My Catholic friend wants to be an Episcopalian.

[PRmerger]

I like contemporary Christian music. It inspires me. The Episcopal church I’ve mentioned is more traditional. But 2 other Episcopal churches near me have contemporary services among their array of various types of services. One has a Christian band performing at one of their 4 services and the other a jazz ensemble at one of their 3 services. I understand though about what you say about exclusiveness.

Just so the lurkers are aware: when Catholics talk about the Mass we don’t refer to the Divine Liturgy as a “service”. ( I am aware that this is what Episcopalians may call their liturgy–so no correction made on what you stated above, Matt.)

Other things offered at a Catholic Church may be a service–such as a prayer service, praying of the Divine Mercy Chaplet, communion service, penance service…but the Mass, not.

BTW: What does your signature mean?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

You’re probably right about Christian outreach. But I know of other outreach programs of various faiths that have thrift type shops where clothing has a nominal charge. And I just happen to like the idea that this one offers clothing, food, meals at absolutely no charge whatsoever to the recipients. I like the idea of not charging any amount of money, no matter how small, to those who are already short on funds and in need.

Also inclusiveness is what I like. I believe Christ wants His Church to be inclusive. A hospital for sinners too not only for saints.

On your other points I guess I just have yet to be as convinced as you that the Episcopal Church is irreconcilable with Christianity or that one can not be saved if attending and worshiping there. God bless you on your faith journey. Peace.

Ideally, you’re right, a church should not ask for any fees. But, on the other hand, I also understand that it’s not easy to maintain these outreach programs financially. A small nominal fee might go a great way to sustaining these programs for an indefinite period of time while at the same time not seriously hampering outreach efforts.

I’d like to clarify that I did not intend to mean that the Episcopal Church doesn’t preach sound doctrine at all, I assume some autonomous parishes still preach a more conservative brand of Christianity. But, I hope you understand, it is difficult to watch some of the syncretic services and still consider those parishes in question Christian. People who want them are of course free to go and enjoy them. However, if I had a friend interested in Christianity would I recommend Episcopalianism? Probably not.

 

[Christianus_Dei]

Does your friend know the history behind this Church? Honestly, I don’t understand how any Anglican can remain in that church with the way it was founded. Henry the 8th, persecution and execution of those who remained loyal to the religion that Henry betrayed.

 

[anruari]

I remember that the Anglican Church had some kind of merger with the Catholic Church. Is it possible that something similar happened with the Episcopalians that I’m not aware of?

NO the Pope announced a new method for Lay people, clerics, or entire congregations to enter into communion with Rome, with a “express route” to ordination for people who had been clergy in their old church.

Rome has repeatedly stated that the worldwide Anglican Communion does not have “Valid Holy Orders” - therefore no simple merger is possible, or entering into communion - Therefore converts who are clerics in Anglican / Episcopal churches must apply to be re-trained and re-ordained after they convert.

In the UK this is in the form of “The Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham”. They have their own bishop, and the right to hold religious services based on those in the “Book of common Prayer” (a slightly modified version with specific areas of theological difficulty altered or removed).

This has effectively created a new “Rite” within the Catholic Church, but membership of that rite is restricted to converts from Anglicanism / Episcopalianism or those born into it.

Rome has stated an intention to extend the structure of the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham to other countries in the near future.

While this does create a theoretical route for the whole Episcopailian communion to enter into communion with Rome, it is highly unlikely due to the strong “liberal” factions who would be unlikely to accept the teaching of Rome on a wide range of issues. - therefore what is unfortunately more likely is that we will see more and more defections of “Anglo-Catholics” and other conservatives to Catholicism and Orthodoxy, both on a personal level, and on a parish level, until the Episcopalian Church is left with few or no conservative voices at all, and will cease to be truly Christian (i.e. rejecting the historicity of Christ and / or His Divinity)

 

[anruari]

have him google Bishop Spong.

I did that.
Good grief… according to the Wikepedia article about him his “theology” and morals are more akin to Satanism than to Christianity.

Certainly by denying Theism, the Virgin Birth, the Historical Resurrection, or the concept of an objective moral code, he cannot be considered to be Christian, by anyone who associates Christianity with the Creed.

 

[RileyG]

I’m sure numbers are down in the Episcopal Church as they are for all churches save maybe the Pentecostal movement. However, I don’t think you can speculate that the Episcopal Church is slowing dying because you have a few former Episcopalians in your parish anymore than I can say the Episcopal Church is thriving because a fourth of my parish is made up of former Roman Catholics. For good reasons or for bad reasons, people church shop.

My apologies for being so blunt. Anyway, my priest told me that if there was no Catholic Church in town or a city, then I would go to an Episcopalian Church and still fulfill my obligation. This did shock me. I do not know if it is true or not. I also know that Episcopalians have open-communion and any baptized Christian can receive communion from them. However, let’s do pray that our divisions will end, and unite as on as Christ said. John 17.
God bless you.

 

[Nabooru]

I did that.
Good grief… according to the Wikepedia article about him his “theology” and morals are more akin to Satanism than to Christianity.

Certainly by denying Theism, the Virgin Birth, the Historical Resurrection, or the concept of an objective moral code, he cannot be considered to be Christian, by anyone who associates Christianity with the Creed.

I don’t understand how they could have kicked out the woman who insisted her conversion to Islam did not exclude her from continuing as an Episcopal priest, and keep him in.

 

[CMatt25]

Just so the lurkers are aware: when Catholics talk about the Mass we don’t refer to the Divine Liturgy as a “service”. ( I am aware that this is what Episcopalians may call their liturgy–so no correction made on what you stated above, Matt.)

Other things offered at a Catholic Church may be a service–such as a prayer service, praying of the Divine Mercy Chaplet, communion service, penance service…but the Mass, not.

BTW: What does your signature mean?

No correction was assumed PR since like you lurkers could see as well that what I stated referred to Episcopalians since I wasn’t talking about Catholics. They can see too that I’m not a Catholic since it is not in my “Catholic Answers” profile that I am. We’re cool.

 

[CMatt25]

Does your friend know the history behind this Church? Honestly, I don’t understand how any Anglican can remain in that church with the way it was founded. Henry the 8th, persecution and execution of those who remained loyal to the religion that Henry betrayed.

Who better than TEC to know it’s own history.

“History of the Episcopal Church: The beginnings of the Church of England, from which the Episcopal Church derives, date to at least the second century, when merchants and other travelers first brought Christianity to England…”

episcopalchurch.org/page/history-episcopal-church

It’s not the only Christian faith to repudiate the authority of the Papacy and break from Rome. According to the link above “Henry intended that the English Church would remain Catholic, though separated from Rome.” Maybe that’s why Episcopalians tell me they are Catholic just not Roman Catholic. And unfortunately persecution has not been unknown to religions across the board.

(Note to PRMerger if you are reading this. That I stated “Episcopalians tell me they are Catholic”. Not that Catholics says they are.)

 

[Contarini]

Your friend should want to be an Episcopalian only if he supports the killing of the unborn, the ordination of women, the ordination of homosexual men or women, contraception on demand

Inaccurate. The only of these that is even remotely mandatory in the Episcopal Church is acceptance of the ordination of women. Protections for the consciences of those who disagree with women’s ordination have indeed seriously eroded over the past few years. Certainly no Episcopalian is asked to believe in the ordination of women, and obviously if a woman celebrates the Eucharist you could just abstain from receiving. It’s mostly an issue if you want to be ordained.

Nonetheless, this erosion gives reasonable ground for concern that similarly there might come a time when conservative views on the other issues you mention, particularly homosexuality, are no longer tolerated.

and to believe as he pleases while maintaining the illusion that this is Christianity.

Episcopalians are not, as I said, asked to believe in the things you mention above. They are, however, asked to affirm the Nicene and Apostles’ Creeds.

You are therefore misinformed.

They do, however, have worship services full of pomp and circumstance, patterned after the Catholic Mass. My :twocents:

The average Episcopal parish is small and has little opportunity for pomp and circumstance.

I find our liturgy to be both more beautiful and less pompous than yours. The latter is particularly the case since the new revisions of your Mass translation, which add a good deal of pomp without, to my ear, adding much beauty.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I don’t understand how they could have kicked out the woman who insisted her conversion to Islam did not exclude her from continuing as an Episcopal priest, and keep him in.

Because Rev. Redding was under the canonical authority of a relatively conservative bishop (by contemporary Episcopalian standards).

I doubt that she would have gotten into any trouble in Spong’s diocese of Newark. Indeed, the bishop under whom she served on the West Coast was OK with what she was doing. But her “home” bishop thought otherwise.

Episcopalianism, for better or worse, is very much a diocese-by-diocese affair. The current PB seems to be making moves to strengthen central authority over against the dioceses, which concerns many of us since we see no ecclesiological basis for such a move.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

And, I would add: what’s the point of going to a church that preaches everything that aligns with your own views?

Don’t you think that if there is a God, and he came and started a Church, that he’s going to proclaim some things that are not aligned with your own personal views?

If you are in a church that happens to agree with every single thing that you agree with, then I daresay that you’re probably in a church that’s formed in your own image, not God’s.

Precisely.

That is not an argument that works well against my membership in the Episcopal Church, since I disagree with a number of the stances taken by the denomination. But that’s not to say that my reasons for joining were legitimate ones either. Now I’m in it, though, and breaking communion with fellow-Christians is a serious business.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Was Anglican. Now the ACNA fills that role.

That’s a common misconception (or, in some cases, a deliberate attempt to seize power by redefining language).

I can’t think of any reasonable definition of “Anglican” by which what you say is true.

For instance, if you define Anglicanism in terms of communion with Canterbury, then we are still in (slightly impaired) communion with Canterbury; ACNA isn’t, though they would like to be.

If, however, you define it in terms of use of the Prayer Book–as far as I know the ACNA mostly uses the same BCP we do. The Continuing Anglicans argue, in some cases, that they are the “true” Anglicans in spite of not being in communion with Canterbury, because they use a more traditional BCP than we do. But that doesn’t apply to ACNA. In fact, many of their parishes seem pretty loosey-goosey liturgically.

Episcopal membership has dropped by a third in the past few decades.

I find the continual use of numerical success as a criterion of faithfulness to Jesus to be deeply troubling when employed by ostensibly orthodox Christians.

There are plenty of reasons to criticize the Episcopal Church. But our loss in numbers does not in itself say anything about our faithfulness or lack thereof.

There’s only so much you can put up as sham Christianity before people stop buying it.

if you don’t believe in the resurrection, or even think there is no afterlife and Jesus never really existed in a literal sense, TEC is for you.

Funny, then, that Episcopalians affirm the resurrection every Sunday. Certainly there are those who doubt or spiritualize the doctrines they officially affirm, and there are a couple of parishes that don’t use the Creed, but that’s not characteristic of the Episcopal Church as a formal religious body.

What I don’t understand is why KJS is out vilifying those anglicans that leave TEC when it’s supposed to be all about openness and dialogue. And why she’s forcing congregations to give up their churches so TEC can have a bunch of empty churches lying around. (But they’re THEIR churches, darn it!).

The Presiding Bishop does indeed seem to have a strong view of church authority when it comes to the national church, which I find ecclesiologically troubling. I do not think that charity and justice allow me to conclude that she is simply engaging in a power play (though of course power is tempting for everyone). Rather, I think (based on hearing her speak at our diocesan convention last fall) that she has an ecclesiology in which different denominations rightly embody different aspects of the faith; that she sees the Episcopal Church’s task to be embodying a “progressive,” social-justice oriented, liturgical approach; and that she wants to preserve the Episcopal Church as a unified religious body carrying out that task.

She has been very gracious to my own (evangelical) bishop, as far as I can tell. If you don’t leave, she’s fine with you. But she has no mercy on any attempt to set up an alternative “Anglicanism.”

Your statement at the beginning of your post, ironically, helps explain this. When folks are as confused about who is “Anglican” as you seem to be, one can understand why Episcopal ecclesiastics get nervous.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I do hope that more Episcopalians become Catholic (Praise to God forever and ever. Amen). Also, not to mention, the Episcopalian Church is slowly dying, it’s not going to make it IMHO.

I think you are wrong. I think it’s going to remain fairly small, but it’s going to be a niche church for educated people who have moderate to liberal social and political views and love liturgical Christianity.

I find that prospect appalling, even though I sort of fit the niche (my views on abortion certainly don’t mesh with the dominant views in the Episcopal Church, but otherwise. . . )

Edwin

 

[GKC]

I think you are wrong. I think it’s going to remain fairly small, but it’s going to be a niche church for educated people who have moderate to liberal social and political views and love liturgical Christianity.

I find that prospect appalling, even though I sort of fit the niche (my views on abortion certainly don’t mesh with the dominant views in the Episcopal Church, but otherwise. . . )

Edwin

I agree as to the ultimate fate of the Episcopal Church.

GKC

 

[CMatt25]

And, I would add: what’s the point of going to a church that preaches everything that aligns with your own views?

Don’t you think that if there is a God, and he came and started a Church, that he’s going to proclaim some things that are not aligned with your own personal views?

If you are in a church that happens to agree with every single thing that you agree with, then I daresay that you’re probably in a church that’s formed in your own image, not God’s.

PR, I’ve been contemplating this. Your views above might be confusing to some lurkers. What exactly does your church preach or proclaim that does not align with your views or which you don’t agree with? If you say nothing now Matt. That is somewhat the point of my signature of which you were curious about earlier. You responded to treatment. But if a hospital rejects those who are sick and who are not responding to the treatment given, they have less sick people in their midst and have a purer facility that’s for sure. Less sick people = less bacteria, viruses, germs, etc, and thus is purer. But if it means they are satisfied with that even if it makes the hospital smaller, just as a motel with a no vacancy sign as no room, small hospitals can end up having less rooms. Or rooms that are not filled while those sick who were expelled are still walking around sick.

 

[Contarini]

PR, I’ve been contemplating this. Your views above might be confusing to some lurkers. What exactly does your church preach or proclaim that does not align with your views or which you don’t agree with? If you say nothing now Matt. That is somewhat the point of my signature of which you were curious about earlier. You responded to treatment. But if a hospital rejects those who are sick and who are not responding to the treatment given, they have less sick people in their midst and have a purer facility that’s for sure. Less sick people = less bacteria, viruses, germs, etc, and thus is purer. But if it means they are satisfied with that even if it makes the hospital smaller, just as a motel with a no vacancy sign as no room, small hospitals can end up having less rooms. Or rooms that are not filled while those sick who were expelled are still walking around sick.

I think your analogy is flawed. I think the better analogy is that some people may disagree with the treatment they are given and try to find a different hospital. It’s not that the hospital rejects them. The hospital is “purer” than it would be if it tried to treat everyone according to the treatment the patients wanted. That might make the hospital popular–until the patients started dying, of course.

Edwin

 

[PRmerger]

No correction was assumed PR since like you lurkers could see as well that what I stated referred to Episcopalians since I wasn’t talking about Catholics. They can see too that I’m not a Catholic since it is not in my “Catholic Answers” profile that I am. We’re cool.

What does your signature mean? I am puzzled and curious!

 

[PRmerger]

Precisely.

That is not an argument that works well against my membership in the Episcopal Church, since I disagree with a number of the stances taken by the denomination. But that’s not to say that my reasons for joining were legitimate ones either. Now I’m in it, though, and breaking communion with fellow-Christians is a serious business.

Edwin

But the point is, Edwin, if you believe that you’re in the Church that Christ started, then you need to *change *your views to conform to Christ’s, right?

 

[PRmerger]

PR, I’ve been contemplating this. Your views above might be confusing to some lurkers.

What exactly does your church preach or proclaim that does not align with your views or which you don’t agree with?

I think I’ve shared this with you before.

I personally think it would be just fine and dandy for a person to divorce and re-marry. I would love to celebrate with my many friends who have had failed marriages and have gotten a seeming new chance at love.

However, I know that Christ has proclaimed that divorce and re-marriage is adultery. And, as such, I concede that the problem is with MY point of view, and not with Christ’s (as if! ) and therefore I conform my views to Christs, and I do not proclaim, “I think the -]Church/-] Christ got it wrong when he said divorce and re-marriage is adultery.”

Another example is I just can’t get my mind around the fact that if people are in love, want to marry, but do not want children, that they ought not marry. But that is what the -]Church/-] Christ has proclaimed regarding marriage.

And, thus, I conform my views to Christ’s and not think that I am right.

I can’t exactly understand why this is so…although I think I am starting to get it when one understands the profound implications of marital love and intentional sterility. They don’t go together. I get that.

I just can’t really bring myself to say, of my own accord, “Well, if you don’t want children, then you ought not get married.”