My Conserns about Catholicism

[Chancellare]

After reading the Catachism I find that Salvation is more holistic from a Catholic perspective than protestant. Protestants point to one point in time for salvation. I was saved when “I called on the name of the Lord” or “believed”. I think salvation occures in eternity past with God’s grace towards me and continues through God offering me faith (which the only reasonable response is acceptance). Works are a result of Gods grace and is a reward for faith which continues my salvation which receipt of the reward of heaven is also Salvation. So salvation includes many things. Yet from my perspective I could not do works unless salvation is working in me. The grace given me also gives me a new nature which is expressed in works. If no works no new nature. A creature acts according to its nature. So like James says faith without works is dead. But I don’t know if this is how the Catholic church views it. How does that particpation work? He seemed to say I have to work to ensure salvation not that work was a result of salvation. See my meaning?

Forgive my barging into the discussion.
Your lines of thinking are way better than most cradle Catholics. Jame’s analogy is simple enough. Nothing can die without being alive at the start. I became alive when God’s grace came and I accepted. I die if I don’t participate and work it out up to salvation. I am not intellectually endowed to be able to engage in splitting hairs between a hand-in-hand participation and a salvation as result of. To me, for as long as I participate in God’s redemptive process, the difference between the two seems for too removed from the substantive issues of the struggle.

 

[sambos671]

sambos671;4541851:

Before I answer how does works work with regard to salvation with respect to the Catholic faith? If you die before Extreme Unction do you lose your salvation?"

NO. Who told you that? But, if you can do it, you should want to. If you can’t do it, its not going to jepordize your salvation. God knows if you can do something and refuse, or can’t.
I mean, its a ridiculous premise if you think about it, I have no idea who told you this. Do you realize how many martyrs never had it? How about car accident victims, heart attacks, I mean - you are making this sound obtuse. Hardly anyone would have salvation if that silly rumor had even an ounce of truth to it.


What stopped you? You ask a question, but dont provide enough detail. You would go at the next available opportunity and not partake of the sacraments until doing so. IF its a mortal sin.
You understand the mortal/venial thing?

LOL! On what basis would this happen? Do you mean no absolution for a confessed sin in confession? Or do you mean the person was held against their will in the Church?
What do you mean by wasn’t released? What wasn’t released?
What happened?

.

Its a good thing they have the authority to tell you…
Wait a minute! Is this a priest you are talking to?

Can you be more specific about the senarios you are painting here?

I meant your sin being released or obsolved of. If you die (lets say mortal you had intended to sin but then afterwards your guilt overwhelmed you and you wanted to confess but end up dead before you had a chance?) are you lost?

No they weren’t preist just average catholic lay persons.

You’ll have to forgive me its late and I’m tired (so I’m not on my a game.) but let me give you another example more personal with regards to canon law.

My father never married my mother in the Catholic church. So he could quite easily get an annulment since he married her only at a JP. According to the CC he was not married. What does that make me? (the old term was bastard) He could reasonably be married in the Catholic church because He had not previously been married. Which rule he used again and married another woman at a JP but can honestly tell me he was never married. He used Canon Law to break the law if you get my meaning which also makes me think of the similarities I’m generally infering from the OP. Because the context of these verses is that the Pharisees were using their “fence” not to fulfill the responsibility required to take care of their elderly parents and thus breaking the law. This is also problematic for me.

 

[notsmart]

notsmart;4541882:

I meant your sin being released or obsolved of. **If you die (lets say mortal you had intended to sin **

but then afterwards your guilt overwhelmed you and you wanted to confess but end up dead before you had a chance?) are you lost?

No they weren’t preist just average catholic lay persons.

You’ll have to forgive me its late and I’m tired (so I’m not on my a game.) but let me give you another example more personal with regards to canon law.

My father never married my mother in the Catholic church. So he could quite easily get an annulment since he married her only at a JP. According to the CC he was not married. What does that make me? (the old term was bastard) He could reasonably be married in the Catholic church because He had not previously been married. Which rule he used again and married another woman at a JP but can honestly tell me he was never married. He used Canon Law to break the law if you get my meaning which also makes me think of the similarities I’m generally infering from the OP. Because the context of these verses is that the Pharisees were using their “fence” not to fulfill the responsibility required to take care of their elderly parents and thus breaking the law. This is also problematic for me.

Woah- this post is loaded with misunderstandings!

By the way, you are not a bastard by the church’s eyes.
The issue of declaration of nullity is not what you think in this case! It may not be “easy” as your parents (They were both catholic?) married outside the church. That’s a big Whoopsie.This is a rather complex thing, and you again dont give nearly enough information for even a canon lawyer to give an answer to! Let alone anyone here.
Though, many here will certainly try to…

anyway, wow!

Your first sentence is confusing, because you say intended to sin, but you dont say if a sin occured, what the sin was, ect.
Did you mean to say, intended to confess a sin?
I covered that on an earlier reply. If you missed confession, for good reason, refrain from Holy Communion and go as soon as possible.

The situation you have here is very very complex!

EDIT TO ADD AGAIN-

absolution by a priest, is wonderful!

If I commit a mortal sin, (3 things must occur for that to be the case) I must go to confession at the earliest I can. If I try to do that, have intent to do that, and die on the way to confession-

Guess what?

I did not loose my salvation (assuming that was the only thing going on)

Who is telling you all these things? Your catholic friends sound weird. I would suggest you find more catholic friends that are a bit more on the ball if you know what I mean.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Jesus did not come to take away the laws. Just proper applications were not being applied.

That’s rather hard to swallow. There’s a pretty long list of OT laws that were discarded in the early church. I don’t know how you can argue that a prohibition on eating pork, for example, was not properly applied by the Jews but is properly applied by Christians.

 

[notsmart]

That’s rather hard to swallow. There’s a pretty long list of OT laws that were discarded in the early church. I don’t know how you can argue that a prohibition on eating pork, for example, was not properly applied by the Jews but is properly applied by Christians.

Ugggh.

Not really. Even a Jewish Rabbi boils them all down to one law.
The Rabbi I mention from Benedict’s book, Jesus of Nazereth.
The only thing the rabbi could not accept was one thing.
The one law, Plus Jesus.

He could go with the one law.

Just not and Jesus.

(we have 2, Love God , love neighbor)

They consider those 2 as one.

But, we consider Jesus as God.

That’s where he parts ways.

You can’t confuse DIETARY laws, with the LAW.

Thats the part that confused me too, until I read it.

 

[sambos671]

sambos671;4541923:

Woah- this post is loaded with misunderstandings!

By the way, you are not a bastard by the church’s eyes.
The issue of declaration of nullity is not what you think in this case! It may not be “easy” as your parents (They were both catholic?) married outside the church. That’s a big Whoopsie.This is a rather complex thing, and you again dont give nearly enough information for even a canon lawyer to give an answer to! Let alone anyone here.
Though, many here will certainly try to…

anyway, wow!

Your first sentence is confusing, because you say intended to sin, but you dont say if a sin occured, what the sin was, ect.
Did you mean to say, intended to confess a sin?
I covered that on an earlier reply. If you missed confession, for good reason, refrain from Holy Communion and go as soon as possible.

The situation you have here is very very complex!

Like I said I’m tired. the first part. lets say I robbed a bank willingly then felt I needed to shoot the guard ( I hate making up senarios but you want detail and the devil is in the details and I don’t want to loose the forest for the trees). I kill the guard. Later it occures to me that I’ve commited an egregious sin and will pay for it in eternity and my life of Crime has been wrong. I want to turn around and be different. At that point I get hit by a car and die.

My Father and Mother are both Catholic. They sined I was conceived. My father thought he should leave my mother to her own devices but a priest told him that was wrong (I’m named after a preist btw). So he took her to the JP but not the church and married her there. a few years after I was born he got an annulment and seperated from my mother. My father then married another woman (non-catholic) at a JP and seperated from her as well. He tells me he’s never been married according to the church though he’s had children by both women. Enough personal info? I don’t really like discussing this but since this is part of my hesitation towards the chruch and deals with my salvation I’ll bring it up honestly. So I may indeed be a bastard. My mother never re-married but dabbled in tarot cards and budhism and a slew of other things but proudly claims the catholic church so much so when I she had dinner with my family and my kids prayed she took pains to show them the sign of the cross saying I’m Catholic. Though My kids have a better knowledge of the Lord than she did and memorized much more scripture. They were kind of confused by her display and prayed the Pater Noster in latin to make her fell comfortable.

 

[Chancellare]

notsmart;4541950:

Like I said I’m tired. the first part. lets say I robbed a bank willingly then felt I needed to shoot the guard ( I hate making up senarios but you want detail and the devil is in the details and I don’t want to loose the forest for the trees). I kill the guard. Later it occures to me that I’ve commited an egregious sin and will pay for it in eternity and my life of Crime has been wrong. I want to turn around and be different. At that point I get hit by a car and die.

God’s mercy is greater than our understanding of the canon law and the canon law itself. And He sees our heart’s intents long before we were born. Therefore, dying before making one last confession is a question of God looking into our heart’s intent when all else fail to occur on our side. Besides, we can always utter a few phrases or even a thought of contrition before the last gasp, right?

 

[sambos671]

sambos671;4541999:

God’s mercy is greater than our understanding of the canon law and the canon law itself. And He sees our heart’s intents long before we were born. Therefore, dying before making one last confession is a question of God looking into our heart’s intent when all else fail to occur on our side. Besides, we can always utter a few phrases or even a thought of contrition before the last gasp, right?

Not necissarily. And there is a lot of speculation with this senario. What about practical christianity?

 

[notsmart]

Like I said I’m tired. the first part. lets say I robbed a bank willingly then felt I needed to shoot the guard ( I hate making up senarios but you want detail and the devil is in the details and I don’t want to loose the forest for the trees). I kill the guard. Later it occures to me that I’ve commited an egregious sin and will pay for it in eternity and my life of Crime has been wrong. I want to turn around and be different.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

"… He tells me he’s never been married according to the church though he’s had children by both women. … So I may indeed be a bastard.

Your father is correct in saying he was not married according to the church, that is, he did not have a sacramental marriage. But
he was civilly married! Therefore, you are not a bastard.

 

[notsmart]

He is not correct in saying he was not married according to the church. A natural non sacramental marriage is a natural non sacramental marriage. It still needs to be declared null. Sambos says he got an “annulment” meaning a declaration of nullity for the FIRST marriage.
He does not say a thing about the second natural marriage, which also would need a declaration of nullity.
He can’t just divorce wife number 2 and get married to a number 3 sacramentally in the church without it.

 

[sambos671]

sambos671;4541999:

I am going to assume you were not baptised when you committed your crime spree.
I am also going to assume you did not have a properly formed conscience when you commited your crime spree, nor did you ever before that time, Okay?

For the sake of the argument, lets say I was baptised as a child and knew right from wrong. But as you know one sin leads to another and I ended up in this position. You do know this is a totally hypothetical situation to bring out the point of the Catholic view of Salvation.

The question is, did you? Why or why not?
What made you feel remorse? Conscience, Holy Spirit, you choose.

Their sin, is not unforgiveable. Your birth was a joyous occasion for God who knew you in the womb! Even before then!
You are a child of God you do know that?

I’m not stuggeling with my own personal worth to God. I know where I stand with him and that I’m his Child. I’m bringing this matter up to look at my conserns brought up in the OP.

Didn’t they know that was a sin also? They could have married in the church after reconcilling themselves! My oh my.
I hope they both repented thereafter, and are reconcilled with the church!

Very probably. Interestingly, My father, never remarried after his second wife. And contributes a lot of funds to several Catholic Charities.

I am sorry. Not wanting to speculate on how that happened, lets leave that one go. But, you may want to research declaration of nullity if you have such a desire to. Not knowing how this was granted, I would rather not comment.

I have spoken with a priest who specializes in just that aspect of Canon Law and says that Annulment was valid.

Lord, have mercy on us all! .

Yes and my point with the OP.

Your father is so sadly mistaken, its painful to hear how much so.
There is a natural marriage and a sacramental one. Maybe he meant to say he never had a sacramental marriage in the church.

Not exactly a good thing for him.
I pray he has repented, and been absolved for such…

Thats exactly what he thinks yet for him that is the only real marriage acceptable to God.

Its really not enough info to give you the clarity you need, but I do appreciate your being so honest, its truly a sad story. But you are only a Joy in all this mess, hear me? A PURE JOY.
A BLESSING. Not a bastard by ANY means!
NO! NO! and, again NO!

I use the term for the catagory it demonstrates not as a reflection of my character. Children born out of wedlock are Bastards. But I’ll use illigitament if it sounds better…

You see the correlation between what Jesus was saying between the “fence” around the law but breaking it. And Why I wonder if the RCC has inadvertantly done the same thing.

 

[notsmart]

Sambos,

The church tells us that children from a marriage that was annulled are NOT bastards, because even though the marriage was ended civilly and declared null by the church, this DOES not traslate to the children being so called “bastards”
Why hasnt your “expert” in canon law not told you this major fact?

Maybe he is not really who he claims to be to not know that biggie.

 

[sambos671]

Sambos,

The church tells us that children from a marriage that was annulled are NOT bastards, because even though the marriage was ended civilly and declared null by the church, this DOES not traslate to the children being so called “bastards”
Why hasnt your “expert” in canon law not told you this major fact?

Maybe he is not really who he claims to be to not know that biggie.

No he agrees with you. He said you’re not and acknowledges that it was a civil union but still shy of meeting Gods requirements of marriage. He never gave an explination as to why I wouldn’t be illigitament in the church. I think he just said that for the principle of being nice. But it still is an issue with the OP.

 

[notsmart]

There are other things you mention Sambos, that makes me wonder more…

I hate picking apart every sentence you type to try and clear up the myriad of misunderstandings here, but it seems I must because each post you type adds more to the misconception pile!

I have more questions if you are still willing to share more.

One is, why would it matter to the church or anyone if your father is contributing to the church or its organizations?

He cant buy his way around anything.
Also, why does he believe his first marriage to be so important (interesting topic!) when he had a declaration of nullity?

This is a real moral dillemma for your father now. Is your mother still alive?

 

[notsmart]

No he agrees with you. He said you’re not and acknowledges that it was a civil union but still shy of meeting Gods requirements of marriage. He never gave an explination as to why I wouldn’t be illigitament in the church. I think he just said that for the principle of being nice. But it still is an issue with the OP.

Okay, so he says you are legitamate, but you don’t believe him?
Is that right?
And you just wish to be illigitamate all on your very own?

 

[sambos671]

There are other things you mention Sambos, that makes me wonder more…

I hate picking apart every sentence you type to try and clear up the myriad of misunderstandings here, but it seems I must because each post you type adds more to the misconception pile!

I have more questions if you are still willing to share more.

One is, why would it matter to the church or anyone if your father is contributing to the church or its organizations?

He cant buy his way around anything.
Also, why does he believe his first marriage to be so important (interesting topic!) when he had a declaration of nullity?

This is a real moral dillemma for your father now. Is your mother still alive?

I think you are misunderstanding me. My father had done what he has. He knows his sins. I’m sure he’s repented but attempts to recompense in the only way he understands which is giving money to orphanages, nuns, etc… He often has masses said on his behalf. These are his applications of Catholicism. My contention with the OP is there an indemic problem that closely relates to what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 23? He totally disregards his first marriage and I bring it up because of the question at hand. My mother is still alive. My father is still alive and they want nothing to do with each other. Which is probably for the best. It is God’s grace alone that my marriage is wonderful or that I even got married to begin with. However, I attribute that to being a protestant because had I remained a Catholic at 15 I would have likely followed my fathers footsteps or worse.

 

[notsmart]

Did your father ever get a declaration of nullity for his second non sacramental marriage?
If he has not, there are more problems here.
You think just being catholic would have made you just like your father?

I think I am unsubscribing now.

I think you are misunderstanding me. My father had done what he has. He knows his sins. I’m sure he’s repented but attempts to recompense in the only way he understands which is giving money to orphanages, nuns, etc… He often has masses said on his behalf. These are his applications of Catholicism. My contention with the OP is there an indemic problem that closely relates to what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 23? He totally disregards his first marriage and I bring it up because of the question at hand. My mother is still alive. My father is still alive and they want nothing to do with each other. Which is probably for the best. It is God’s grace alone that my marriage is wonderful or that I even got married to begin with. However, I attribute that to being a protestant because had I remained a Catholic at 15 I would have likely followed my fathers footsteps or worse.

 

[sambos671]

Okay, so he says you are legitamate, but you don’t believe him?
Is that right?
And you just wish to be illigitamate all on your very own?

You’re reading to much into it. I know I’m legitamate as are people whether they were born in a sacramental marriage or not.

 

[sambos671]

Did your father ever get a declaration of nullity for his second non sacramental marriage?
If he has not, there are more problems here.
You think just being catholic would have made you just like your father?

I think I am unsubscribing now.

I don’t know if he did from his second marriage. I never asked him.