My Catholic Friend Receiving Anglican Eucharist

[Michael68]

I’ve been reading following this thread since the original post but haven’t had the time to throw my two cents in until now.

It seems this has devolved into a debate on the Real Presence. Is this what this thread is about? There are a gazillion threads here about that…

I don’t know if there is much I can add to this topic that hasn’t been said already - and said far more gently that I might say it. Holy Orders, Apostolic Succession, and the Real Presence vs. symbol have been covered here already.

Usually when discussing the Real Presence I like to refer to 1 Corinthians 11:27-29…

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

The only thing left that I can say is that if the OP’s friend should talk with her pastor and have HIM explain to her why she should not be doing this. If she is as faithful a Catholic as he says she is, she will make the effort to see him - and listen to him.

I’m sorry sir, but some of us did not participate in threads of the past. Sometimes these topics evolve

 

[Michael68]

I’m a former Baptist, so I’m a little non-committal on this issue.

I don’t understand why when you can come in physical contact with Our Lord.
I understand prejudices being taught to us as children, but when as an adult you find o, ut you CAN meet Jesus now in this world, what is stopping you?

 

[Wannano]

In any of these obvious metaphors did He say:
“Unless you eat this light, gate, shepherd, or vine you do not have life within you.”?
No, He did not. Apples and oranges friend

You say these are obvious metaphors, how did you determine that?

In John 4 : 6 - 15 Jesus tells the woman from Samaria he wants a drink. After a bit he tells her that if she knew who he was she would ask him for a drink and she thought he was talking about water in the well. In verse 14 he says that whoever drinks of the water he gives would never thirst again and that the water he gives would be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. He was talking metaphorically as he usually did. Or is there something I do not grasp here?

 

[Michael68]

You say these are obvious metaphors, how did you determine that?

In John 4 : 6 - 15 Jesus tells the woman from Samaria he wants a drink. After a bit he tells her that if she knew who he was she would ask him for a drink and she thought he was talking about water in the well. In verse 14 he says that whoever drinks of the water he gives would never thirst again and that the water he gives would be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. He was talking metaphorically as he usually did. Or is there something I do not grasp here?

Could He be referring to His Blood? Unless you drink it, you do not have life within you. Jesus’s words not mine

 

[Thorolfr]

Could He be referring to His Blood? Unless you drink it, you do not have life within you. Jesus’s words not mine

Why would Jesus say “water” when he meant “blood”. Also, wells usually have water, not blood, in them. Blood obviously would not fit with the water and well metaphor.

 

[Wannano]

Agreed, He is not a God of confusion. I never said He speaks via me, which is why I used the word MAY. Can you show me where I have ever made the statement that Jesus is speaking through his Church via Duane?

But again, not one person on this thread has challenged my central point. Wannano, what individual or group wields the power to bind and loose you? What authority will you submit to, even if you disagree with what they bind?

In your opening statement in post 38 you Duane, say He is speaking through the Church… you are the author of that post and later you said He may ask of us Protestants why we did not listen to His messengers which I take to be The Roman Catholic Church and you specifically as a member of that Church on this post.

I promise I will think on the second question and answer you. The binding and loosing concept is hard for me to grasp.

 

[Michael68]

Why would Jesus say “water” when he meant “blood”. Also, wells usually have water, not blood, in them. Blood obviously would not fit with the water and well metaphor.

Ok, fine sir. If you want to deny the “Real Presence” that’s on you. I still don’t understand why you would not listen to Jesus on this. I’m not an expert.
I’m not sure how to get through to someone who denies the “Real Presence” All I can say is you may be a cafeteria Christian

 

[Wannano]

I guess the question is on you now. Where in these verses does he say it is a symbol?

I will give you the answer after you first answer mine.

 

[Michael68]

I will give you the answer after you first answer mine.

Wow, ok, your questions weren’t about symbology? Please ask them again. I have a gig to play very soon and will try to keep up

 

[Duane1966]

Wow, ok, your questions weren’t about symbology? Please ask them again. I have a gig to play very soon and will try to keep up

I will answer one of them for you. In John 6, John uses the words phago and trogo.

trogo" is never used metaphorically in either koine or classical Greek. “trogo” (= “I eat,” present indicative) is used six times in various verb forms in the New Testament:

Matt. 24:38
John 6:54, 56, 57, 58
John 13:18

As a preliminary matter, the main issue is not whether “trogo” can refer to something other than munching or chewing, but whether “trogo” is ever used in a non-physical sense. The meaning in the above passages concerns only the physical act of eating, which distinguishes the meaning from being merely symbolic, as is true of its counterpart “phago” which is sometimes used symbolically (cf., John 4:32; 1 Cor. 10:3). In fact, there is no symbolic usage of “trogo” in the New Testament or in classical literature, and “trogo” is not used in the LXX.

If John meant Jesus was speaking metaphorically, why switch from a word phago, which can be viewed as symbolic, to the word trogo, which has never been used symbolically? He could have just stuck with phago.

 

[Wannano]

Could He be referring to His Blood? Unless you drink it, you do not have life within you. Jesus’s words not mine

Michael, one thing I have tried to do is answer questions that are asked of me. At least acknowledge that someone asked you one. When you avoid my questions it makes me feel you do not have the answer so you just avoid it. There is nothing wrong in admitting you don’t know an answer. It is rude in my opinion to ignore.

I will answer your question. No, I do not think he was talking of blood. He was talking of His message of salvation, of forgiveness for sin, of freedom in Him. Of putting away a life of sin and putting on the new man (WOMAN) . The water He gives not only satisfies our thirst it takes it away. Just the same as drinking His blood is going to Calvary with Him and crucifing
our sinful nature, leaving our heavy burden at the cross while accepting new life with Him living in us learning of Him and from Him as we eat of Him the Bread of Life.

 

[Michael68]

Michael, one thing I have tried to do is answer questions that are asked of me. At least acknowledge that someone asked you one. When you avoid my questions it makes me feel you do not have the answer so you just avoid it. There is nothing wrong in admitting you don’t know an answer. It is rude in my opinion to ignore.

I will answer your question. No, I do not think he was talking of blood. He was talking of His message of salvation, of forgiveness for sin, of freedom in Him. Of putting away a life of sin and putting on the new man (WOMAN) . The water He gives not only satisfies our thirst it takes it away. Just the same as drinking His blood is going to Calvary with Him and crucifing
our sinful nature, leaving our heavy burden at the cross while accepting new life with Him living in us learning of Him and from Him as we eat of Him the Bread of Life.

Sorry if I seem rude. Please what are your questions again? I thought they had to do with symbology and I probably got the woman at the well wrong in my zeal to help you understand. I’m having a hard time concentrating right now. I hit the stage in 45 min or so

 

[Wannano]

Sorry if I seem rude. Please what are your questions again? I thought they had to do with symbology and I probably got the woman at the well wrong in my zeal to help you understand. I’m having a hard time concentrating right now. I hit the stage in 45 min or so

Break a leg! (If that applies)

 

[fbl9]

Ok, fine sir. If you want to deny the “Real Presence” that’s on you. I still don’t understand why you would not listen to Jesus on this. I’m not an expert.
I’m not sure how to get through to someone who denies the “Real Presence” All I can say is you may be a cafeteria Christian

I will give you the answer after you first answer mine.

Okay i imagine both of you have read these verses you two are speaking of.

 

[fbl9]

I will give you the answer after you first answer mine.

You have read the same verses as me and come to a conclusion different than mine.
We can’t beat each other with scripture,for we see the same words differently. Only one of us can fall back on history.

 

[GKC]

You can deny the “Real Presence” alll you want to. I won’t make that mistake.

And if you think I’m denying that, in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really, and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord; that is, the whole Christ, you don’t know me very well.

Which, of course, is not necessarily a bad thing.

Too subtle, perhaps. Yeah, too subtle.

 

[Wannano]

I will answer one of them for you. In John 6, John uses the words phago and trogo.
If John meant Jesus was speaking metaphorically, why switch from a word phago, which can be viewed as symbolic, to the word trogo, which has never been used symbolically? He could have just stuck with phago.

I just read an article at Catholicplanet.net that insists John wrote his gospel and Revelation in Aramaic not Greek. Another Catholic article suggests possibility of John having help in compiling his gospel. Honestly, I would not know what the truth is for sure.

 

[Wannano]

Sorry if I seem rude. Please what are your questions again? I thought they had to do with symbology and I probably got the woman at the well wrong in my zeal to help you understand. I’m having a hard time concentrating right now. I hit the stage in 45 min or so

No problem, scroll back to #41.

 

[Duane1966]

I just read an article at Catholicplanet.net that insists John wrote his gospel and Revelation in Aramaic not Greek. Another Catholic article suggests possibility of John having help in compiling his gospel. Honestly, I would not know what the truth is for sure.

And yet neither possibility infringes one iota on what I posted. Even if it were originally written in Aramaic, or if John had help compiling his gospel, the translation into the Greek is clear in John 6. To argue Jesus is being symbolic in John 6, you must ignore the use of the word trogo. If you say you are not sure of the translation, remember, anyone can say that about any part of the Bible, as there are no originals.

You have not answered questions that I asked you earlier. I will ask again. Since Jesus gave the authority to bind and loose to His Church:

1.) Who wields the power to bind and loose you?

2.) Will you submit to this authority even if you disagree with it?

3.) If you answer no to question 2, have you not appropriated to yourself the power of binding and loosing that Jesus gave His Church?

 

[rfournier103]

I’m sorry sir, but some of us did not participate in threads of the past. Sometimes these topics evolve

My apologies to you.

The Real Presence is a topic near and dear to me. I would never fault anyone from defending it.

Again, please accept my apologies.