My Conserns about Catholicism

[notsmart]

You’re reading to much into it. I know I’m legitamate as are people whether they were born in a sacramental marriage or not.

My apologies, I just can’t bring myself to use that term even if some would. Sorry.

 

[sambos671]

Thats a seriously good question that deserves a better answer than I can give, but, I think this is the crux:

But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Seems like He is saying their processes are burdensome for no reason other than to be burdensome. There is no justice mercy or faithfullness in their actions. It’s all fillibuster and doom and gloom. The complete opposite to the message of Love He was bringing, which are found in all the churches sacraments and actions.

Yet they think that as long as they are able to confess during the Sacrament of Extreme Unction they’re good to go? Or like my own family. Confession frees you up to take the Eucharist only to sin some more?

With respect, anyone who thinks like this is not a catholic. That is NOT what the catholic church teaches. I would not like to be doing the paperwork for anyone that went to confession on saturday with the clear intention of sinning monday and thinking no sweat I’ll square it all next saturday. Not on Im afraid.

Hi Ag not I for the most part would agree with you save this: Have you ever read canon law?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. QUOTE]

Good questions.

I just wanted to change the bold words in your quote above to give it a more Catholic reading:

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So ****you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

 

[guanophore]

I have learned more about Catholic Doctrine in the last year then I ever new growing up Catholic for 15 years.

The same is true for me. CAF has also helped me a lot.

  So I've come to a point in my journey of faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ where I'm taking deep consideration of Catholicism.

God bless you for your attitude! I wish more people came here with this heart! I am sure that the Spirit of God will lead you into all truth.

ld like to find people to discuss some of them here for a couple of reasons. 1) To obtain views points and information for more thorough review and assist in my decision making process. 2) To ease my fears associated with returning.

That’s us!

 From the above statement we must subtract the notion that the Catholic Church is creating a "fence" to protect Torah.  However, I wonder if it replaced with a similar concept.  A deliberateness in devotion to create a fence for the individual Catholic's Salvation.

Yes, I think it is fundamentally the same. To fence the Torah is to guard theWay of God or the Rule of Life which God intended to govern our days on earth. For Catholics, we are no longer under Law, but under Grace. The Law of Christ (Love) is now our governing principle, and the Church protects the preservation of the life of grace in the soul.

Moses’ seat seems to support what the Mishna’s rabbis state with respect to Oral Tradition. But look at his response to it. He seems to think that their efforts caused more bondage than should be the case. Primarily because while “protecting” the law they broke it because So their devotion missed the more important matters.

This is true. But we note He affirmed Moses’ seat, and told the disciples to “do all they tell you”. This is a good principle to follow also with the Church. We cannot go astray when we are obedient.

How many Catholics follow the devotions and participate in the Sacraments are missing the point because they continue in sin by a multitude of ways.

Too many to count, I am sure.

Yet they think that as long as they are able to confess during the Sacrament of Extreme Unction they’re good to go?

I don’t think this is the case. I think, for most Catholics who are “missing the point”, they have rationalized sin to themselves, and don’t believe they are doing wrong at all. their consciences are seared, as with a hot iron.

 Or like my own family.  Confession frees you up to take the Eucharist only to sin some more?  Really, how different is this than the Pharisees Jesus berates in his Seven Woes?

It is a sad fact that human beings are corrupt. To that extent, not much has changed in the last 20 years.

Have the Catholics followed the same path as these Pharisees?  Have devotions replaced the "fence" to protect Salvation?  I wonder.

Rather than wonder about this for others, would it not be more useful to wonder only about yourself? It seems clear from reading your posts that this is not the case with you. So, if you are clear of this error, would you allow others who have fallen into error affect your decision?

Yes this is not how catholics should think. But my experience tells me this is more the case than not. Though it is unfair since my experience is limited only to those I’ve come in contact with. Many Catholics are like Many Jews born into the faith but not really bought into it. That’s how I see it and I admit I’m biased from my experience.

Well, don’t base your decision on the worst examples of it. Since you know this is not what the Church teaches, go with the Teaching, and not the “Judas”.

Yet some catholics indicate the ease with which to lose the gift of salvation. So that devotions are required with proper formulae. Which makes me wonder at the correlation.

There are values to devotions, and pious practices can help preserve the soul. However, it is up to God to finish the work He has begun in us. He is the one who began it, and He is faithful to complete it. All we need do is cooperate with His plan. If the devotions assist that, good. One can practice devotions without having the faith in God to hold us in the palm of His hand. I don’t think these practices have much value.

I don’t understand your last sentence. I agree with your begining sentiments. But what about your last sentence do you mean that the Catholic I’m referring to is not properly Catechized?

Yes. In fact, there is a whole generation of Latin Rite American Catholics who were very poorly catechized. That is why I say, don’t look so much to the individuals, but to what the Church actually teaches.

 

[guanophore]

I simplified the discussion. The discussion actually focused on works. The discussion centered around participation to earn ones salvation. I haven’t heard a satisfactory explination of the relationship with works to salvation with regards to operation.

Don’t jump to conclusions just yet. After reading the Catachism I find that Salvation is more holistic from a Catholic perspective than protestant. Protestants point to one point in time for salvation. I was saved when “I called on the name of the Lord” or “believed”. I think salvation occures in eternity past with God’s grace towards me and continues through God offering me faith (which the only reasonable response is acceptance). Works are a result of Gods grace and is a reward for faith which continues my salvation which receipt of the reward of heaven is also Salvation. So salvation includes many things. Yet from my perspective I could not do works unless salvation is working in me. The grace given me also gives me a new nature which is expressed in works. If no works no new nature. A creature acts according to its nature. So like James says faith without works is dead. But I don’t know if this is how the Catholic church views it.

Sounds pretty Catholic to me!

How does that particpation work? He seemed to say I have to work to ensure salvation not that work was a result of salvation. See my meaning?

I think you have explained it well, and you have been well informed by the Catechism. Saving faith is faith that works, and the good deeds that flow from that saving grace are, indeed, evidence of our new nature, born from above by water and spirit. We don’t work “for” salvation, but work “out” the salvation that has been placed within us when we were made new creatures in Christ. We must “preserve” what has been placed within us, but even that we do only by the grace of God. We are to guard that which has been entrusted to us.

Before I answer how does works work with regard to salvation with respect to the Catholic faith? If you die before Extreme Unction do you lose your salvation? What if you missed confession after having sinned though you intended. It wasn’t been released by the Church therefore are you then condemn if then you die? Catholics I’ve spoken to would say yes. What does the church teach with regards to this? If this is the case then this would be too much a burden for me to bare.

Most Catholics die without extreme unction, and no, this does not cause one to “lose” salvation. What matters is whether one is in a state of grace-right relationship with God. God is our final judge, and only he knows the heart of a person, and whether or not they are really repentant. Have you read the catechism on repentance/confession yet? If you do everything in your power to remain in right standing with God, then you can entrust your soul to a faithful creator. God is not going to ask you to do something that is “too much of a burden to bear”. Confession is a sacrament of great liberation, not an enslavement. There are no better words to hear when one has fallen into sin as “You are forgiven”.

 

[guanophore]

I want to turn around and be different.

look up perfect confession, and I think you will find your answer.

. He tells me he’s never been married according to the church though he’s had children by both women.

Don’t believe everything you hear!

I don’t really like discussing this but since this is part of my hesitation towards the chruch and deals with my salvation I’ll bring it up honestly. So I may indeed be a bastard.

No, it really does not impact your salvation at all. It deals with your father’s. God does not judge you for another’s wrongdoing. Just don’t follow his example! “bastard” is actually a civil/political/economic term and not a theological one. From the Church’s point of view, the circumstances of your birth are irrelvant. Such terms had more relevance in a society that was monarchial and ruled by a class of persons defined by birth status. It has no relevance in modern day America.

My mother never re-married but dabbled in tarot cards and budhism and a slew of other things but proudly claims the catholic church so much so when I she had dinner with my family and my kids prayed she took pains to show them the sign of the cross saying I’m Catholic. Though My kids have a better knowledge of the Lord than she did and memorized much more scripture. They were kind of confused by her display and prayed the Pater Noster in latin to make her fell comfortable.

Bless their hearts, and yours. I am glad you can see that such practices are not an authentic expression of Christain faith, even though certain persons may claim they are.

What about practical christianity?

What about it? don’t you agree that one should live with an attitude of repentance about dead works (sins)?

 

[guanophore]

For the sake of the argument, lets say I was baptised as a child and knew right from wrong. But as you know one sin leads to another and I ended up in this position. You do know this is a totally hypothetical situation to bring out the point of the Catholic view of Salvation.

Only God can judge a perfect repentant heart.

I'm not stuggeling with my own personal worth to God.

We do n’t want you going around with the falsehood that the Church thinks you are a bastard.

Very probably. Interestingly, My father, never remarried after his second wife. And contributes a lot of funds to several Catholic Charities.

Penance is good.

Yes and my point with the OP.
Thats exactly what he thinks yet for him that is the only real marriage acceptable to God.

I would say, focus on what the Church teaches about sacramental marriage. Read JPII’s theology of the body. This would be a better use of your time, rather than sorting out incidences of people that have fallen short of the ideal.

You see the correlation between what Jesus was saying between the “fence” around the law but breaking it. And Why I wonder if the RCC has inadvertantly done the same thing.

I see your point. However, I think you will find that what you have experienced is not what the Church teaches.

I think you are misunderstanding me. My father had done what he has. He knows his sins. I’m sure he’s repented but attempts to recompense in the only way he understands which is giving money to orphanages, nuns, etc… He often has masses said on his behalf. These are his applications of Catholicism.

If you are sure that he has repented, is not this what matters most? What type of reparation / restoration do you think would be more fitting than what he is doing now?

My contention with the OP is there an indemic problem that closely relates to what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 23? He totally disregards his first marriage and I bring it up because of the question at hand. My mother is still alive. My father is still alive and they want nothing to do with each other. Which is probably for the best.

Are you thinking that returning to the first marriage and making it what God intended is more proper than other “good works”?

It is God's grace alone that my marriage is wonderful or that I even got married to begin with.  However, I attribute that to being a protestant because had I remained a Catholic at 15 I would have likely followed my fathers footsteps or worse.

I am pleased that the grace of God, present in your life since your baptism, preserved and protected you.

 

[sambos671]

Thanks for your statements. Guanphore. It still seems that there is a great divergence for many Catholics and Catholics who believe. If the New Covenant is at work in baptism. Ie… you’re born again when baptized, then why are so many Catholics at war with God and acceptably (not to the church but to themselves) sinning?

 

[guanophore]

Thanks for your statements. Guanphore. It still seems that there is a great divergence for many Catholics and Catholics who believe. If the New Covenant is at work in baptism. Ie… you’re born again when baptized, then why are so many Catholics at war with God and acceptably (not to the church but to themselves) sinning?

They have fallen from grace, and spurned the blood of the covenant. Their consciences have been seared as with a hot iron, and their impenitent hearts have been hardened against the Spirit of Grace. There remains no sacrifice for them.

 

[sambos671]

They have fallen from grace, and spurned the blood of the covenant. Their consciences have been seared as with a hot iron, and their impenitent hearts have been hardened against the Spirit of Grace. There remains no sacrifice for them.

They may have, however, I believe God can still reach them. At issue is the prevelance. If I return to the Catholic Church then I have conserns for my children. I will do my best to raise them correctly with the proper understanding of the Lord. But to be Christian is to be in community and if the community members are generally seared then we have a problem.

 

[guanophore]

They may have, however, I believe God can still reach them. At issue is the prevelance. If I return to the Catholic Church then I have conserns for my children. I will do my best to raise them correctly with the proper understanding of the Lord. But to be Christian is to be in community and if the community members are generally seared then we have a problem.

I agree, God desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. I pray that God will lead you to faithful families who live their faith in purity, and can provide you with true Christian fellowship.

 

[Contarini]

Moses’ seat seems to support what the Mishna’s rabbis state with respect to Oral Tradition. But look at his response to it. He seems to think that their efforts caused more bondage than should be the case. Primarily because while “protecting” the law they broke it

How did they break it? As far as I know, the concrete example Jesus gave in Mark 7/Matt. 15 does not match up with anything found in the Talmud. Clearly Jesus was criticizing some rabbis who were not representative of the teachings eventually codified as part of rabbinic Judaism. I think you are criticizing Catholicism based on a false stereotype of rabbinic Judaism.

That being said, Christians do have a different approach to ethics–one based more on general principles and less on specific regulations. And if you see that as a major Christian/Jewish dividing point, then clearly Catholics are closer to Judaism on this point than Protestants are. Whether that’s a bad thing or not remains to be debated.

Edwin

 

[notsmart]

How did they break it? As far as I know, the concrete example Jesus gave in Mark 7/Matt. 15 does not match up with anything found in the Talmud. Clearly Jesus was criticizing some rabbis who were not representative of the teachings eventually codified as part of rabbinic Judaism. I think you are criticizing Catholicism based on a false stereotype of rabbinic Judaism.

That being said, Christians do have a different approach to ethics–one based more on general principles and less on specific regulations. And if you see that as a major Christian/Jewish dividing point, then clearly Catholics are closer to Judaism on this point than Protestants are. Whether that’s a bad thing or not remains to be debated.

Edwin

I love your posts Edwin!

You are such a blessing to my journey.