My Catholic friend wants to be an Episcopalian.

[CMatt25]

Well, that’s a bit different than what I said, KWR. I’m not proposing that you “reject them for their religion.”

Christianity preaches we should love everyone–not reject them.

However, when you state that it isn’t your place to tell others how to worship, that leaves you with no way to tell a white supremacist that his views are wrong.

And in your paradigm you have to accept a person’s beliefs who proclaims, “Our church preaches that women are intellectually inferior to men. And they certainly cannot sit in the same side of church as menfolk. We worship with the women serving the men”.

If you really believe your paradigm, what you are doing is allowing evil to thrive because you cannot identify any belief system as wrong or untrue.

That’s not what you* really* believe, right?

PR, just an aside to something you said… I remember my mother telling me that where she grew up and where there were Polish and Italian Catholic churches literally side by side, the men sat on one side of the aisle and the women on the other. This was many yrs ago though and probably in the Polish one as it was the one I remember my family attending in later yrs. They were neither Polish nor Italian but I guess felt culturally closer to the Polish. But by the time I came of age and remember attending Mass there, both genders were mingled. Then more mingling occured as well yrs later after the separate bldgs were torn down and the two cultures combined into one new church bldg. Haha I’m not sure they could agree on which bldg to use so they built a new one.

But anyway I’m not sure KWR_1 said he/she can’t identify a belief system as right or wrong. I don’t take KWR’s posts to imply he/she believes Wiccans or white supremists are right. As far as I know KRW might well believe there is ultimately one truth.

All KWR seems to be saying is his/her very good Wiccan friend or the white supremist you brought up, or to get back on topic, Episcopalians might also believe their “system” is the right one. It’s belief and faith and KWR simply seems to understand this. And this btw doesn’t mean relativism. No one is saying everyone is going to be right on everything in matters of faith. Just that it is faith and belief. Faithful Catholics have their beliefs too.

 

[PRmerger]

PR, just an aside to something you said… I remember my mother telling me that where she grew up and where there were Polish and Italian Catholic churches literally side by side, the men sat on one side of the aisle and the women on the other.

Yes, that was socially and culturally imposed, not theologically.

But anyway I’m not sure KWR_1 said he/she can’t identify a belief system as right or wrong. I don’t take KWR’s posts to imply he/she believes Wiccans or white supremists are right. As far as I know KRW might well believe there is ultimately one truth.

Perhaps.

But I would like to know exactly what KWR means–and I hope he/she jumps in soon!–when this was said: “It isn’t my place to tell others how to worship or what to believe.”

If he really means this, then what will he say when a co-worker starts bragging about how his church imports 9 year olds from Thailand to marry elders?

If he stands by his statement, he will have to say, “It isn’t my place to tell my co-worker how to worship or what to believe.”

Or am I missing something?

 

[CMatt25]

But I would like to know exactly what KWR means–and I hope he/she jumps in soon!–when this was said: “It isn’t my place to tell others how to worship or what to believe.”

If he really means this, then what will he say when a co-worker starts bragging about how his church imports 9 year olds from Thailand to marry elders?

If he stands by his statement, he will have to say, “It isn’t my place to tell my co-worker how to worship or what to believe.”

Or am I missing something?

Hi PR, I’m not even sure whether your scenario of importing 9 yr old Thai children for the purpose of church elders to marry and I’ll presume then to have intercourse with once a young girl is of age to reproduce, is legal or not. But let me try to explain what you might be missing by using what potentially could be a more common scenario and sticking to the topic of Episcopalians while I’m doing it.

Lets say a co-worker of yours after being made to feel unwelcomed by your church, was having lunch with you. And he said, “You know PR, I have been so welcomed by TEC and am at the most peace in my faith life that I have ever been in my life”. Bob has tears of joy streaming down his face as he tells you this between bites of his chicken caesar salad as he thinks back to the time he felt driven away from your church, not by you PR, but by other Catholics. And you say, but “Bob, you are not receiving the fullness of Christ in TEC. You should worship as I do and believe all that I do!” “Or else Bob, per CCC you could not be saved!” But Bob, perhaps baptized and even confirmed into your church, as hard as he tried to comply, his conscience could not adapt to every Roman Catholic belief. Nor would it allow him to hide his beliefs and pretend he complied. And as a result he was told by other Catholics that he was only a “Catholic” (QMs needed there PR for obvious reasons since that is what Bob was told) and that he is not welcomed to even call himself a member of your church. So then PR, as a result of all of this and more that Bob has been put through, Bob does not listen to your worship and belief advice for him. Not after his experience.

Then what? Are you going to keep telling Bob how you believe he should worship everytime the two of you sit down together at lunch break? How do you go about forcing your belief onto Bob about how he should worship? You can’t.

And while I can’t speak for KWR and I too hope he/she will return to explain to you what was meant instead of you and I continuing the discussion between us, I think this might get to the point of what you are missing.

In my scenario, KWR might be saying it is not his or her place to tell Bob how to worship and what to believe. And KWR would just be happy Bob had found an inner peace and would support Bob along his faith journey.

I hope this helps and if you have any further questions about what KWR meant, that he/she will indeed come back to answer them for you. Happy Independence Day PR.

 

[PRmerger]

Bob has tears of joy streaming down his face as he tells you this between bites of his chicken caesar salad

Ok. Before I go any further and comment about the meaty portion of your post, I have to say the above made me chuckle out loud. Did you really have to insert the chicken caesar salad part?

 

[CMatt25]

Ok. Before I go any further and comment about the meaty portion of your post, I have to say the above made me chuckle out loud. Did you really have to insert the chicken caesar salad part?

Well I only had a banana and lemon water for breakfast, PR, and at that moment had a taste for chicken caesar salad which I like with lots of black pepper on top. :yup: Not going to have one though because of a picnic later. Bob on the otherhand had a tasty lunch.

 

[PRmerger]

HLets say a co-worker of yours after being made to feel unwelcomed by your church, was having lunch with you. And he said, “You know PR, I have been so welcomed by TEC and am at the most peace in my faith life that I have ever been in my life”. Bob has tears of joy streaming down his face as he tells you this between bites of his chicken caesar salad as he thinks back to the time he felt driven away from your church, not by you PR, but by other Catholics.

It would choke me up, seeing the tears of emotion and faith on Bob. And I would nod in agreement that Catholics are the worst at making people feel welcome.

And you say, but "Bob, you are not receiving the fullness of Christ in TEC.

Yes, I would say that.

You should worship as I do and believe all that I do!"

Only in the same way that I would say, “You should add as I do. 2 + 2 will always = 4. I won’t let you say that someone who made you feel welcome taught you that 2 = 2 = 5, because you might use that false teaching and design a bridge that kills someone using that type of wrong data.”

“Or else Bob, per CCC you could not be saved!”

I never talk about who can be saved or who can’t be saved in discussions like this.

I only talk about why someone should embrace the Truth.

But Bob, perhaps baptized and even confirmed into your church, as hard as he tried to comply, his conscience could not adapt to every Roman Catholic belief.

Then I would say that if he’s in a church that happens to agree with everything that he finds palatable and agreeable, then he has created a church in his own image.

I am smart enough to realize that What God Has Declared is not always going to agree with what PR Has Declared. :sad_yes:

Happy Independence Day PR.

Right back at 'cha, Matt. Enjoy your picnic.

We’re going to the pool–the best kind of pool: our neighbor’s pool.

 

[Izdaari]

I think you are wrong. I think it’s going to remain fairly small, but it’s going to be a niche church for educated people who have moderate to liberal social and political views and love liturgical Christianity.

That would seem to describe myself and most of the members at my church. We’re TEC “emergent” Anglo-Catholic. And btw, it’s growing and has a young average age. If that’s a niche, it’s a niche that seems to fit many people in Seattle.

I’m theologically conservative, but in a C.S. Lewis/N.T. Wright kind of way. I like Rob Bell and Brian McLaren but have very little use for Spong.

I don’t really know how people at my church vote, haven’t talked about that with them much, but so far I get the impression the majority are Democrats, with some moderate Republicans and Greens mixed in. I’m a member of the Libertarian Party.

 

[CMatt25]

That would seem to describe myself and most of the members at my church. We’re TEC “emergent” Anglo-Catholic. And btw, it’s growing and has a young average age. If that’s a niche, it’s a niche that seems to fit many people in Seattle.

I’m theologically conservative, but in a C.S. Lewis/N.T. Wright kind of way. I like Rob Bell and Brian McLaren but have very little use for Spong.

I don’t really know how people at my church vote, haven’t talked about that with them much, but so far I get the impression the majority are Democrats, with some moderate Republicans and Greens mixed in. I’m a member of the Libertarian Party.

Never been from what I’ve heard about the state of Washington, in which Seattle is a major city, I’m not surprised there’s a Christian niche for educated people who love Christianity and have moderate to liberal social and political views. Not surprised either if those Christians do vote Democratic, Green, moderate GOP and yet fully welcome a Libertarian in their midst as part of the worshiping family. And apparently visa versa. God bless and peace.

 

[seanman611]

My journey the other way (from Episcopal to Catholic) began because of the EC’s decision to support abortion on demand for any reason – .

TEC does not support abortions “on demand” for any reason.

In 1994, the 71st General Convention of the Episcopal Church reaffirmed that all human life is sacred from its inception until death and that all abortion is regarded as having a tragic dimension. “While we acknowledge that in this country it is the legal right of every woman to have a medically safe abortion,” the resolution stated, “as Christians we believe strongly that if this right is exercised, it should be used only in extreme situations. We emphatically oppose abortion as a means of birth control, family planning, sex selection, or any reason of mere convenience.”

 

[seanman611]

I’m theologically conservative, but in a C.S. Lewis/N.T. Wright kind of way. I like Rob Bell and Brian McLaren but have very little use for Spong.

I don’t really know how people at my church vote, haven’t talked about that with them much, but so far I get the impression the majority are Democrats, with some moderate Republicans and Greens mixed in. I’m a member of the Libertarian Party.

Nice to see a fellow Episcopalian who belongs to the Libertarian Party!

 

[CMatt25]

TEC does not support abortions “on demand” for any reason.

In 1994, the 71st General Convention of the Episcopal Church reaffirmed that all human life is sacred from its inception until death and that all abortion is regarded as having a tragic dimension. “While we acknowledge that in this country it is the legal right of every woman to have a medically safe abortion,” the resolution stated, “as Christians we believe strongly that if this right is exercised, it should be used only in extreme situations. We emphatically oppose abortion as a means of birth control, family planning, sex selection, or any reason of mere convenience.”

Thanks for the information. “On demand” gets loosely thrown around here quite a bit.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I believe you would say that he is returning to Anglicanism. The Episcopal Church is the American branch of the Anglican Communion.

There is no merger between Catholicism and Anglicanism. The Catholic church has allowed Anglican who want to, to become Catholic but retain Anglican worship with some modifications. Married Episcopal/Anglican priests are allowed to be reordained as Catholic priests, and there are new structures outside the normal dioceses that direct these priests.

Nothing has happened with Episcopalians. We remain the same fractious bunch.

I learned on Facebook today that one of my friends is formally entering the Episcopalian Chuch in a few months. I think he converted to Catholicism in high school from Anglicanism, but has decided now in his last year of college to become Episcopalian.

The weird thing about this is that he attends a traditional Catholic college and his mother, who was in the process of taking vows as an eremitic, appears to be supporting him. So do all of the friends who have replied to his post on Facebook. This seems odd to me. I remember that the Anglican Church had some kind of merger with the Catholic Church. Is it possible that something similar happened with the Episcopalians that I’m not aware of? That might explain why everyone is reacting so strangely to his decision.

 

[Izdaari]

Nice to see a fellow Episcopalian who belongs to the Libertarian Party!

/highfive

 

[cmodrmac]

why the focus on human sexuality-and the undercurrent of nastiness-?
the Episcopal Church is composed of many different types of individuals-many fo whom oppose abortion -believe in the real presence and the sacraments

Many of the members are former Roman catholics who left for multiple reasons few of which involve sexuality-though I agree that many left over birth control -

Most Roman Catholics believe that they belong to the one true Church and the Holy Spirit guides the Church-that is fine -it requires faith -just reflect that there are many who do not believe this -it is what it is-

The ECUSA is rich in liturgy and ritual-they are not trying to be Roman Catholic-there are the conservatives (who would be liberal by RC standards) and the liberals -but the majority are in the center-
We pray for the universal Church and that includes both Catholcs and Episcopaleans and I would dare to say Lutherans as well

 

[CMatt25]

Most Roman Catholics believe that they belong to the one true Church and the Holy Spirit guides the Church-that is fine -it requires faith -just reflect that there are many who do not believe this -it is what it is-

What it is, is faith. Just as you said Roman Catholics require faith to believe what they believe. As far as your question why the nastiness, I haven’t a clue if Roman Catholics are secure in their own faith, why Episcopalians draw such negative discussion on these forums. Other than the only thing I can think of is since they believe they know they hold the one truth, it’s part of the process of spreading what they believe is the one true faith. In any case God bless you on your faith journey and peace.