The deciever will allow you to be drawn in and it will appear benign, but once you start believing you are control then it will turn on you and in the very lest you will hold on to the evil known as disbelief. Once it has you disbelieving that God is good and that all that believe in God are ignorant then it has already done a great evil. You become the judge you keep telling others not to be and soon you find yourself feed up even with the exsitence of others that disagree with you and maybe even yourself. Your tolerance becomes intolerance, your idea of love becomes based on hate. the evil comes but dress up as something you accept as change and goodness, but is that change at the cost of your rejection of what once taught to you as good? But now annoys you?